Leica II vs. III Question

[JimG]

I have determined that for some unknown reason I must own a black Leica II. My question is how doe's the II compare functionaly with the III? I use to have a III with a 1/500 sec. max. speed but I have never used a II.

[Mike Kovacs]

Really, not to be facetious, but is it not identical save the deletion of slow speeds? Both look darned fine in black paint IMO.

[Rich Silfver]

Buy a black III (F).....

[Mike Kovacs]

Schweet!

[JimG]

Mussssst have Luigi 1/2 case......... Mike. I did'nt know that. I guess it's just the way the ones I have seen look. Actually like alot like Rich's III above. Is there a differance in prices between the two?

[Mike Kovacs]

Sorry can't comment on price - I can't really claim to be much of a Leica expert. Rarity and condition seems to drive Leica prices more than anything tangible.

[John Shriver]

The other important difference between II and III is that the II has a 1X magnification on the rangefinder, and the III has a 1.5X magnification. So the III is more accurate focusing, and easier to focus. The III is the last screwmount model where black paint is reasonably common. But both black and chrome were in the price list at least through the IIIb, with black being cheaper!

[doubs43]

Given the choice, I'd opt for the III with the slow shutter speeds. The II is fine for most situations but not when only a slower speed will work.

Walker

[je2a3]

Originally Posted by JimG

Mussssst have Luigi 1/2 case......... Mike. I did'nt know that. I guess it's just the way the ones I have seen look. Actually like alot like Rich's III above. Is there a differance in prices between the two?

I would think a black III [F] go for more than a II. As others have noted it has a 1:1 RF image, no slow speeds [easier to DIY] and no strap lugs. I enjoy using mine while strolling/sighteeing with slower and lighter lenses like an Elmar or Industar clones, WA and etc.

I paid ~ $150 for a user black body which needed some TLC/CLA and it came with a barely usable [f6.3 or smaller] nickel Summar that had fungus and separation. With a nickel Elmar they can go over $300 "as-is". Servicing is within the realm of DIY after practicing on early Fed or Zorki which is very similar mechanically.

Attached is a picture of my constant companion Leica II with a Fed 50/3.5.

Good luck with your decision!

Joseph

[JimG]

Thanks' for your post Joseph. While I can understand the value of the slower speeds option I think my budget is more in line with the Leica II prices.

[laptoprob]

Do remember the II(F) is not the same as the IIf. For some obscure reason there are two sets of type numbering around. The IIf is the same as the IIIf save the slow speeds and a minor detail in the accessory shoe and - I think - the number of screws that attach the body shell.
Both have 1,5 magnification.
The II(F) and III(F) are the IIc and IIIc if I am right. There may be more differences between those two models.

[doubs43]

Originally Posted by laptoprob

The II(F) and III(F) are the IIc and IIIc if I am right. There may be more differences between those two models.

Leitz used both a number AND a letter designation on most of the early cameras. The Model II was also designated the Model D while the III was also the Model F. The first Leica was called both the Model I and the Model A.

The Model IIIa was also the Model G while the IIIb was the Model G, 1938.

Beginning with the IIIc in 1940, the first of the cast-body models, the second, or single letter designations, were dropped. Thus the Model IIIc is the IIIc and is only known by that designation. The Model IIc didn't appear until after the war.

Walker

[outfitter]

Originally Posted by je2a3

Attached is a picture of my constant companion Leica II with a Fed 50/3.5.

Joseph

The thumbnail photo is not* a Leica but a black painted Soviet Fed 1 - note the collar around the shutter release button.

Michael

* I should say "may not be" a Leica - the frame around the viewfinder window was only used on the rare Fed 1a - the later ones used a plain rectangle - while the collar started after the war on the Fed 1g. Was that sort of collar some sort of an after market add on for the Leica II? Knowledgeable dealers have told me that very good fakes made in the FSU and parts of the old "Eastern Block" - all based on Fed cameras - have all but ruined the market in Leica rarities (and I’m not talking about obviously fantasy fakes sold cheaply on eBay).

[outfitter]

Here is a current Ebay listing: http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Leica-II...QQcmdZViewItem

Note the small circle in the middle of the back. On the early Feds (I have one as early as serial #5xxx and as late as 15xxx) that circle covers a hole used for setting the body registration. While I haven't collected Leicas in over 20 years I don't recall such a hole in real Leica IIs. Anyhow the point with the Leica II is be aware that there are excellant fakes based on early Feds and that some of them go back to the 1930s. There are also bad fakes based on late Feds and Zorkis - remember engraving and paint are cheap.

Michael

[je2a3]

Originally Posted by outfitter

Here is a current Ebay listing: http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Leica-II...QQcmdZViewItem

Note the small circle in the middle of the back. On the early Feds (I have one as early as serial #5xxx and as late as 15xxx) that circle covers a hole used for setting the body registration. While I haven't collected Leicas in over 20 years I don't recall such a hole in real Leica IIs. Anyhow the point with the Leica II is be aware that there are excellant fakes based on early Feds and that some of them go back to the 1930s. There are also bad fakes based on late Feds and Zorkis - remember engraving and paint are cheap.

Michael

Hi Michael,

Based on the serial # 71605 My Leica II [D] is from ~ 1932, the year it was introduced. It does have the hole in the back that sets film registration which was carried over from earlier bodies [Leica A & some Cs] that didn't have the standard 28.8mm film to lens flange registration and were adjusted at Wetzlar for a particular lens. When those bodies ran out by the mid 30s Leitz omitted the hole. The lens flange on this unit as well as the ebay listing has the "0" at 12 o'clock denoting a standard film registration, found in most pre-WWII units. It also has a roller wheel for the RF sensor while FSU clones have the "pointy thing or wedge".

The cone shape shutter release guard is an early attempt on "soft release" [copied by the post war Fed 1g] and the shutter dial is from a later Leica II/III vintage which is chrome instead of nickel. I don't know whether the 1st type Fed also used nickel fittings but nickel against brassed black paint is one of the alluring qualities of these early models. OK, the half case is a Zorki and the lens attached is a Fed I-10 .

If you do have an early black Fed 1 with a "notched" VF window, you are a lucky guy since this is even more valuable than a Leica II due to scarcity.

I've serviced a few early Feds and Zorkis, the quality of internal construction and materials used in a Leica II is quite a few notches above the FSU clones , thus a Leica is smoother overall in operation. Likewise the ebay link you attached is a genuine Leica II IMHO albeit too pricy for the condition, thus no bids. Maybe if it had a nickel Elmar it would generate more interest.

Although some parts from a Zorki or Fed can be used to restore a Leica, tiny little things like the RF adjust screw has a different thread on a Leica. I just fitted a new screw on this baby purchased from DAG since the original screw head was stripped. I documented my restoration of 71605 as well as compared internal construction to Zorkis and Feds if you want to see the difference and similarity.

Joseph

[doubs43]

Originally Posted by outfitter

The thumbnail photo is not* a Leica but a black painted Soviet Fed 1 - note the collar around the shutter release button. Michael

As I've noted elsewhere, the collar on a Leica is not uncommon and I've seen many of them. I'd look for additional clues before declaring it a Zorki or FED based solely on the collar.

Walker

[outfitter]

Joseph,

Many thanks for the inofrmation. Your site is a gem; I can even see just by the photos the better finish of the Leitz gears and other internal parts. BTW even the early Feds had chrome plating on the knowbs and speed dial (my oldest has the first type engraving and no accessory shoe) but the eye piece bezels were black paint over brass.

Michael

[je2a3]

Originally Posted by outfitter

Joseph,

BTW even the early Feds had chrome plating on the knowbs and speed dial (my oldest has the first type engraving and no accessory shoe) but the eye piece bezels were black paint over brass.

Michael

Thanks for the kind words and also for the valuable bit about chrome fittings on an early black paint Fed. That's a collector piece you have there!

Regards,

Joseph

[JimG]

Joseph, Great info. at that link. Very useful for understanding how these cameras work.

[je2a3]

Originally Posted by JimG

Joseph, Great info. at that link. Very useful for understanding how these cameras work.

Again thanks for the kind words! I'm just trying to share my experience tinkering with cameras based on what I've learned from hanging out here and other internet sites that deal with Leicas and FSU clones.

Joseph