An Open Letter......

[Rick Waldroup]

I joined this forum in 2004 and thought to myself "Now here is something unique!" A forum about rangefinder cameras and the people who use them. When I first joined, it seemed as though we could discuss any number of things as long as we did it in a civil manner. For about the past year or so, that has seemed to change. There has become less tolerance for some who voice a different opinion or some who are a little offbeat. As a result, some fine members have left the forum. And that is a shame.
There have been several threads the last couple of days about the demise of Frank G on this forum. Some are glad to see him go and others are not and there are probably some who could care less. I remember last year when Roger Hicks joined the forum. That was great news as Roger is a well known and very respected photography writer. It wasn't long though before Roger was posting his last post, in effect saying that he had apparently ruffled some feathers and would no longer be posting. That was a real loss for the fourm. But once again, some were glad to see him go, others were not, and some could care less.
There have been others to leave this fine forum. Desmo comes to mind and I feel that others will be leaving soon or be banned. And the people who could care less about who comes and goes are the ones that worry me. They will not care until perhaps it is them that is feeling slighted or unwanted. Then they will speak up, but by then, there may be no one left who will care.
The mods have now resorted to threats of bans,deleting threads, simply locking threads, not because they have become offensive, but because they have become tiresome to the moderators. Photography is an all-encomposing art. It reaches across boundaries and involves people of all walks of life. It brings together people of all races and origins- it truly is a universal language, much like music . Photography invites discussion, invites debate, invites people to use their minds and open their souls. It may be the most unique visual medium in the world. To stifle the creative juices that flow from this fountain is wrong.
When you ask someone what got them into photography, almost as one they will say that it was an outlet to create, to free their minds, to make them think. There is more to this wonderful medium than just gearhead talk. I have found most photographers to be very bright and creative people and it is very hard to control those types of people. Would we have it any other way? All I am asking for is a little restraint from the forum members and the mods. I hope that we can continue to discuss topics not completely related to photography in a civil manner and I hope the mods have enough common sense to let the members speak their mind. If not, this forum will turn into a boring, sterile, and bland website that will be populated by only a few, the ones who complain to the mods anytime a topic vears off the beaten path, the ones who complain anytime someone makes a remark they don't agree with, in short they will be the only ones left on the forum and suddenly, to their surprise, they might discover they may have been in the minority all along.

[Rick Waldroup]

My apologies if I did not post this in the right forum. I do not start many new threads.

[FrankS]

I think that the forum moderator(s) have generally been extremely tolerant of off-topic threads and have given members who have been less than civil ample advice and warnings on their behaviour. Some couldn't stand the imposition of standards of ettiquette on their behaviour and have chosen to leave. Only one person has been banned in these 2 years of operation. I for one, don't see a problem.The folks who chose to leave or were banned did so not because they had a different opinion, but because they simply could not express them in a civil manner after being given much opportunity and direction to change.

[MP Guy]

To All. Please read and keep this in mind.

If you want to discuss off topic threads, there is a forum spefic to this. "And now for something completely different"

I will not block, lock or delete a thread UNLESS it is using vulgar language addressed to others. I don't give a harry rats a** if people want to insult eachother. Just dont use profanity on my forum. Its not much to ask. Someone was banned for his outright use of vulgar language towards other users.

Use PM, email and I don't care. but DO NOT use it on an open forum. The only exception is the forum "Amd noe for something completely different" you can insult eachother there and have flame wars. But again, do not use vulgar language or the thread will be deleted. You can insult eachother there without fear of being banned.

I don't know what the specific issues were that resulted in the banning - but this doesn't mean I "don't care".

I agree with Frank S. that I have found the mods (particularly Joe) to be very accomodating and patient. So, in absence of knowing all the "particulars" I respect and accept their judgement in this matter - even if it is an "unhappy outcome".

I do think that the mods need to be mindful that in attempting to maintain "order" on the site, they should not become a "chilling factor" to reasonably expressed differences of opinion. At this point, I think they are balancing these pressures quite well - and I certainly do not envy them their task.

[dcsang]

Ya know.. I've said it before and I'll say it again; if this was my site, I could do whatever pleases me. I could cuss till the cows come home; I could belittle others, I could swagger with bravado and think myself cock of the walk; but guess what; it's NOT my site. I really think people forget that.

Therefore I play by the rules, what little there are here - and I'm thankful for that - , in order to ensure that I can hopefully contribute, help and benefit from the experience of hundreds, if not thousands, that are far wiser at this craft than I am.

Failure to see that and just be a "nice person" sometimes is lost on folks and that's usually when trouble begins.

Moderating a forum is not an easy task; trust me as I do it myself. I personally think the mods here have been far more even handed than any other site I've been on in the past 5 years.

Dave

[FrankS]

There are undoubtedly some members who consider these posts of support for standards of behaviour and for the moderators, as mere back slapping and sucking up by an "in group". They may even claim to be in the silent majority which think likewise (with no proof of that). Bottom line: it's Jorge's site.

[Honu-Hugger]

Originally Posted by dcsang

Ya know.. I've said it before and I'll say it again; if this was my site, I could do whatever pleases me. I could cuss till the cows come home; I could belittle others, I could swagger with bravado and think myself cock of the walk; but guess what; it's NOT my site. I really think people forget that.

Therefore I play by the rules, what little there are here - and I'm thankful for that - , in order to ensure that I can hopefully contribute, help and benefit from the experience of hundreds, if not thousands, that are far wiser at this craft than I am.

Failure to see that and just be a "nice person" sometimes is lost on folks and that's usually when trouble begins.

Moderating a forum is not an easy task; trust me as I do it myself. I personally think the mods here have been far more even handed than any other site I've been on in the past 5 years.

Dave

Very nicely summarized Dave, I couldn't agree more.

Aloha,

[Flyfisher Tom]

Rick,

You raise some interesting points.

But I will respectfully disagree. The bottom line is RFF's moderators do their jobs well. For a comparison, see the guerrilla warfare at Pnet's Leica forum, and you will quickly appreciate the difference.

It is not too much to ask that ideas - however profound or irrelevant - be expressed artfully, with tact and wit. Opinions that can't be expressed with civility are both literally and figuratively useless, as the intended audience has usually tuned out.

Rather than blame the moderators for exercising a firm hand, why not encourage those who seem to be communication and civility autistics to improve their communication skills. Indeed, their people skills in general ;-) cheers

[dazedgonebye]

I've not been around enough to have seen that much going on...and I'm not one for the more controversial topics (never actually seen a Leica in person), but from what I've seen so far, this is a well moderated forum with a largely civil population.
So all I can really add is a vote of confidence for all involved

[rover]

Rick as I am at work I cannot offer a detailed response to your letter.

It is perhaps not necessary as I agree with most of what you say. I accept your criticism as being constructive and will be mindful of your thoughts. I also read in agreement the statements of the other members who have posted here.

Most telling in your letter is that you do have the best interest of RFF on your mind, that is something that is widely shared. It is our strongest point of agreement, thank you for that.

[Sparrow]

Well said Rick can I add some observations of my own about recent events?

With all due respect to the moderators; can I just say that without being able to see the nature of the posts we are unable to learn any lessons from them, I still have no clear idea of why over the last few weekends first Desmo and then FrankG have vanished.

Natural justice requires that anyone in a position of power exercises that power in a fair way and it would be reasonable to expect provocation and harassment to be treated as seriously as the retaliation to them.

The fact that something is the custom and practise in one place doesn’t make it a law of nature so some consideration to and allowance for the other persons perspective seems appropriate.

That said I understand this is a private forum and that access to it is rightly in the gift of its owner I would take this opportunity to thank him for both.

Sorry if this is impertinent for a new member, or for any offence caused, regards Stewart

[George S.]

Dave summed it up nicely.

This is someone else's place, not mine. Frank definitely had a problem with the fact that there are rules attached to this place.
People get all confused, thinking this is 'the internet', and nobody owns it, so they think it can be OK to engage in a free-for-all, and hide behind the computer. I'm certain some of the noisier folk would behave differently if we were all sitting together in someone's living room, talking about RFs face to face.

I've been a member here a couple of years. I can't recall such personal attacks and short temperedness with regard to others, but I think Frank may have had more to do with it than some realize. Things have gone downhill here for about the past 6 months, which, I think, is exactly when Frank G joined. Coincidence? Maybe, Maybe not.

[Socke]

Blaming all on Frank G. is a bit too easy. After all, a lot of Leica owners joined in the last year, too. When I found this site we had much more FSU than Leica content.

And the problems at pnet are mostly politics and, to some extent, "Leica über alles" fans. I wouldn't dare asking a ZI question there and I will never answer anything with the word Cuba in it, it's a waste of time since it gets deleted anyways due to a very loud minority.

I can get into heated diskussions when I misunderstand something and my answers, which I thought are humorous, are taken too seriously, that's a problem with text based discussions even smileys can't solve.

And as a last note, I haven't read 90% of Frank Gs posts, so I can't judge it anyways.

[laptoprob]

Who stated something like: "freedom is defined by its boundaries"? Some old greek?
Rules do make sense. Coming from me as an anarchist who argues just about any rule there is may come as a surprise but yes, rules do make sense.
Discussing the sense of rules also makes sense. Most traffic signs have to be put up to cover up silly rules. Rules are debatable but do make sense.

To put it in another way: A solid wall is only solid if you can see it is solid. If there is a hole to show it is solid.
Anything shows its properties best when juxtaposed with an opposite.

Rules do make sense.

[back alley]

creativity through chaos!
that was once my management motto...

things change
people change
change is the only constant

we have changed too, grown, matured, whatever...

i have no problem with what people say here - i have a problem with how it is said.

roger hicks was a fine addition to our membership but he wanted people to learn through the process of confrontation...it was not acceptable.
why not? the membership did not like it and i did not like it.
i have said this before, i see rff as a sanctuary for those who enjoy rangefinder photography and those that want to take away need to go elsewhere.

i have read in other posts lately references to flirting and i can only assume that it's directed at me as i have been a flirt of late. all in fun, mind you.
is it directly connected to rf photography? obviously not. but it does foster a bit of camraderie, i believe.
posts made about slr cameras or classifieds selling non rf gear do not add to the rf experience but they are allowed as the membership does not live in a vacuum and there are few, like me, that shoot only rf.
pics posted that are not rf related have been allowed to co-exist n the gallery with rf pics.
that is not pure rf but it's allowed, in moderation.

swearing at others is not allowed. jorge has made that clear, to you and to the mods also.
banning is a last ditch effort.

none of you were privy to the process that lead to frank g coming back.
i received a host of profane laden emails at home from frank, he was very upset and accused me of being part of a grand conspiracy against him and his non american-ness.
i patiently answered all his questions in the most respectful manner i could muster. and negotiated with him for his return. i believe in second chances (having been granted a few in my time) and i was rewarded by him attacking others in his first post.

jorge banned him, his call and certainly his right.

we do this for enjoyment and if you like the idea of sitting and reading almost every post with an eye for potential problems then i suggest you volunteer for a mod job here.

then i am accused by mrs. frank of of trying to cheat her husband by offering him a worthless watch in trade for his cl and hearing of his generosity and how he contributed $40. towards the purchase of the zi outfit for me.
perhaps i am supposed to feel guilty or embarrased by this.

where is all this leading...?
we need to be open to each other, treat each other with respect, even while disagreeing with each other.
communicate honestly and maintain a sense of humour.

and if you have never been wrong, never have made a mistake or been part of a misunderstanding, then you can cast the first stone.

till then i suggest we all lighten light.

joe

[SolaresLarrave]

I've been a member here from shortly after the day it started. Visiting this forum daily (even when I was in Costa Rica, in my biannual month-long stay), I've hardly seen instances in which a member used strong language towards another. I can't recall nasty replies with the intent of belittling or ridiculizing people... but then, others, like Rick and Peter (from Singapore) experienced e-mail threats and harassment.

Alas, but it's a normal thing. We simply have managed to keep these incidents at a minimum. Wasn't there a long thread about politics that was maintained with an extremely high standard that should be the model of public discourse? I was very proud to read the things that happened and find myself belonging to this group.

However, the events that happened recently just rocked the boat. Let's not lose our perspective and remember: this place is not a democracy, but Jorge's good will to create a forum where we all can congregate. Joe is very tolerant, and keeps an eye on it (proof of his patience is that we can rib him ad infinitum about anything, from redheads to using TLRs or lens assembly). Regarding those who have left, I remember that Roger's departure was voluntary: he wasn't banned. FrankG, however, chose to provoke, and whether the guy is nice or not, that's been always the point of no return in this forum.

In sum, my contribution is that we should not exxagerate what happens here. It's really nothing compared to other forums in the web.

[Sparrow]

Having spent last year looking and reading in detail this and other sites while looking for pointers on how to replace a stolen and much loved camera kit, this site has by far the most integrity and greatest knowledge in depth I found, it would be a shame to see that lost to the intolerance and sledging or am I naive in thinking we are all here to make more beautiful images and can cope with some “personalities” in that endeavour
Stewart
PS don’t worry Volker I get as lost and misunderstood and it’s my only language!

[FrankS]

Sparrow, there are personalities, and then there are PERSONALITIES. RFF has been a very tolerant place, within the boundaries set by Jorge, which I agree with totally, because I don't want RFF to become a place where people are tolerant of profane personal attacks.

[Andy K]

I have not seen any profane attacks on anyone. I have seen, as Rick Waldroup has pointed out, threads closed purely because a moderator decided the thread had gone far enough, or on one occasion was 'going round in circles now'. So what if it was going round in circles? So what if it has become tiresome to a moderator? If members want to continue yapping that is doing no harm to anyone.

RFF will become sterile and dead if this censorship continues.

Moderators are fine, it is when they decide to censor or allow their own opinions to colour their moderating behaviour and decisions, that problems arise.

People have said this site is well moderated. IMO it has some of the heaviest handed moderation I have ever come across on the internet.

[aad]

There are plenty of unmoderated places to rant, if one wishes. I'm very happy living by the rules of the homeowner when I visit.

My husband was banned for writing "shoving it up your **s.

The member this was directed to got away with making far worse insults since my husband joined. I had read some of them.

Back Alley (the moderator) had also insulted him and there was a nasty e-mail exchange. All my husband wanted was for the insults directed at him (and others) to stop.

Instead the moderator took the easy way out.

MSader,

Terms like "shoving it up your **s." are unwelcome here. And I am sure there were other things too.

When I first posted here I was often confrontational. I leaned to be otherwise - including publicly apologizing to another member to which I said far less.

I think you are welcome here - if it is to speak your mind and interest in RF photography. I don't think that you are welcome here if it is to be a "surrogate" for somone who has made crude ad hominem attacks.

[Kim Coxon]

Andy,
Most of the posts on this thread would seem to disagree with you.

A few days ago, you started a thread which purported to be pro film but many of you arguments were anti digital. The moderators said and did nothing. When there were some strong replies to your posts, you reported the thread to the moderators and asked that the "offenders" be dealt with. I replied to you and refused. The replies were in Joerge's guidlines. You replied talking about the "favoured few" who you claimed were allowed to say anything and demanded that action be taken against them. When the arguments started to get personal, both Joe and Ralph posted a request that the arguments should be confined to the subject. When this did not happen, the thread was locked.

In response, you started a new thread attacking several members. At the same time you continued to "demand" action from the moderators until I pointed out to you that you had totally ignored an apology from 2 of the people you mentioned. Few people were interested and the thread turned to wine. Later, you made another provocative post which was also ignored by the mods and by most others and the thread died.

In your 3 recent posts on the subject you have ranted that about the mods. In the first you claim that some and I quote spend most of their time 'sucking up' to moderator(s) and who will gang up on and attempt to drive from RFF, anyone with an opinion different from theirs. I may be mistaken but this seems very much like your actions of a few days ago. In response to that, I send you a PM which you posted. It could easily have been deleted but wasn't.

And now this post. A few days ago you were complaining bitterly that the mods were not taking enough action in censoring posts and not "talking" to members. You are now accusing us of being heavy handed and censoring to suit our own opinions. The only conclusion I can draw is that it is your intent to try to stir up trouble for anyone whose views do not exactly match your.

Kim

Originally Posted by Andy K

I have not seen any profane attacks on anyone. I have seen, as Rick Waldroup has pointed out, threads closed purely because a moderator decided the thread had gone far enough, or on one occasion was 'going round in circles now'. So what if it was going round in circles? So what if it has become tiresome to a moderator? If members want to continue yapping that is doing no harm to anyone.

RFF will become sterile and dead if this censorship continues.

Moderators are fine, it is when they decide to censor or allow their own opinions to colour their moderating behaviour and decisions, that problems arise.

People have said this site is well moderated. IMO it has some of the heaviest handed moderation I have ever come across on the internet.

[a.black]

Originally Posted by MSader

My husband was banned for writing "shoving it up your **s.

The member this was directed to got away with making far worse insults since my husband joined. I had read some of them.

Back Alley (the moderator) had also insulted him and there was a nasty e-mail exchange. All my husband wanted was for the insults directed at him (and others) to stop.

Instead the moderator took the easy way out.

What was really said in soem e-mails, only the involved know. Most of us just heard rumors, or read a quick overview posted by Joe.
But what Joe has said several times is that he tried hard to get FrankG back to this forum, only to see that in one of his first posts he made the "shove" remark.
The ban did not come from Joe or any other mod, but was done by Jorge, who is the administrator and owner of this forum. His rules, his decision.