Advice for a rangefinder newbie

FreddyF · 02-02-2006

First off, Hi all!

I appologise if I'm going over old ground with my request.

I've long toyed with the idea of dumping my SLRs and getting into rangerfinder photography and now I've decided to jump in head first but I need some help.

I've got my heart set on a used M3 and 35mm f2 Summicron to start. My question to you all is before I splash out, what should I consider on top of this? Is there anything that I should know about owning this combination or indeed any Leica in general? Are there any pitfalls in buying used and what should I be looking out for?

Thank you all for any advice or links you can offer.

Regards,
Andy

rover · 02-02-2006

Andy, the M3 is perhaps the most legendary camera ever made, but it is not a natural mate for a 35mm lens. If 35mm is your focal length of choice, then you would be better served finding a nice M2. If it is the M3 that has captivated you, then a 50/2 Summicron is the match for your camera.

FrankS · 02-02-2006

Hi Andy, and Welcome.

There is a problem with the kit you have indicated: The M3 does not have framelines in the viewfinder for a 35mm lens. If you are set on using a 35, the M2, M4, M4-2, M4-P, or M6 (with built-in meter) would be better choices.

Flyfisher Tom · 02-02-2006

To echo what the others have pointed to, the M3 is a great camera, one of Leica's best. However, you will have a difficult time with it if you intend to use a 35mm lens with it. It is optimized for 50mm and above. You can use the outer edge of the entire viewfinder as a proxy for the 35mm frameline. Or, get a second hand external viewfinder from Canon or Voigtlander.

Lastly, you need a meter, either a Voigtlander that sits in the hotshoe and is very compact, or a handheld, such as a Sekonic or Gossen. good luck and welcome!

rover · 02-02-2006

OK, I think we all nailed that one down.

FrankS · 02-02-2006

Everyone gets an A.

markinlondon · 02-02-2006

So a 35 isn't a good match with an M3, then? Is that what you're saying?

Seriously, welcome, Andy, there is lots of good advice in the archives.

Mark

merciful · 02-02-2006

Or M5.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankS

Hi Andy, and Welcome.

If you are set on using a 35, the M2, M4, M4-2, M4-P, or M6 (with built-in meter) would be better choices.

FreddyF · 02-02-2006

Hmm... Thanks guys - that's something I'd never have considered before now.

What are the downsides of using an external viewfinder?

And (sorry for all these questions) is there any disadvanteges of choosing an M4 over an M3? They appear to be pretty similar in price on the used market.

Again, thanks so much all of you.

merciful · 02-02-2006

If a 35mm is your lens of choice, it's silly to consider an M3: the external finder is an extra thing to look through to frame an exposure. There's no reason not to consider an M4 instead: they're just as well-made, and marginally more convenient, with the rewind crank rather than knob; they are somewhat more expensive, though. If the M3 has really got you all fired up, though, the M2 is as close as you'll get, and you can use the 35mm easily.

The only reason I have an M2 as a backup instead of another M3 is my desire to have a body with 35mm framelines.

rover · 02-02-2006

An M4 is actually more expensive generally than an M3. The M2 was made concurrently with the M3, it added 35mm framelines but deleted 135mm lines, and can now be had at a similar price. The M4 had all 4 focal lengths (90mm being the other). The magnification of the M3 viewfinder is .91 while the others have .72. The M2 has a manually reset frame counter, the others have automatically set counts. The M3 and M2 have removable film spools which require removal for loading, the M4 and later cameras have a rapid loading spool which does not need to be removed. The M3 and M2 can be upgraded with a rapid loading system. Here are a couple places to look for info.

http://www.cameraquest.com/classics.htm
http://www.nemeng.com/leica/
http://www.kbcamera.com/mreviews.htm

FreddyF · 02-02-2006

Again thanks guys - it's pretty obvious I need to do some more homework before I start spending. I'd really like to get into wide angle lenses (I have this deluded desire to be the next Garry Winogrand), it looks like an M2 or M4 might be my only option.

And thanks for those links rover - I'll make sure to read up before I ask any more questions.

BTW - I have a still working(!) Weston Master V light meter for really keeping it old school.

rover · 02-02-2006

One other thought, if you are looking to go wider than 28mm, then you will need an external finder anyways. So, an M3 may still be a good choice. I actually carry my M3 with a 28 and external finder. If you want to use a 35mm lens, then you really have to consider another camera. Also, don't discount the M4-2 or M4-p, both are good cameras. Don't believe all the stuff you read on the internet, a Leica is a Leica, they are all excellent cameras.

merciful · 02-02-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreddyF

it looks like an M2 or M4 might be my only option.

BTW - I have a still working(!) Weston Master V light meter for really keeping it old school.

Or an M5, or M6; or M7/MP with a .58 or .72 finder...

Old-school as I like things to be, there's nothing like a good Sekonic digital meter when things get really dim. And dim is where it's really at, baby.

35mmdelux · 02-02-2006

Welcome to the world of RF. The most legendary of them all.

For a first timer you may be surprised at the cost of a decent M3. There are many options from which to choose. Someday I'd like to pick one up myself.

External VF? Forget them at all costs. Too slow for fast moving framing. So that means that your cam ought to have the needed framelines.

Your choice of a 35Cron is a good one IMO. But of course that depends on your style. My style is for the 35mm Summilux and its my main lens. 1 camera, 1 lens. I wish. I also have the 28mm Elmarit and a recently acquired 50mm M-Hexanon for unique portrait or landscape momento. I use them all.

The camera, the camera! well, as you know they vary in price substantially. First off, stick w/ the .72 mag M4-P or later, which can accomodate all framelines, except the ultra-wides. For me, personally a shooter and not a collector, I hold the M4-P and the M6 Classic (has meter) as 2 of Leicas best. Its kinda of an opinionated comment b/c they are all so good. But there it is. The M4-P was the culmination of 30 years M development, and the M6 Classic simply added the meter. You can pick up these cams between (roughly) $650-$1000, respectively. At least that is what I paid. $650 for a nice Cron, unless you get lucky.

Good luck.

gns · 02-02-2006

Goggles would be another choice for 35mm on M3, no?
Not that I wouldn't still choose the M2 or M4.

Gary

Biggles · 02-02-2006

One thing to consider, if you've never used a coupled rangefinder much: What the lens sees won't always be as close to what goes onto the film as what you're used to seeing through an SLR's finder. Even parallax-corrected framelines will still be a bit off at varying distances from a stable subject.

If the type of pictures you take can tolerate that idiosyncracy, it's a non-issue. Your reference to Winogrand hints that staid, architectural documentary shots off a tripod may not be your first priority, so you should get along just fine with a Leica M-series body.

With that said...

"Are there any pitfalls in buying used and what should I be looking out for?"

Have any secondhand coupled rangefinder you buy checked by a pro if you even SUSPECT the parallax correction might be off. It's not simply annoying to have a camera that shoots a foot to the left at twelve feet, it's downright enraging. Ask me how I know this. No, don't.

If you buy a particularly old camera (say, older than 15 or 20 years), have the price of a proper overhaul budgeted. You're buying it to use, right? So, set yourself up so you can use it blithely, and be able to blame any exposure and framing oddities on yourself, rather than on the gear.

merciful · 02-02-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggles

Ask me how I know this. No, don't.

Oh, c'mon, spill it.

RML · 02-02-2006

You say you're thinking of dumping your SLR gear. I wouldn't do so before you've spent some time with the M2 (or any rf camera). Besides, many of us here (including I) also have an (d)SLR with paraphernalia at hand just to cover all those instances where an rf camera doesn't shine (macro, tele, sports, etc.)

FreddyF · 02-02-2006

I can't thank you all enough. This thread has been a great help and reinforces the need to do some homework before I jump in and buy.

Biggles · 02-03-2006

Another general practice I've found of immeasurable help: If you haven't already, visit some secondhand camera stores and handle some Leicas. Make a day of it. Ask to be shown every M-variant you see in a showcase. Peer through their viewfinders, operate their shutters, play with their opening latches and rewind knobs. Take the lens and replace it. Get an idea of how they feel in your hands, and what all this business of cranks and framelines is all about. Take notes, if you're not afraid of being labelled an anorak. (M2: Nice finder. M3: Nicer finder. M6 TTL: Rewind knob hurts my teeth.)

Makes buying one through the mail a lot easier, if it comes to that. And it may come to that- in general, the best prices for reliable secondhand camera bodies are found on fora like this one.

jamiewakeham · 02-03-2006

Maybe it would even be worth getting a cheap RF camera to play with, just to make sure that the RF way of shooting is really your thing, before lashing out the big money. A Canonet or similar? Anyway, a backup is always useful

Jamie

MCTuomey · 02-03-2006

Freddy, I second Remy's thought. And Jamie's.

I prefer RFs, having returned to them recently. I started my re-acquaintance after some 20 years with a fixed-lens RF for about $40. Eventually moved to a Leica. Still have the SLRs though they get little use outside of soccer and sports.

You will appreciate a Leica and be able to assess one a bit better having shot awhile with one of the little RFs, too.

Think transitionally, is my observation.

Welcome to the board!

FreddyF · 02-03-2006

I won't be trading in my old SLRs, my Canon A-1 (I have a beat up Yashica too)I've had since school and means to much to me. I became interested in photography again when digital began to take off a couple of years ago but the whole digital scene is beginning to leave me a little cold. I thought the style of rangefinder photography might re-ignite the passion.

I think there's a Leica store somewhere near the British Museum here in London so I'll take a trip down there this week.

Treb · 02-03-2006

There was (still is?) al Leica shop at the Pied Bull Yard. There also was another shop selling Leica's and other brands.