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Pre-war collaps. FED (Industar 10) lens odd
Old 01-18-2006   #1
brians
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Pre-war collaps. FED (Industar 10) lens odd

My FED (Industar 10) collapsibles is weird. It's a prewar model, and probably came equipped on the early FEDs or an older FED-2. My newer FED (coated) lens mounts correctly, with the focusing tab to the left hand side of the camera at infinity. For some reason, my older one mounts at 12 o'clock (@ inf.) It's kind of annoying especially for focusing. It does this for my Zorki 6, FED 2 and Zorki 4.

Got any ideas on how to repair, or how to alleviate this problem?
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Old 01-18-2006   #2
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I have a FED coated ('55 I think) with infinity at about 3o'clock, and Elmas 50 and 35 from '35 with infinity at about 1o'clock.
There are multiple entry points on the helix, you could try to mount the lens one entry ahead.

Rob
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Old 01-18-2006   #3
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Thanks for the quick reply, Rob. Unfortunately, my mounting is not on the helix, but the collar of the lens (the back of the distance ring). I see what you're talking about, but whichever way I try to mount it, it ends up the same.
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Old 01-18-2006   #4
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I know Brian. If you unscrew the stop at close focus, you can fully unscrew the lens barrel. Be careful, you will have to enter the helix again one thread earlier. Back if you like. Then the lens will have infinity at something like 2 or 3 o'clock.

good luck.

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Old 01-18-2006   #5
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This lens may have been taken apart and reassembled incorrectly. Does the lens function properly focus-wise at the present?
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Old 01-18-2006   #6
Kim Coxon
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I go with the G'Man on this. The problem is with the main body, not the focus helix. If you unmount the lens unit the body would still sit in the same place.

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Old 01-18-2006   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laptoprob
I know Brian. If you unscrew the stop at close focus, you can fully unscrew the lens barrel.
No he doesn't. Stay away from your lens thread. It is indeed multi-start but it only goes in one way. Your problem is surely in the plate on the camera body. Take it off and see if will go on rotated 90 degrees c/clockwise. I say "see if" because I believe my late FED-1 has a locating pin and I can only assume earlier ones did not. I guess the threads were cut in along tube. There were clear discrepancies between the lens threads and the locating bolts in this plate, but I'm sure yours would be fixable.
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Old 01-18-2006   #8
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Aw, that's kind of weird... it holds my postwar coated FED (Indy 10s) properly. In the case that I rotated the screwmount plate of the body 90 deg CW or CCW, wouldn't that make other lens fitted on the camera 90 degrees to the side?

I have mounted the lens in question on my FED 2.

Thanks in advance for your help and insight.
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Old 01-18-2006   #9
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I can agree with the remarks made above about the camera flange, but the point is there is one lens mounting incorrectly, others are mounting fine (if I understood corrrectly). Solution to this is in the lens mount.
What I did not realize is that when the lens barrel is rotated relatively to the lens/camera mount the distance markings and stops are in the wrong place. So, your lens mount is a monday morning one. With the camera threads rotated in respect to the distance markings.

Solution maybe: switch the lens/camera mount. I can send you one from a FED lens that I got in a ruined state.

just let me know...

Rob
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Old 01-18-2006   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brians
Aw, that's kind of weird... it holds my postwar coated FED (Indy 10s) properly. In the case that I rotated the screwmount plate of the body 90 deg CW or CCW, wouldn't that make other lens fitted on the camera 90 degrees to the side?

I have mounted the lens in question on my FED 2.

Thanks in advance for your help and insight.
OK I got that wrong. I now see that the early lens is shown on a Zorki-6 and a FED-2 and it is consistently wrong. Further, you imply you don't have the original camera, a pre-war FED. (All FED-2s are post-war). I assume you are correct in the that this really is a pre-war lens and thus this is probably an example of how slack they were . The mounting thread is truly in the wrong position and this was liklely fixed on the original body by rotating the mounting plate.

I think the solutions are:

1. Learn to live with it, or
2. find the original camera, or
3. take up laptop's offer of a modern mount from a dead lens

Re-starting the lens body in a different thread is not a solution.

Last edited by Nickfed : 01-18-2006 at 23:23.
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Old 01-19-2006   #11
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Thanks for the input

This has helped a great deal and I hope to use them to the fullest extent.

Rob, I would love to take the lens off of you if you wouldn't mind. How much would you want them for? I'm in postal code 92604 in California, USA. I appreciate the offer.

Regards
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Old 01-19-2006   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brians
My FED (Industar 10) collapsibles is weird. It's a prewar model, and probably came equipped on the early FEDs or an older FED-2. My newer FED (coated) lens mounts correctly, with the focusing tab to the left hand side of the camera at infinity. For some reason, my older one mounts at 12 o'clock (@ inf.) It's kind of annoying especially for focusing. It does this for my Zorki 6, FED 2 and Zorki 4.

Got any ideas on how to repair, or how to alleviate this problem?

Have you shot any images with this lens on a later (post war) FSU body?

The reason I ask is I was under the impression these old lenses (with an f18 stop) were matched to a body at the factory and used a non standard film-lens distance.

I just did a quick google.....

From Stephen Rothery web site talking about an early FED1 made into a fake Leica.
"The FED 1 Industar-10 lenses are not exactly the same as an Elmar, as the film to lens distance is slightly different, being about 28.5mm."

From Fedka's web site in the RF Focus & Rangefinder Adjustment section.
"Very early prewar FED (such as those with „NKVD“-markings) did not have standard lens focus registers. The values varied greatly from camera to camera, and each camera had its lens calibrated specifically for it."

I'm sure I read some stuff on this subject over on the bestsuff Russian forums a couple of years back, I think the bottom line was you would have to set the body up just for that lens, it (lens-film distance) would be off for other LTM lenses.

Anyone care to add some knowledge on the non standard film-lens distance issue??
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Old 01-19-2006   #13
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For the record, I will ship Brian my lens mount. It is in fact from an uncoated, probably pre-war FED lens. It is similar in position to my Elmars and my coated post-war FED.

Good luck Brian!
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Old 01-27-2006   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brians
My FED (Industar 10) collapsibles is weird. It's a prewar model, and probably came equipped on the early FEDs or an older FED-2. My newer FED (coated) lens mounts correctly, with the focusing tab to the left hand side of the camera at infinity. For some reason, my older one mounts at 12 o'clock (@ inf.) It's kind of annoying especially for focusing. It does this for my Zorki 6, FED 2 and Zorki 4.

Got any ideas on how to repair, or how to alleviate this problem?

Brian

The prewar FED cameras and lenses were matched at the factory. Not only in terms of lens flange to film distances, but parking orientation (the issue you found). Standardisation was almost nil. Two prewar FED cameras will not have the same lens thread start points- interchanging the lenses from either camera to the other would likely result to something similar to your observation.

The prewar FED mount thread was also slightly different. It was not according to Leica standard. The early FED used M39x1(metric) thread pitch. Leica was always
M39x1 (english). Only after the war did they switch to the Leitz specs. This would mean that the early FED lenses would also have a different thread pitch.

This may or may not allow the lens to fit on the camera. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Real Leitz threaded lenses or Soviet lenses from the postwar era won't fit a prewar FED either.

Assuming that you can fit the lens right and have its tab stop where it should,
another issue which you should be aware of is the focus movement of the lens helicals. I've found older FED lenses which used a different pitch. This sort of lenses would not accurately coincide with a rangefinder calibrated for post-war lenses.

It might be best to use a prewar FED lens on a prewar camera and never on anything postwar.

Jay
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Last edited by ZorkiKat : 01-27-2006 at 07:37.
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Old 01-27-2006   #15
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Here's my experience on my two pre-WWII Feds

1. Fed 1d "Kombinat" 1d with a 50/3.5, lens registration = 28.5mm as Jay confirmed and the thread pitch is different. None of my later Jupiter or Industar lenses would fit into this body, likewise the lens does not mount on any other post WWII FSU body.

2. A relatively rare Fed-S [1/1000 top speed] with a Summar clone 50/2 which has the standard 28.8mm lens registration. Postwar FSU as well as some Leitz lenses mount on the camera. The only problem is that the orientation of the tab ends up at a very odd place i.e. the focusing tab locked at infinity on a post war I-22 ends up at 4 oclock, while the Summar clone mounted on a postwar FSU body or a Leica II locks at 1 o'clock.

Both units were manufactured between 1938-41 according to Princelle.

If you'd like to see pictures of these cameras here's the link: http://members.myactv.net/~je245/leica2nc.htm



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Old 01-27-2006   #16
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I also have an early FED 50/3.5 collapsible that mounts at 12:00 at infinity via a modern cameraquest adaptor on my Hexar RF. It is annoying, but I focus with the knurled front flange of the lens instead of the tab. It appears uncoated and the last aperture on the scale is f18. Is there a list where I can look up the serial number (#130152, with the number 64 also stamped on the opposing side of the flange) and find out more info about the lens (date, body it came with...)?
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Old 10-20-2009   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brians View Post
Thanks for the quick reply, Rob. Unfortunately, my mounting is not on the helix, but the collar of the lens (the back of the distance ring). I see what you're talking about, but whichever way I try to mount it, it ends up the same.
pre and post war Fed lenses are not compatible. The pre war lenses were copied from the Leica system while post war lenses were remodelled to the CZ 28.8mm Focal length to film plane standard. No Fed 2's were pre war, only Fed 1 models with serial numbers below 178000 or thereabouts. I've tried experimenting with pre war lenses on post war bodies etc and they dont match. If you have one that does it has probably been modified post war to fit a later camera. My Fed 28mm is an example of this, it doesnt focus on my pre war Fed (which it was made for), only on the post war models.
most pre war lenses have the old aperture standard,4,5- 6,3- 9 -12,5 - 18 etc...
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Old 10-20-2009   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laika View Post
Have you shot any images with this lens on a later (post war) FSU body?

The reason I ask is I was under the impression these old lenses (with an f18 stop) were matched to a body at the factory and used a non standard film-lens distance.


From Fedka's web site in the RF Focus & Rangefinder Adjustment section.
"Very early prewar FED (such as those with „NKVD“-markings) did not have standard lens focus registers. The values varied greatly from camera to camera, and each camera had its lens calibrated specifically for it."

Anyone care to add some knowledge on the non standard film-lens distance issue??
A range of lenses 28mm/f4,5 and 100mm/f6,3 as well as the optional 50/f2 seems to blow this theory away. I found a 100mm and 28mm lens for my 1938 Fed C and the 100, the 50/3,5 and the 50/f2 lenses all focus very sharp without adjustment. The 28mm 4,5 lens doesnt focus at all at infinity and I believe it';s been adapted for post war bodies which have a longer film to focal point distance. I plan to check this out this week on my post war Zorki 3M.
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Old 10-29-2009   #19
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I have to ask; how can you identify a pre-war lens?

My experience is that they stayed the same until the revised/international f stops were used.

Several of mine have 4 digit numbers and I'd expect them to match the last 4 of the camera's number but they don't...

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Old 11-01-2009   #20
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I had a Leica II for repair and it came with a prewar Fed lens.
In fact this was kind of a Frankencamera as no one of the screws were original nor the threads survived the human invasion of some time ago. The camera was a 1937 model, so the lens mount was marked with the 0 as being normalizaed. The lens stopped allways with the infinity lock at 12. I tested the lens in other LTM bodies where I found it focused correctly but the inf. stop was allways blocking VF or RF windows.
I had no other choice than to rotate 90 deg. the lens mount to leave the lens resting in a usable position.
The owner will tell me next tuesday which were the results.

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Old 11-04-2009   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZorkiKat View Post
Brian

The prewar FED cameras and lenses were matched at the factory. Not only in terms of lens flange to film distances, but parking orientation (the issue you found). Standardisation was almost nil. Two prewar FED cameras will not have the same lens thread start points- interchanging the lenses from either camera to the other would likely result to something similar to your observation.
Jay
Indeed one characteristic for classifying early FEDs was "focusing tab at 11 o'clock", 9 o'clock etc
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Old 05-16-2013   #22
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Sorry guys for digging out this. I have the same issue with my Fed-1 and its Industar-10 lens. I had taken it off to clean the lens and lubricate it. I felt it a bit loose, not firmly attached, while trying to take it of (the lens) and I had realized that the screw next to the focusing tab was jamming in the holes over the screws of the mount on the camera body. I removed completely that screw to take the lens off.
After cleaning it up, putting the lens back to the body, after screwing the lens all the way inwards, the focusing tab had parked just in front of the viewfinder!
I had searched quite a bit, and in a forum in Russian I was told that the mount on the body has a mark engraved on it at 9 o'clock. I have to tighten the screw next to the focusing tab as much so that the lens get screwed on the body with that screw as close to that mark on the mount as possible.
Is that correct?
I wish I could take off the back of it to verify correct focus.
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Old 05-18-2013   #23
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Nikos72,
I'm a bit confused by your description of the problem. Do you have a photo showing your situation?

From what I can gather, it sounds like one of the lens mount screws is a tad proud and catching the lens as it is fully mounted/seated. If so, the offending screw is where the focus should be (no pun intended). The countersink might have some gunk in it that prevents the mounting screw to fully seat into it, causing the head to protrude slightly above the mounting ring plane (flange).

Or, your problem is something completely different.
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Old 05-20-2013   #24
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rfaspen,
My problem is, or should I say was, that the focusing tab before the lens removal and cleanup was parked at 9 o'clock. After cleanup, while screwing it in all the way the tab was parked at 1 o'clock obstructing the composition viewfinder of my Fed.
After looking into it, I have been advised to adjust the screw that lies a bit further away from the focusing tab so that the lens when screwed in, the tab is parked again at 9 o'clock.
I will add tomorrow a couple of photos explaining this.
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Old 05-21-2013   #25
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Did you remove the lens mount ring / flange from the body? If so, that would be the most likely reason for the problem. The lens mount may have been reinstalled with a different orientation. Easy enough to do because the 4 screw holes around the mount are equidistant and you can remount the ring in any rotated position.

But, there is a relieved area on the underside of the mount ring that goes to the top (allowance for the rangefinder arm) that would make it somewhat obvious if the ring were repositioned CW or CCW. The little black line on the side of the mount flange ring should be at 9 o clock when you are viewing the camera from the front.

If the lens mount wasn't removed and reinstalled, you're implying that the disassembly of the lens has caused the new park position. I'd need to see/read more description of this problem. I have an I-10 and Fed 1 (and others) here to check.

Have you tried mounting any other lenses on this body? Any non-FSU lenses?
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