Possibly stupid film storage question ...

[dmr]

Ok, since I now have Walgreens/Agfa 200 coming out of my ears (48 - count 'em - 48) I realize that's more than I will shoot in over a year, so I'm gonna put at least some of this in the fridge.

I see references here every so often to putting film in the freezer. Is this a wise or good thing to do? If I'm not going to be using film for say 9 months or so, is it better to freeze it, or just put it in the regular refrigerator?

Thanks.

[jan normandale]

I've seen a lot of different responses to this one. Manolo is one of the 'freezer' brigade. IE he will put film in a freezer, perhaps not always but he has. I'm of the fridge only brigade.

Most photogs say they don't see any difference between frozen and refrigerated. I probably couldn't tell either. However I believe that 10 or 15 degrees can make little difference to the issue of film storage. So film stored at 25 F (ie 7 degrees below freezing) or stored at 40 F probably isn't making a lot of difference to longevity.

My concern is not verified however I know that freezing structurally alters chemical composition in some instances. Additionally humidity in the cannister can form water - crystalline structures with the ability to physically impact the emulsion.

So I forgo the extra 15 degrees of cold and stay above freezing. I'll be interested to see how others respond.

[Andrew Touchon]

I have been storing my film in the freezer for the past 3-4 years. I have never noticed any problems. I just take it out and let it sit at room temperature for a few hours before I open it.

[sf]

I've never heard of film being frozen. I might be skeptical for that reason alone. Freezing and refrigeration are two different things. Who knows about the properties of the materials at freezing point and below, but other issues like crystalization of moisture would also be scary for me.

[sf]

oh, and there are no stupid photography questions on RFF.

[kaiyen]

1 thing - you aren't freezing film. You are putting it in the freezer. Film is not actually "frozen" when it's in your freezer, just really, really cold.

I freeze the film I won't be touching for a while, and keep my mini-fridge stocked with stuff I might need on any given day. I double zip-lock everything.

allan

[ChrisPlatt]

I vote for refrigeration, not freezing.

Excelsior, you fathead!
-Chris-

[sf]

yes, you are not technically freezing the film (since its freezing point is obviously more complicated than water, given its composition of many materials) A higher freezing point, I suppose.

But, I would certainly not put anything except sealed rollfilm or 35mm that is truly sealed from any air in or out, in the freezer because moisture WILL crystallize in the film, or when you take it out, condensation will occur - hardcore. By "sealed" I mean, film that is in its original sealed wrapping. Merely putting it in a baggie does not promise the total dryness of the air since whatever air you trap in the bag will likely contain moisture particles.

My oh my. You can tell how obsessive I am about my equipment and my film. This is really going too far. Go ahead and freeze it in baggies. Just imagine me trying NOT to look like a terrorist going through customs with all those X-ray machines trying to molest my film. "It'll be OK" they say, as they push it into the machine. This obsessive nature comes through as sweaty palms, uneven communication, visible nervousness, and a number of other physical manifestations.

[dmr]

Originally Posted by shutterflower

But, I would certainly not put anything except sealed rollfilm or 35mm that is truly sealed from any air in or out, in the freezer because moisture WILL crystallize in the film, or when you take it out, condensation will occur - hardcore.

Thanks for the discussion and suggestions, everybody.

I'm leaning toward just putting them in ziplock bags and sticking them in the refrigerator. Yes, I can see condensation, or worse, frozen condensation, doing more harm than good here.

I do have one of those vac-u-seal things, but I don't know if it's worth going thru heroics.

The stuff I picked up this weekend is dated 04/2007 and the stuff I picked up earlier is 02/2007, and, yes, there is a chance that I won't shoot all of it by that date, but I'm hopefully just keeping it cool will be sure it's quite usable long after I shoot it.

Of course now that I have all of that, it should give me an excuse to shoot more, right?

[JoeFriday]

for those of you who are in the "never freeze film" camp, what are your thoughts about shooting photos in freezing weather? obviously the same sort of issues would occur (and possibly would be even more extreme) when the film and the camera are at freezer temperatures.. I pulled several rolls of expired Ektachrome out of my freezer a month ago and let it defrost overnight.. then it was loaded into my M3 and taken out to my car where it stayed for several days in average temperatures of 10 degrees F (probably lower than my freezer temp).. I shot the film and had it all developed with absolutely no problems

I keep all expired film in my freezer, along with any film that I don't plan to use within the next month.. any film that I plan to use sooner than that gets put in the fridge

[kaiyen]

Originally Posted by shutterflower

Merely putting it in a baggie does not promise the total dryness of the air since whatever air you trap in the bag will likely contain moisture particles

Does Kodak/Ilford/etc vacuum seal their rolls? I don't think they do...

there's gotta be moisture in that air, too. but it's not much, and it certainly hasn't caused any problems for me.

But YMMV of course.

allan

ps - I am just as meticulous about my equipment and film as the next person. I am merely passing along my experience.

[Nikon Bob]

I freeze my film (C41) when it gets near the expiry date and have used film that is over 5 years out of date this way. I have not had any trouble doing this and following the previously mentioned precautions (above threads) while in the freezer and while defrosting it.

Bob

[wlewisiii]

I've just been putting all the rolls as I buy them into a gallon sized ziplock and tossing it in the back of the fridge. Then again, I'm not too worried about getting this used up once it gets a bit sunnier again...

If I'm not going to get to it for a long time (year+ ) then it goes in the freezer.

William

[dmr]

Originally Posted by kaiyen

Does Kodak/Ilford/etc vacuum seal their rolls? I don't think they do...

I've kinda wondered about this too.

Years ago, not to show my real age, Kodak sealed all (most) of their B&W film in foil wrappers while packaging all (most?) of their color film, 35mm anyway, in little metal cans, about the size of today's film canisters. I would think that the foil wrapper, which was sealed quite tightly, IIRC, would be better for keeping film than today's canisters.

[jan normandale]

Originally Posted by JoeFriday

for those of you who are in the "never freeze film" camp, what are your thoughts about shooting photos in freezing weather? obviously the same sort of issues would occur (and possibly would be even more extreme) when the film and the camera are at freezer temperatures.. I pulled several rolls of expired Ektachrome out of my freezer a month ago and let it defrost overnight.. then it was loaded into my M3 and taken out to my car where it stayed for several days in average temperatures of 10 degrees F (probably lower than my freezer temp).. I shot the film and had it all developed with absolutely no problems

I keep all expired film in my freezer, along with any film that I don't plan to use within the next month.. any film that I plan to use sooner than that gets put in the fridge

Brett do you leave your camera outside your coat when you are shooting in the cold? Sounds like you do. I'm just cautious, probably for no benefit.

Did anyone see March of the Peguins? I wonder how they shot in Antarctica? Cameras with electric blankets?? Frozen film and cameras were probably normal. I'd be interested to get a comment from a film company manufacturer's technical specialist.

[eli griggs]

Kodak has something to say about storage here http://www.kodak.com/global/en/consu...fo/e30/e30.pdf

It seems heat is more of a concern than cold. though

Cheers

[yarinkel]

I freeze all my film rolls, be it B&W, color negatives, or slide film.
I never noticed any adverse effect.

I put them in a plastic bag with a moisture absorber, them in another plastic bag
again. When I want to use them, I put them from the freezer in the fridge overnight, then I let them sit at room temperature for 3 hours.

All the pictures in my gallery have been shot with cryogenically rescucitated film

[Bryan Lee]

Originally Posted by JoeFriday

for those of you who are in the "never freeze film" camp, what are your thoughts about shooting photos in freezing weather? obviously the same sort of issues would occur (and possibly would be even more extreme) when the film and the camera are at freezer temperatures.. I pulled several rolls of expired Ektachrome out of my freezer a month ago and let it defrost overnight.. then it was loaded into my M3 and taken out to my car where it stayed for several days in average temperatures of 10 degrees F (probably lower than my freezer temp).. I shot the film and had it all developed with absolutely no problems

I keep all expired film in my freezer, along with any film that I don't plan to use within the next month.. any film that I plan to use sooner than that gets put in the fridge

The biggest problems with shooting film in extreme cold is ice on the lense or putting new film in the camera. For shooting Northern Lights from a tripod the rule is once the camera goes outside it stays outside till your fineshed for the night, When you need to warm up the camera does not. Changing film at forty below sucks so the way I overcame this is just with cheep disposable cameras with one big butten and then use the snow machine light for flash. You get some realy cool ice crystals on the lense when you have a bunch of sled dogs around breathing out moisture, I like to call it Ice Bokah. When I was in that environment I cannot recall one problem with frozen film, I believe even frozen film will expose correctly but I may be proven wrong about that.

[ClaremontPhoto]

I grew up buying out of date film, because it was cheap, amd learnt then that it works just fine.

Maybe it's me, but I'm happily using 1997 expiry E6, and 2004 expiry C41 right now and they've never been near the fridge or freezer.

My small stock in my office is in the fridge but that's only because we get mice in there from time to time and the fridge is rodent-proof.

[jaapv]

I do "freeze" film and have used it straight out of the freezer in some cases, after being stupid and running out of film at the wrong moment.. Even film at minus 20 C (at a guess) exposed correctly and was not distinguishable from fresh film. No condensation problems either.I just had to be careful loading it, as it was quite stiff

[kaiyen]

Wow. Now Jaap's experience is quite new to me. It's good to know that it's possible to do that if in a pinch. Though I guess it wouldn't be my general policy :-)

allan

[dmr]

Originally Posted by jaapv

I do "freeze" film and have used it straight out of the freezer in some cases, after being stupid and running out of film at the wrong moment.. Even film at minus 20 C (at a guess) exposed correctly and was not distinguishable from fresh film. No condensation problems either.I just had to be careful loading it, as it was quite stiff

Come to think of it, I'm sure there are many times when I've shot on film that's been near or below freezing.

The attached photo (posted to the photo of the week once) was done over lunch with the Mamiya, which had sat in the car overnight and all morning, with a brief shot of heat while I was driving to work. I do remember that the camera was cold in my hands and I was concerned about the mechanism and the shutter speed, but not of the film. That was really the first time I had used that camera when it was cold.

This was the same Walgreens 200 film as we're discussing here.

Now -- I know that temperature has quite an effect on chemical reactions, like the speed at which they occur. Would the difference of, say, 0c to 20c have enough effect on the photochemical reaction of exposure to affect it to a noticible degree?

[JoeFriday]

Originally Posted by jan normandale

Brett do you leave your camera outside your coat when you are shooting in the cold? Sounds like you do. I'm just cautious, probably for no benefit.

Did anyone see March of the Peguins? I wonder how they shot in Antarctica? Cameras with electric blankets?? Frozen film and cameras were probably normal. I'd be interested to get a comment from a film company manufacturer's technical specialist.

I have a tendency to leave my camera bag in my car for a week or two at a time.. the film and camera are both in subfreezing temperatures on a continuous basis at this time of the year.. I figured if photographers have been shooting photos in conditions like that for decades, there was no point in me worrying about keeping my camera and film toasty all the time

on the other hand, I'm very careful to keep the equipment out of extreme environments.. I won't keep the camera bag in the car for extended periods of time in the summer

[sbug]

I put my film on a shelf that is not in the fridge or the freezer. I figure if I don't take it out of a fridge at the store, why would I put it in one when I get home. I do buy film frequently and use it up pretty quickly though.

My only camera concern in the cold would be the battery life if it had a built in meter. Otherwise, no worries. I'm usually preoccupied with the fact that my hands and nose have gone numb anyway. I am careful to put the camera back in the camera bag before getting back inside so it can warm up slowly without condensation.

[kaiyen]

Well, if it's consumer film which is intended to age on the shelf, then leaving it out of the fridge does make sense. if it's pro film that has been pre-aged, then it makes sense to put it in the fridge.

allan