Best deal on new S3 2000?

x-ray · 12-13-2005

I just received an SP that I purchased from a dealer in San FranCisco. He stated the finder was clean and the body and lens were an 8+. When I unpacked it
I discovered a ding in the glass in the center of the 50 1.4 and coating marks plus fungus in the wide angle finder section. I'm going to call him tomorrow and talk this over. It has a 30 day warranty and depending on what we work out ($) I may return it. If I keep it he's going to have to refund some money to get it cleaned up if it can be. If I deceide to return it I think I want to get a new or near new S3 2000 rather than look for a good used vintage SP or S3. Who has the best prices on the S3 2000. I'm looking for chrome and don't care if it's used but it must be in good shape. I've seen it somewhere for $1,999 but I can't remember where.

Thanks!

Jason_K · 12-13-2005

B&H lists it for $2200.

Robert White has it for £1295. (No idea what that is in dollars)

Huck Finn · 12-14-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason_K

B&H lists it for $2200.

Robert White has it for £1295. (No idea what that is in dollars)

1295 GBP = $2295 USD . . . today.

Brian Sweeney · 12-14-2005

That is an incredible price, as low as the used ones in EX condition a few years ago. Grab one while you can.

Sorry to hear about the SP. The WA finder has a mirror in its that appears to deteriate. Some worse than others. A cleaning will help, but the worst case is a prism needs to be resilvered.

What did the 8/10 condition SP with lens cost from this shop? If it was the $1,999 it seems high to me. I've handled better ones at shows for less, and picked up a good user SP for much less.

pbjbike · 12-14-2005

You might even contact B&H and nicely ask if they can do any better on the S3 kit, especially if you already have an account there. They've had those bodies for a few years now and might want to move them as they've lowered the price several hundred dollars since they were released.

x-ray · 12-14-2005

I paid $1475 for the SP and 50 1.4 but if the dealer had been honest I would not have paid $1000. It's more like a 7 or 7- rather than an 8+. The dealer does have a 30 day stand behind the sale policy and has very good ratings. I didn't buy from ebay but he sell alot there and has a 99.9% posative feedback on over 1100 sales. I don't think there should be any problem with the refund.

I did check B&H and am leaning tword purchasing a new S3 from them. The lenses that I have are the 35 and 105 so that works well with the finder frames. I found another SP in E+ condition from a dealer that I've delt with for over twenty years and trust his evaluation. The SP has a 50 1.4 and the price is $1,990. Even at that price it's getting very close to a new S3 for just $300 more. Although I like the SP there really isn't any difference except the 28, 85 and 135 frames. I don't like 28mm and 135mm focal lengths but do like the 85mm. With the 105mm I probably won't add an 85mm but will probably add a 21mm or 25mm CV which require a finder anyway. Eventhough I like the SP I think I would be ahead getting a new unused S3 that will last the rest of my life without issues. My fear even finding a very clean SP that has no problems now it's still fifty years old and may soon need service and possibly parts that might not be available.

I have to keep in mind this is just a toy for me. I make my living with photography but very little with film. I personally love shooting B&W with my RF cameras and will continue to do so. I have a fantastic pair of Leica M bodies that I'v had for years and a set of lenses from 21 - 135 for them. I have no shortage of premium camera gear. The reason for the Nikon is the lust I've had for them since the 60's. I used M2's and M3's and a friend used S3 and Sp's. I love the Leicas but always lusted after the SP. Now I have some money to play with and I want one. It's not something I'll sit on a shelf but will use it as I use my M Leicas.

Thanks for your thoughts!

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/phot...y.php?cat=5045

einolu · 12-14-2005

The s3 is beautiful, and not a bad deal considering the prices of new leicas these days. The s3 2000 also has the advantage of being a truely 1 of a kind camera. Post some pictures if you do decide to get it!

PS: Really like your gallery BTW.

Brian Sweeney · 12-14-2005

> I found another SP in E+ condition from a dealer that I've delt with for over twenty years and trust his evaluation.

That is a good price for the E+ SP. I would not worry about parts for the SP. It has a lot on common with the F, so you have a lot of parts cameras around. The two share the same Titanium Shutter curtains, and the older SP's using cloth curtains can take the curtains from an F. The price of e+ and better SP's will rise, enough S3-2000's were made to keep the prices steady. Not enough Sp-2005's were produced to bring about a price drop on it, or better condition SP's.

I use both, and will pack an SP and S3 for an outing.

I'll add that my first Nikon RF was an S4. It did not satisfy the Lust for the SP.

furcafe · 12-14-2005

B&H is currently quoting $2295.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason_K

B&H lists it for $2200.

Robert White has it for £1295. (No idea what that is in dollars)

wlewisiii · 12-14-2005

Just as another data point, KEH has two in right now:

S3 CHROME YEAR 2000 LIMITED EDITION WITH 50 F1.4 & CASE WITH HOOD, CAP, 35MM RANGEFINDER MANUAL FOCUS CAMERA OUTFIT
Excellent Plus WAS
$2,469.00
NOW
$2,289.00

S3 CHROME YEAR 2000 LIMITED EDITION WITH 50 F1.4, HOOD, CAP, BOX, 35MM RANGEFINDER MANUAL FOCUS CAMERA OUTFIT
Like New Minus WAS
$2,569.00
NOW
$2,370.00

William

Jason_K · 12-14-2005

Interesting that KEH prices 2 used cameras for more, or close to, the same price as a new one ($2295).

x-ray · 12-14-2005

In researching the prices I've found quite a few used S3 2000 at much higher peices than the new price. One dealer that i've purchased from has a 10- for $3129.

I contacted Koh Cameras who I have delt with for about twnenty plus years. Jimmie Koh had an SP E+ with 50 1.4 and titanium shutter for $1990. Unfortunately he sold it but has a early SP with 1.4 in E+++ condition for $2200 with the cloth shutter. I asked about the SP vs the new S3 2000. His response was if I am going to use the camera buy the S3 2000. Reliability was the issue he said. I feel he's honest because he doesn't even stock the S3 and coud have had a sale if he had said buy the SP. It's always been a pleasure to deal with Jimmie and I have always appreciated his honesty.

Even though I favored the SP, I went ahead and ordered the S3 2000 and lens. In real use the camera will deliver the same satisfaction as the SP but without the frames that I would not have used anyway. In addition I have a new camera with warranty and one that will last for the rest of my life. I will be using my 35 2.5, 50 1.4 and 105mm and will probably add either the 25 or 21mm CV.

Are there any thoughts as to the quality of the 25 vs the 21 CV. I have a 15 in the LTM mount and love it but have no experience with the other lenses. I have a 21 elmarit for my M cameras and have 24mm lenses for both my Nikon film and Canon digital and find the 24 to be used more frequently. For that reason I probably favor the 25mm but also love the 21mm but find it less used.

Thanks again, what a great group, so much different than the digital guys!

VinceC · 12-14-2005

I have to say that, for shooting a 35mm lens, I find the S3 to be a much better camera than the SP. You quickly get used to the busy viewfinder, and you're not switching back and forth between the small wide-angle finder and the main finder. Actually, if you ever wanted to use a 28mm, you could order one of the CV accessory-shoe minifinders, which I'm sure is similar in use to the SP finder. I've also found I prefer the S3 with the 105mm lens. The 28mm lens is my everyday lens -- you can actually use the S3 finder to eyeball it's coverage quite accurately because the field of view is so large, probably the entire field of view is 25mm or so -- and that's at a 1:1 magnification.

Good luck and happy shooting.

ZivcoPhoto · 12-14-2005

X Ray

I adore my 21mm Biogon which I use on my S2, though somewhat more expensive than a CV 21, you will love it. I'd like to get the S3 2000 also...or a nice SP...when you get it I'd like to hear your reaction ...nothing like a new camera. Last year I bought a like new, unused, chrome, documented as such, one owner, from his collection, very late serial number M4....stiill had to have a CLA done on it right away as the slow speeds were erratic...nice camera but I sent it back for repair a year later now for light leak when changing lenses....so much for "new" older cameras. My user S2 continues to purr like a kitten in typical Nikon style I might add. I have had the best luck with my Nikons, used or new...seem to be much more robust than any other camera out there.

ChrisN · 12-15-2005

There's a chrome S3 2000 to watch on the Oz ebay at the moment.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Nikon-S3-rang...QQcmdZViewItem

In fact there's a black one too!

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Nikon-Rangefi...QQcmdZViewItem

No connections, etc (I wish!)

x-ray · 12-15-2005

Thanks everyone! I appreciate the information. I placed my order with B&H yesterday and should have it by Monday. I received my 10.5cm yesterday and got a real cherry. 98% new, smooth focus and aperature, glass perfect, original caps , hood and case. I have a 98% 3.5cm f2.5 coming that should be here today. I bought the 10.5cm from Classic Connection and the 3.5cm from Kevin Cameras. I hadn't purchased from Classic but was extremely pleased. It was better then described and they gave me a $50 discount without asking. I've delt with Kevin before and had nothing but excellent experiences. He probably has the larges selection of premium glass and cameras anywhere but most reflect the condition in the price. Eventhough the price of some of the S equipment seems high it's still a better deal than comperable Leica M equipment. Compare the $2,295 for the new S3 with the price of a vintage M4 and 50 1.4.

sbug · 12-15-2005

I will be interested to hear your thoughts once you get the 35 and the body in and have a few rolls through them. I inherited my dad's vintage S3 with f2.5 35mm and 105mm lenses. I love it. He had it cleaned and adjusted a couple times since he bought it new in 1958 and other than a little wear around the strap lugs and a small ding, it is perfect. Mine has cloth chutter curtains rather than the ti version. Anyhow, I really like using it both with the 35 and the 105. The viewfinder is great although the 35 framelines are tough with my glasses on. If a 'new' 2000 S3 is $2200, what is a 1958 version worth?

VinceC · 12-15-2005

>>If a 'new' 2000 S3 is $2200, what is a 1958 version worth?<<

The vintage ones are worth somewhat less. There was a special black edition put out in the early 1960s, apparently made with unsold leftovers, and these can be quite valuable. But the "ordinary" chrome S3s seem to sell for roughly -- very roughly -- half the price of the new ones, depending on condition. A very fine, well-maintained one would of course fetch more. But the creation of the S3 2000s has sort of flooded the market with S3s. There were only about 14,000 built originally, and the cameras were never considered to be nearly as desirable as the SPs, so they've always had sort of an also-ran status in the collector market. I personally prefer shooting with the S3 over the SP in many situations. The viewfinder has enough markings in it that I've gotten pretty good at "eyeballing" the other focal lengths -- 28, 85 and 135. I, too, wear glasses and can't see the entire 35mm frame. I shoot with my right eye, and I do tend to keep both eyes open, which makes it considerably easier. Otherwise, for critical framing, I concentrate on the corner of the picture where framing is most important.

ZivcoPhoto · 12-15-2005

Vincec

How would you compare the S2 viewfinder v.s. the S3? I have never had an opportunity to look through an S3....is the viewfinider as generous as the S2?

Finder · 12-15-2005

The S3 2000 is somewhat an enigma in the Japanese camera world. Nikon spent a fortune resurecting it - they had to relearn all the rangefinder technology and basically start from square one. All the experience and knowledge to make rangefinders disappeared decades ago when they stopped making them.

wlewisiii · 12-15-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Finder

The S3 2000 is somewhat an enigma in the Japanese camera world. Nikon spent a fortune resurecting it - they had to relearn all the rangefinder technology and basically start from square one. All the experience and knowledge to make rangefinders disappeared decades ago when they stopped making them.

It _is_ odd that way. And yet, I'd be more interested in a chrome S3-2000 than the SP-2005 because it would be a far more sensable camera to throw in a bag and go out the door for a day's shooting. And that, in the end, is all these machines exist for - making images out of silver halides and if they are sitting on a collectors shelf gathering dust then I believe they should have never been made.

I just don't understand collectors I guess

William

VinceC · 12-16-2005

ZivcoPhoto>>Vincec

How would you compare the S2 viewfinder v.s. the S3? I have never had an opportunity to look through an S3....is the viewfinider as generous as the S2?<<

It is much more generous. But also busy because of the three etched focal lengths (35, 50, 105). Just like the S2, it's a 1:1 magnification, and the window is huge, so the actual field of view for someone without glasses is about 25mm. I wear glasses and have trouble using the entire 35mm frame, so I tend to concentrate on one corner. To be honest, one of the top reasons -- if not the top reason -- that I've never lusted after a Leica is because they don't have 1:1 viewfinder magnifications. Some complain that the finder glares, but I've never found that to be a showstopper, partly because the neutral magnification allows me to shoot with both eyes open most of the time.

furcafe · 12-20-2005

Does anyone know if the 5cm/1.4 released w/the S3 2000 is an updated version of the Olympic, the original "Sonnar-type" Nikkor-S, or some new formulation entirely?

Thanks, Chris

x-ray · 12-20-2005

It's my understanding that it's a totally new design. In comparison to the one I hjad for a day that was one of the original designs the new one that I now have is longer. I read that Nikon feels that it's the best 50 1.4 that they've produced. Tomorrow I'll run some film from it and post my observations.

furcafe · 12-21-2005

Thanks. Right after I posted my question, a quick Google research pulled up stuff indicating that it's a multi-coated & updated version of the Olympic 5cm/1.4, which I believe was a Planar-type design (will have to check my Rotoloni). If so, I guess it should be in the same ballpark as Leica's last pre-ASPH version of their 50mm Summilux.

I, too, recently acquired an S3 2000, & will have to put it through its paces when it arrives.

Quote:

Originally Posted by x-ray

It's my understanding that it's a totally new design. In comparison to the one I hjad for a day that was one of the original designs the new one that I now have is longer. I read that Nikon feels that it's the best 50 1.4 that they've produced. Tomorrow I'll run some film from it and post my observations.