Old 12-10-2012   #41
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Originally Posted by IEDEI View Post
true. the M-E is essentially an M9P for a big discount. The 2nd hand market has adjusted accordingly.

I would love to get a 2nd hand M-E...but after it goes down a bit. It's funny as brand new/demo M-Es are already selling for $500 off sticker price! The M-E is not too popular...good news for the 2nd hand market for M-Es i suppose.
Yeah, I'm not sure if the M-E will do too well. It just didn't make too much sense to me. I'm sure a huge part of it was to be able to use what would have been M9-P parts on a camera that Leica could advertise as being "new".
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Old 12-10-2012   #42
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When i bought my M8 in August....prices of the M8 were almost the same as now. M9s were selling for $5500-$6000. Now the M9 is easily attainable for $4k. They are falling fast! I still don't know why they are falling so fast...perhaps because a lot of M9 owners are planning to upgrade to the M.
That was all before the M and ME announcement. But even before that, I think used M9s were already bellow $5000. When the M9-P was announced, the price of the M9 dropped by $1000. At that point, new M9s were around $6000 and used M9s went bellow $5000. It's really scary how these prices drop so much.
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Old 12-10-2012   #43
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Yeah, I'm not sure if the M-E will do too well. It just didn't make too much sense to me.
It needed to be priced lower apparently.
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Old 12-10-2012   #44
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Yeah, the M-E is an interesting wrinkle in the whole thing. I think it will hold used M9 prices to around $4000-$4500 for a while, especially once more used M-Es start coming to market. I know that I'd rather have a used M9 than a used M-E, assuming they're in similar condition, simply because of the frame lever and availability in black (don't really care about the USB port, either way,) so I'd probably pay a little more for a used M9.
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Old 12-10-2012   #45
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MOST M8s on the forums and ebay are selling for over $1800 to $2000. By you saying they should be $1500 doesn't make them sell for that much....i know YOU want it to be $1500 so you can buy one....but that attempt to lower prices won't work, mate....but nice try

I paid around $2k for my fully updated (M8.1/M8U) back in August. Since that time in August.....prices have fallen very little. The M8 is retaining very good values overall, considering all the hooplah and all the talk about it being 'old'....it is still a fantastic camera and can still outshoot a lot of digital cameras out there....especially in B&W where it is enjoying a resurgence of new buyers for.
Don't get so worked up, Buddy. I'm not attempting to manipulate the M8 market; I have had and sold an M8 and an M9, it's not as big a deal to own one as you imagine - I just think I could use a cheap M-Mount IR camera. I. am just stating my opinion on what price it makes sense to pay for an M8 ( that's why I had the "IMO" in my post!) And, I have rationale for my opinion.

When the market on a product drops, as with these cameras, a rational buyer will try to get as close as possible to the lowest price observed. It is always possible that a one or two low priced transactions are an anomaly that can't be matched - the same can be said for high priced transactions. But when, as we have here, multiple examples of M8s selling around $1500-1600 at auction and on forums (as stated by another poster) and multiple examples of them not selling at around $1800, one is wise to take notice if they are in the market to buy.

That should be the target price for a buyer, but you may need patience; the impatient will pay more. Same with sellers, if you are patient you may be able to get $2200, $2900, or $One Million for your M8; the less patient will sell for $1500.

But don't worry, unless you sell your M8, you will not have realized a loss- go enjoy it and don't worry so much!
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Old 12-10-2012   #46
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That was all before the M and ME announcement. But even before that, I think used M9s were already bellow $5000. When the M9-P was announced, the price of the M9 dropped by $1000. At that point, new M9s were around $6000 and used M9s went bellow $5000. It's really scary how these prices drop so much.

Exactly, the new models always have an effect on the used market and it is exacerbated in the current situation. The M8 is dropping, not only because the new new ME and M were announced, but also because the M9 is taking a beating from them.

Nothing unusual about it, but it is a roller coaster. But still I think Leicas hold their value better than most digitals. The M8 retained value is amazing right now considering the lack of availability of the parts fix LCD failures or coffee staining. This is a credit to Leica's generous trade up policy, of course.
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Old 12-11-2012   #47
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I have been perfectly fine with paying 2500 EUR (USD 3500 at the time) for an MP or an M7, however, I am not at all fine with an idea of paying more for a new digital camera, than a couple of years (warranty period) of film, plus, let's say 1000 EUR on top (this is max of what I would be willing to pay for any kind of second hand digital contraption without warranty). .
I have the opposite opinion, the cost of film and scanning is prohibitive and makes an M9 less (possibly much) then the cost of film over 3 years, if we say its 3000 GBP (which most are still over in the UK, despite the postings here). I prefer the flexibility of digital and the general quality, albeit I dip into film occasionally to remind me of all this.

I notice that the average ebay value for a good M9 is 3500 GBP, ones below that seem to sell quite fast

So I think, in contrary to the views expressed here, the M9 price is holding up quite well. And why not, its a FF camera which is as much as most people will need. The M240 is more of a subtle improvement for non-gear heads.
The M9 and M9-P seem to be following the M8.2 depreciation curve quite closely, albeit at an elevated level as the M9's introduction price was 1000 more and the premium ascribed to FF by most shooters.

There can be some dips as some M9 users panic sell in lieu of an M240. Always suspicious of this as how can a real photographer be without a camera for 6 months or more ??

A new M240 at 5100 and a good second hand M9 at 3000 sounds like a difference that will remain for some time
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Old 12-11-2012   #48
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multiple examples of M8s selling around $1500-1600 at auction and on forums (as stated by another poster) and multiple examples of them not selling at around $1800, one is wise to take notice if they are in the market to buy.

But don't worry, unless you sell your M8, you will not have realized a loss- go enjoy it and don't worry so much!
i'm not worried...at all. but you are exaggerating the prices. there are FAR MORE selling for higher than that than whatever amounts you are stating....i haven't found what you're saying to be true anywhere online.
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Old 12-11-2012   #49
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i'm not worried...at all. but you are exaggerating the prices. there are FAR MORE selling for higher than that than whatever amounts you are stating....i haven't found what you're saying to be true anywhere online.
Look at ebay closed auctions... there is a $1500 and $1625 right there. Sure, they don't routinely sell for this, but YES, they do at times.
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Old 12-11-2012   #50
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Look at ebay closed auctions... there is a $1500 and $1625 right there. Sure, they don't routinely sell for this, but YES, they do at times.
But anything does
I have seen a Leica lenses go for scarily low prices as the owner obviously needs the money, or perhaps doesn't care

However I have been observing ebay very closely for over a year. There was a step drop when the 240 was announced but no significant changes since then. I expect M9 prices to be fairly stable for some time now.
There are people waiting for bargains but this will mostly be in vain.
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Old 12-11-2012   #51
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Look at ebay closed auctions... there is a $1500 and $1625 right there. Sure, they don't routinely sell for this, but YES, they do at times.
i JUST calculated the selling price of the last 15 M8s sold on Ebay over the past 1 week and the average selling price is $1950+.
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Old 12-11-2012   #52
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i JUST calculated the selling price of the last 15 M8s sold on Ebay over the past 1 week and the average selling price is $1950+.
Just out of curiosity, were any of those M8u or M8.2s?
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Old 12-11-2012   #53
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i JUST calculated the selling price of the last 15 M8s sold on Ebay over the past 1 week and the average selling price is $1950+.
Ok, you win... we made it all up. Thanks though, your use of capitals and bold helped my little brain comprehend what your points were better.

Anyway, last month (SOLD):

$1216: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leica-M8-bod...item337df02e7b

$1515: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leica-M8-10-...item4abef1ff59

$1615: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Unique-Leica...item416e002145

$1640: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leica-M8-bod...item3f1f482ea3

Note that I said earlier in the thread that prices have went back up... I also said you were both right. You are right that it isn't easy to get a $1500 M8 and he was right in pointing out that they do exist.
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Old 12-11-2012   #54
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Ok, you win... we made it all up. Thanks though, your use of capitals and bold helped my little brain comprehend what your points were better.
average > statistical abnormalities. simple logic, really.

if you need that in caps, let me know and I shall redo it for you.
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Old 12-11-2012   #55
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Just out of curiosity, were any of those M8u or M8.2s?
no, i excluded all M8.1s or M8.2s.
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Old 12-11-2012   #56
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average > statistical abnormalities. simple logic, really.
If I'm buying a M8 (all things equal), should I buy one at the average just for the sake of it or should I buy it at the lowest possible price? Sure, statistics are good for proving your agenda, but when you are buying something, you generally want the best deal. The fact is that M8s have sold for less than you thought they did at times. We didn't get anywhere since I said that your guys were both right. You are right that $1500-1650 isn't the average and he was right that they do go for these prices at times. This is not abnormal, just the ebb and flow of how things sell in Leica land.
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Old 12-11-2012   #57
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It's not new enough. How many of us are changing cameras for genuine improvements rather than lust? Some people genuinely need high ISO performance (but want a sexy range finder more than a boring Canon), but I think most of us hobbyists are just buying for lust. I don't think I've ever bought a camera for a feature I genuinely needed.
Photographers buy lights for necessity, lenses for curiosity and cameras for lust...

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Old 12-11-2012   #58
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If I'm buying a M8 (all things equal), should I buy one at the average just for the sake of it or should I buy it at the lowest possible price? Sure, statistics are good for proving your agenda, but when you are buying something, you generally want the best deal. The fact is that M8s have sold for less than you thought they did at times. We didn't get anywhere since I said that your guys were both right. You are right that $1500-1650 isn't the average and he was right that they do go for these prices at times. This is not abnormal, just the ebb and flow of how things sell in Leica land.
true. but as enthusiasts, i'm pretty sure we are all willing to NOT just buy the cheapest one out there. I'm always weary of the cheapest one....as often they are rough, abused/overused, etc....that being said, one can always get lucky and get a great deal.

either way....truce....truce...for the sake of NYC's 2nd hand M8 market. lol.

speaking of which...check out this bad boy! $2800 for an M9!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LEICA-STEEL-...p2047675.l2557
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Old 12-11-2012   #59
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true. but as enthusiasts, i'm pretty sure we are all willing to NOT just buy the cheapest one out there. I'm always weary of the cheapest one....as often they are rough, abused/overused, etc....that being said, one can always get lucky and get a great deal.

either way....truce....truce...for the sake of NYC's 2nd hand M8 market. lol.
Ok, truce.

Well, the cheapest one was from Ken Hansen... and he's trustworthy. $1200 is just plain stupid. Someone got lucky that day.

Quote:
speaking of which...check out this bad boy! $2800 for an M9!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LEICA-STEEL-...p2047675.l2557
You just broke my heart... I would have bought this had I known. Grrrr.
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Old 12-11-2012   #60
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Ok, truce.

Well, the cheapest one was from Ken Hansen... and he's trustworthy. $1200 is just plain stupid. Someone got lucky that day.

wow...ken hansen sold it for $1200?! that's crazy.
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Old 12-11-2012   #61
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No offense to anybody, but I find all this talk of camera prices just a tad depressing.

It sounds like a bunch of angst-ridden stockmarket traders discussing share prices in the Depression era !

Do people on this forum really lie awake at night worrying about what their camera/gear will be worth in the morning, or next month, or should they have sold it 6 months ago when prices were higher ?

Seems very sad to me. But what do I know, I haven't sold a camera in 30-odd years and I'm too busy trying to wear out the several dozen I presently own to waste time worrying about what they're worth.... (!)
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Old 12-11-2012   #62
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Seems very sad to me. But what do I know, I haven't sold a camera in 30-odd years and I'm too busy trying to wear out the several dozen I presently own to waste time worrying about what they're worth.... (!)
it's just a topic....if you don't like it...why are you reading it?
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Old 12-11-2012   #63
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I haven't sold a camera in 30-odd years and I'm too busy trying to wear out the several dozen I presently own...

This reveals that you are truly fortunate. Many of us have to keep selling cameras (and hence are deeply concerned with their second hand values) in order to buy newer ones.
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Old 12-11-2012   #64
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i'm not worried...at all. but you are exaggerating the prices. there are FAR MORE selling for higher than that than whatever amounts you are stating....i haven't found what you're saying to be true anywhere online.
I' m not exaggerating and what I say is true; because you don't accept it doesn't make it false.

I never said that most sell for the low price, or that it was the average price. I clearly explained my rationale, which cannot be questioned, with honesty. It is unfortunate that you didn't seem to read my post (or try to understand it) before replying. Take a look at the classifieds at RFF- there is a very nice one with several extras that was posted over a month ago and hasn't sold; it has an $1800 price. Look here, getdpi, fm and you see several more cases.

The patient get the best deal, the impatient do not - fact even if you cannot accept it.
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Old 12-11-2012   #65
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Seems very sad to me. But what do I know, I haven't sold a camera in 30-odd years and I'm too busy trying to wear out the several dozen I presently own to waste time worrying about what they're worth.... (!)
Several dozen? Sounds like you don't care about selling because you are a hoarder! I'm interested in the topic because I'm in the market for a M9. It makes sense then right?
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Old 12-11-2012   #66
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Several dozen? Sounds like you don't care about selling because you are a hoarder! I'm interested in the topic because I'm in the market for a M9.
several dozen could be anywhere between 36 and 144 (or more) cameras!!! LOL
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Old 12-11-2012   #67
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@ James24 - - -
Fortunate ? No, just puzzled as to why some people feel compelled to change their cameras as often as their underwear.

Do you lose money every time you sell and buy and sell and buy ?

Did you wear your last camera out ?

In what way is your new camera better than your old camera ?

More reliable ? How would you know, you didn't keep it long enough !

Better pictures ? What does ''better'' mean ?

More sex appeal and ''street cred'' ? Why not, if that's important to you...

So many questions, so little understanding of the constant need for change...
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Old 12-11-2012   #68
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i JUST calculated the selling price of the last 15 M8s sold on Ebay over the past 1 week and the average selling price is $1950+.
Like I said in a previous post, I'd never ever use eBay to determine the going rate of Leica given the number of cameras that are selling for outrageous prices. Just as there are people that sell them for too low, there are people who will buy for a high price.

In my opinion, if there are ENOUGH M8s that are going for $1500-1600 (which multiple people have given example of), why even bother looking at the ones selling for $1800-1900? At this point point in time, it doesn't make sense to me why someone would consider the M8s in the $1800-1900 price range unless they come with extras/warranty and such, or you need one immediately.
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Old 12-11-2012   #69
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Like I said in a previous post, I'd never ever use eBay to determine the going rate of Leica given the number of cameras that are selling for outrageous prices. Just as there are people that sell them for too low, there are people who will buy for a high price.

In my opinion, if there are ENOUGH M8s that are going for $1500-1600 (which multiple people have given example of), why even bother looking at the ones selling for $1800-1900? At this point point in time, it doesn't make sense to me why someone would consider the M8s in the $1800-1900 price range unless they come with extras/warranty and such, or you need one immediately.
that makes NO sense. so you won't use Ebay to determine the average price (which is actually quite accurate...and something i calculated for you), however you will gladly use it to determine the 'low' prices? i have seen no examples of $1500 M8s anywhere aside from Ebay.....zilch. You can't have it both ways.
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Old 12-11-2012   #70
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that makes NO sense. so you won't use Ebay to determine the average price (which is actually quite accurate...and something i calculated for you), however you will gladly use it to determine the 'low' prices? i have seen no examples of $1500 M8s anywhere aside from Ebay.....zilch. You can't have it both ways.
I said not use eBays "average price" to determine what the M8 should be sold for. I didn't say not to buy from eBay. I'd buy from eBay.

What I said was to argue your "average price" calculations. In your post, you equated what you got as "average price" to be the same as what you considered to be the going rate of the M8. If you average out what is on eBay, you probably DO get the figure that you stated, but that takes into account the M8s that are selling for higher. I wouldn't include the higher prices to determine the "going rate" when, like I also said earlier, there are ENOUGH M8s selling in the $1500-1600 price range. I'm sure you'd agree if you were still in the market to buy one today.
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Old 12-11-2012   #71
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@ James24 - - -
Fortunate ? No, just puzzled as to why some people feel compelled to change their cameras as often as their underwear.

Well, we're all different.

I like to change cameras. I have worn some out/broken them but my main motivation for getting a newer one is that I enjoy doing so. It's a part of my hobby. Taking pictures is another part.

Some people buy new cars and change them every year. Some buy one every 10 years and run it into the ground. I don't suppose cameras buyers are any different. And there's room for us all.
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Old 12-11-2012   #72
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@ James24 - - -
You're right - we're all different !

This forum would be bloody boring if we all held the same opinions on everything photographic.

FWIW, I drive an 18-year old car that I've had 10 years and I can't wear that bugger out, either, even after 312,000 miles....
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Old 12-11-2012   #73
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Is Leica glass appreciating? or depreciating at the moment?
Is anyone looking at that?
Every one says it is an investment!
Is that true at the moment? I suspect not, long term/very long term maybe?
New Summicron 50/2 in 2007 was?
& now?
Anyone care?
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Old 12-11-2012   #74
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Is Leica glass appreciating? or depreciating at the moment?
Is anyone looking at that?
Every one says it is an investment!
Is that true at the moment? I suspect not, long term/very long term maybe?
New Summicron 50/2 in 2007 was?
& now?
Anyone care?
When Lady Crisis starts knocking on my door,
I appreciate my Leica lenses even more.

Sold mothers gold teeth and my fathers lore,
and love my Leica lenses more and more.

Rings the usher, friend or foe,
No want no cake, just wants the dough.

Don't be rude, just smile, I say,
And took a picture with a nice bokeh,

C'mon, give me all you got,
Your TV, fridge and all the lot.

You can have it all, and even more,
All but my lenses mine of yore.



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Old 12-11-2012   #75
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I said not use eBays "average price" to determine what the M8 should be sold for. I didn't say not to buy from eBay. I'd buy from eBay.

What I said was to argue your "average price" calculations. In your post, you equated what you got as "average price" to be the same as what you considered to be the going rate of the M8. If you average out what is on eBay, you probably DO get the figure that you stated, but that takes into account the M8s that are selling for higher. I wouldn't include the higher prices to determine the "going rate" when, like I also said earlier, there are ENOUGH M8s selling in the $1500-1600 price range. I'm sure you'd agree if you were still in the market to buy one today.
completely disagree. I have been shopping them for a friend....almost impossible to find them for $1500. the only examples have been EBay....and even those are VERY rare.
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Old 12-11-2012   #76
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completely disagree. I have been shopping them for a friend....almost impossible to find them for $1500. the only examples have been EBay....and even those are VERY rare.
You haven't been looking hard enough then, because they're there. The M8s sold on eBay that were shared in a previous post were sold with only 1-3 bids. Not competitive at all. They're there.

EDIT: Seeing as this back and fourth discusion of ours is not leading to anything useful, I say that we just end it right here. (y)
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Old 12-11-2012   #77
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There's no point in asking, you'll get no reply
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Old 12-11-2012   #78
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You haven't been looking hard enough then, because they're there. The M8s sold on eBay that were shared in a previous post were sold with only 1-3 bids. Not competitive at all. They're there.

EDIT: Seeing as this back and fourth discusion of ours is not leading to anything useful, I say that we just end it right here. (y)
links? nobody has posted any aside from the 3 auctions as discussed before. for every one that sold with 1 buyer on the cheap, there are MANY with lots of bids that sold for $2k. The single bid auctions are likely 'buy it now' listings.

This discussion has no point, however I find that forums are often inundated with misinformation, as witnessed in the 'fatal' LCD issues of the M8 previously and now for pricing of cameras.
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Old 12-12-2012   #79
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Of course you are wrong about the low priced M8s being all Buy It Nows. Looking at the ones JSRocket posted quickly shows that all but one were straight auctions as show below. The one that was Buy It Now was from a dealer. (it did not have the charger, but still an OK deal after adding one for less than $100).

There are also others that sold in that price range - two were $1651 each (one Black -4 bids, one Chrome-6 bids) Plus there are more that topped out, but didn't meet reserve, at $1635/22 Bids and $1675/28 Bids, both a little high of course. In fact just as I was typing this I see an M8 sold for $1642 after 9 bids - and that was in the UK! I am not going to post links, but you should be able to figure out how to find these and determine whether they are Buy It Now or not by yourself.

When you ask for links at other sites, I assume you are thinking that items for sale always sell at the listed price. Many times that is just not true, most people post an optimistic price and are willing to go down from there. If you have a camera advertised for weeks at $1800 and someone offers you a done deal at $1600, you will likely be willing to take it - $200 isn't much difference, only about 11%. (I recently bought a camera for $2700 that was advertised intially for $3200 or so.) You should be able to do searches of forums to see M8s that sit unsold for weeks at $1800 and more - these will likely be sold eventually for hundreds less. You don't go to the car dealership and just pay the sticker price do you?

The bottom line is - given the easily verified evidence, it is silly to think that M8s can't be had for $1500-1600 and to assume that average eBay prices set the market price of private sales. Like I said before, some will over pay, and some will get a good deal. I know that for some people it can hurt to think the camera they bought several months ago could be bought now for hundreds less. That is just way it works sometimes; I try not to think much about the X-Pro1 I bought for around $1500 a few months ago that I could buy now for $1000-1100, but I don't argue with people about the fact that I couldn't get my money back!


Here are the facts about the JSRocket's links.:

$1216: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leica-M8-bod...item337df02e7b - Buy It Now, sold by a well known dealer

$1515: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leica-M8-10-...item4abef1ff59 - NOT a Buy It Now - this drew a single bid

$1615: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Unique-Leica...item416e002145 - NOT a Buy It Now - this drew three bids


$1640: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leica-M8-bod...item3f1f482ea3 - NOT a Buy It Now - this drew two bids
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Old 12-12-2012   #80
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I thought we already determined that both of you are correct?
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