Coffee Stain M8 - a potential sellers dilemma and a general rant!

[doolittle]

I am the owner of a nicely kept, perfectly working black M8 with over 17,000.
I have owned the camera for nearly 2 years now.

---the rant bit---
I never really bonded with the camera, preferring to continue to use film M cameras instead. I am not anti-digital, and enjoy using digital cameras too.
The camera does produce some of the nicest digital files I have seen.
However I never found the M8 experience as satisfying as the M film experience.
Things that bug me: battery life, useless battery indicator,recharging time, losing shots due to buffer and memory card issues - camera locking up and having to take battery out (in fairness I have a handle on those ones now),on/off button easily knocked into self timer mode,frame lines and 1.3 crop. Ironically the coffee stain is the least of my concerns. It's just so much easier, especially when travelling, just to pack a few rolls of film.
------------------

Now that Leica have the M9 upgrade deal in place, due to non-availability of replacement lcd screens I did consider upgrading to an M9. I know some of the issues I have written above have been addressed to a certain extent, but I don't want to take the chance that I will end up with a camera I won't enjoy using much either.

Anyway, I decided to put the camera up for sale. Long story short - prices offered were much lower than I expected and coffee stain either turns potential buyers off or is used as a bargaining point for a low ball offer.
I have since withdrawn it from sale.

My first though was to pony up the cash and avail of the M9 upgrade. Try the camera and sell it if it doesn't work out. My thinking being that an almost new camera with warranty will be a much easier sale. My current thinking is to wait until the new year and see if the Leica upgrade will be extended to the ME and M. The ME presumably requiring less cash and the M because I have high hopes for it.

Anyway, excuse my ramblings, I would really appreciate the thoughts of you, the good and wise people of RFF!

[Pastor Chris]

What is the coffe stain that you are speaking of?

[icebear]

Originally Posted by Pastor Chris

What is the coffe stain that you are speaking of?

+1, totally confusing ... if it's coffee on the outside of the body, it should be possible to clean it ... what's the big deal ?

[Ron (Netherlands)]

'coffee stain' is discoloration (or better coloration with a brownish tint) of the LCD screen, which doesn't really hurt but is a minor selling point of the M8.....

[Pastor Chris]

Btw, I have had a few chances to borrow M9s for extended periods of time and they really just made me appreciate my M8 all the more. I do not have the means to upgrade to an M9 and do not feel at all sorry for that and ended up putting some extra funds into glass.

About the only thing that I especially like about the M9 is the ISO button and the ability to input lens data with a menu. I was left kind of flat my the images by comparison, in that there was no discernible improvement and not as good, IMO, for black and white conversions. Not that the M9 is in any way a bad camera, it is wonderful, but I do not lust after one since I have the M8.

The crop factor was not an issue for me because I started with no lenses and just bought along the way focal lengths that fit my needs. I ended up collecting 6 batteries and rotate through them as needed. I have gotten use to the battery indicator and always have a spare battery on hand anyway. I don't shoot fast enough to have issue with the buffer. The accidental switch on dead battery thing has happened a few times.

Personally, the M9 Monochrom is what I want, but will likely never have. The new M is intriguing but similarly out of reach, so I'm back to being very halo and satisfied with the M8.

I guess that is my rant, or anti-rant. To being said, I am glad that I am not it your position of being able to upgrade but wondering about to what and when. I would get the M8 serviced at Leica, which gives you a 1year warranty, and buy another lens or two that you can use on your M8 and film cameras as well.

I am interested to hear what others have to say.

[Pastor Chris]

Originally Posted by Ron (Netherlands)

'coffee stain' is discoloration (or better coloration with a brownish tint) of the LCD screen, which doesn't really hurt but is a minor selling point of the M8.....

Thanks for the clarification Ron. Makes a lot of sense now, especially in light of the screen availability issue.

[doolittle]

Sorry, didn't explain that one very well.
It's a defect in the lcd screen which results in the appearance of a translucent yellow/brownish stain of varying sizes (mine is about 1cm in diameter), which is especially visible on lighter images. It is a cosmetic defect. Repair, if desired, is no longer possible due to a lack of replacement lcd screens. Thus Leica have offered to give a discounted price on an M9 camera as a replacement.

Sorry for the anti-M8 rant. I guess I am just taking my frustrations out on the camera! I have taken a good few keepers with it and I am never dissatisfied with the final images. Great for Black and white and infra-red images too. Apologies to happy M8 users for the negative vibes!

[jsrockit]

What's the discount on the M9? If it's deep enough I would possibly trade my non-coffee stain M8 for your coffee stain model and upgrade back to the M9.

[Pastor Chris]

What is the discounted price? It would have to be pretty low considering what they are going for only slightly used.

[doolittle]

Taking my info from leica forum . I am open to correction, but I think this is the price you pay, rather than the amount discounted, so it's not a bad offer all things considered.

This is the email I got from my Leica Dealer about the M8 M8.2 Upgrade to a M9:

Beste Jip,

Ik heb al de prijzen binnen gekregen van Leica en dit zie hieronder de kosten voor omruiling buiten de garantie periode:

Within warranty period (2 years): free of charge Within three years: 1500.- EUR (M9) and 1920.- EUR (M9-P) Within four years: 2000.- EUR (M9) and 2420.- EUR (M9-P) Within five years: 2500.- EUR (M9) and 2920.- EUR (M9-P) Within six years: 3000 EUR (M9) and 3420.- EUR (M9-P)

Mochten er nog vragen zijn dan hoor ik het wel van je,

groeten,

Duncan.

[Pastor Chris]

Not bad indeed Doolittle. My wife had a v-lux 20 that I won in a photography contest that our 4 year old used to take pictures in the sandbox. Leica allowed us to upgrade to a current model, the V-lux 40 for $500; a good discount over the $700 street price.

I am guessing an M8 is at the €3000 mark. New camera, new warranty, something to ponder indeed. You might just do it and sell the M8 for whatever you can get and never look back. I would be interested to hear if Leica will extend the same offer to you. I know that the marketing dept has been unloading loaner M9s but I have no idea for how much.

[pieter]

If your idea is to sell to somebody so that he can upgrade to a M9, you would take out many unknowns by doing the upgrade yourself and then selling the M9.
I don't think you should be surprised that nobody wants his relation with the M9 to start with the hassle, paperwork and the potential months of waiting for the upgrade. Especially now that prices are going down for the M9.

[doolittle]

I guess my dilemma is whether to sell the M8 as is at what I consider a low price, or send it in to Leica and avail of a discount priced M9, or hang on for a while and see what, if any, discount against the new M. I don't think I would feel right getting a discount from Leica only to sell the camera on, so would be getting it in good faith to use it.

[doolittle]

Originally Posted by pieter

If your idea is to sell to somebody so that he can upgrade to a M9, you would take out many unknowns by doing the upgrade yourself and then selling the M9.
I don't think you should be surprised that nobody wants his relation with the M9 to start with the hassle, paperwork and the potential months of waiting for the upgrade. Especially now that prices are going down for the M9.

I think that is a very good point. It would be unfair selling it on that basis too, as the information I have on the upgrade so far is hearsay really.

I guess it boils down to whether I want to sell the M8 at a low price, taking into account its defect. I think my answer is no, so I guess I should follow the rabbit hole and see where it leads!

[Pastor Chris]

Does Leica want to take your M8 in trade? They just gave me the discount on the new camera. It was dead, but still sellable for parts. I would check into the mechanics of the whole trade in/trade up deal.

[douglasf13]

Originally Posted by doolittle

I think that is a very good point. It would be unfair selling it on that basis too, as the information I have on the upgrade so far is hearsay really.

I guess it boils down to whether I want to sell the M8 at a low price, taking into account its defect. I think my answer is no, so I guess I should follow the rabbit hole and see where it leads!

How much were you hoping to get for your M8? M8s in great shape are going for under $2K US these days.

[doolittle]

$2000 converts to around €1500 which was what I was hoping for. I was hoping to sell locally as it were, but with the depressed economy here (I know, like everywhere else too!) and the small market not a chance, especially as it has the lcd issue . I guess I could go the ebay route or europe via forums. However I think I will take a chance and send it to Leica and see what comes of it.

[IEDEI]

i say just keep it with the coffee stain.....i rarely use the LCD anyways....and the coffee stain has no impact on the performance of the camera.

if you're looking for a 'film' experience.....stop using the LCD!

[yossarian123]

Agree with the comment above. Coffee stained or not, either way the LCD is damn near useless.

[Gabriel M.A.]

Mine works just fine, and it's useful.

I hope I never think about putting my coffee mug on the LCD.

[Gabriel M.A.]

Originally Posted by Pastor Chris

Does Leica want to take your M8 in trade? They just gave me the discount on the new camera. It was dead, but still sellable for parts. I would check into the mechanics of the whole trade in/trade up deal.

Out of curiosity: how does that work? You call Leica directly and you purchase the M9 from Leica and Leica themselves take your M8 as a "trade-in"?

[ChrisN]

Depreciation on digital cameras is always very high, and residual values low.

Mind you, that's true of the last Leica film M too. You can still buy a new M7 for $5000. What would you expect to pay for a good second hand M7? About $2000?

For me the only logical way to treat these cameras is to write off the cost on the first day, then use them until they die or I get bored. I have several old digital SLRs on the shelf or used by other family members. They are worth too little to try to sell.

[wintoid]

I had the coffee stain on my M8.2. I contacted Leica around the time the furore over this was blowing up. I had to send in the M8.2 for evaluation (they can't determine if the part is from the faulty batch by serial number, it seems). Once they had seen it, they quoted me for upgrade to an M9P, and after much soul searching and a bit of haggling I went for it.

No regrets, although I would like another M8.2 at some point too.

[Ron (Netherlands)]

M8.2's are now offered for about euro 1500 or 1600 so the M8 will normally go below that, lets say Euro 1200 - 1300 and perhaps a 1000 - 1100 with coffee stain?
Never read anything about a trade in by Leica: there is a big price drop in the US on M9 and M9-P I guess to make room for the new M.

[LCT]

Originally Posted by Ron (Netherlands)

M8.2's are now offered for about euro 1500 or 1600...

I would be quite happy to find prices like those. Current ones are around 2000 EUR on e**y. Would you have any links by chance?