Go Back   Rangefinderforum.com > Digital Rangefinder Cameras > Digital Leica M8 / M8.2 / M9 / M-E /Mono / M10 aka "M"

Digital Leica M8 / M8.2 / M9 / M-E /Mono / M10 aka "M" Discussions about the Leica M8 /M 8.2 / M9 / M9-P/ M-E / M Monochrom / M10 aka "M": Leica digital M mount rangefinder cameras. Naming the new digital M the "Leica M" is VERY unfortunate as it will only confuse newbies with other Leica M cameras of the the past. Happily there is room for confusion with only the past 59 years of Leica M production ... since Leica introduced the Leica M system in 1953. All Hail for the Leica Marketing Department learning Leica M history!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes

New M CMOS sensor vs M9 CCD, any thoughts??
Old 12-06-2012   #1
MVCG
Registered User
 
MVCG is offline
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 49
New M CMOS sensor vs M9 CCD, any thoughts??

I'm on a new M T240 waiting list and was thinking whether I would lose anything (photographically) by selling my M9 when buying the new M? I don't really know the theoretical difference between these sensor types (CCD vs CMOS) so thought to ask all of you informed and experienced followers if you can predict or know of any possible differences?
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-06-2012   #2
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
 
jaapv's Avatar
 
jaapv is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Hellevoetsluis,Netherlands
Posts: 7,339
The theoretical differences are quite irrelevant. The practical differences are more to the point. Right now they are known only to the beta testers and they are not breaking their NDA. So we just have to wait and see.
__________________
Jaap








jaapvphotography
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-06-2012   #3
Joosep
Registered User
 
Joosep is offline
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Tallinn, Estonia
Posts: 342
Read this.
Quote:
device production is an event that could possibly alter the product roadmaps and strategies of several companies."

Yes I am waiting for it to pop up in the tests...
__________________
click here for my babies
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-06-2012   #4
icebear
Registered User
 
icebear's Avatar
 
icebear is offline
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: just west of the big apple
Posts: 2,101
Quote:
Originally Posted by MVCG View Post
... if you can predict or know of any possible differences?
I assume no one has the crystal ball on RFF and there are no published files or prints available shot with the M (aka M10). Rumors speak of ISO 6400 with no grain at all, which would be a significant improvement over the M9. We will see.
__________________
Klaus
You have to be there !
M3, M6, MP , M9, MM & a bunch of glass

my gallery:http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffg...d=6650&showall
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-06-2012   #5
prosophos
Registered User
 
prosophos is offline
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 86
My prediction, since the M was announced:

At low ISO values the M9 will have superior IQ
(http://prosophos.com/2012/09/15/the-m9-and-ccd-sensor/)
and
(http://prosophos.com/2012/10/04/cmos...feeling-again/).

Do I know for sure? No. But I bet I'm correct, based on previous experience with CCD vs CMOS sensors.

Cheers,

Peter.
www.prosophos.com
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-06-2012   #6
ChrisP
Grain Lover
 
ChrisP's Avatar
 
ChrisP is offline
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Saskatoon, Sk, Canada
Posts: 342
My prediction would be to compare the output of your M9 to whatever D600 samples you can get a hold of. I'm going to guess the M's 24 mpx sensor will look remarkably similar to the one in D600.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-06-2012   #7
gustavoAvila
Registered User
 
gustavoAvila is offline
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisP View Post
My prediction would be to compare the output of your M9 to whatever D600 samples you can get a hold of. I'm going to guess the M's 24 mpx sensor will look remarkably similar to the one in D600.
I certainly hope not!

With Sony sensors in every new consumer camera (except for the larger sensor Canon's and the Nikon 1's), digital images are becoming boringly similar.

Hopefully the CMOSIS sensor brings something new and unique to the table with regard to image esthetics!
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-06-2012   #8
sleepyhead
Registered User
 
sleepyhead's Avatar
 
sleepyhead is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 1,400
Quote:
Originally Posted by gustavoAvila View Post
I certainly hope not!

With Sony sensors in every new consumer camera (except for the larger sensor Canon's and the Nikon 1's), digital images are becoming boringly similar.

Hopefully the CMOSIS sensor brings something new and unique to the table with regard to image esthetics!
I thought the aim of digital imaging technology was to capture as technically perfect image as possible, leaving the "character" of the image to postprocessing. At least that's what I would want if I didn't still shoot film, where I can change the chacrater to some extent by changing the type of film.

Sorry to get off topic - was just surprised to read this sentiment.
__________________
__________________
Yaron
Film for B&W, digital for colour
My flickr

Last edited by sleepyhead : 12-06-2012 at 20:24. Reason: fixed spelling errors
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-07-2012   #9
Range-rover
Registered User
 
Range-rover is offline
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 964
It's not the sensor guy's it's each of the cameras company's processor's, they tweek
the outputs here and there till they get what they want, and remember there's only
three colors on a sensor red, green and blue and you mix that all together and you
get oh my what a mess! where's my film camera!


Range
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-07-2012   #10
doolittle
Registered User
 
doolittle's Avatar
 
doolittle is offline
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joosep View Post
Read this.



Yes I am waiting for it to pop up in the tests...
Thanks for the link - interesting!

I'm am sure there will be lots of comparison tests between the M9 and the M when it is finally released.

The fog in my crystal ball tells me that there will be subtle nuances which many will prefer in the M9 low iso files (more film like will be the quote). However the M files won't be half bad either and more than acceptable, and at higher iso there will be no contest. What should really win everybody over is the bigger buffer and faster electronics which will banish many of the quirks of the M9 (speaking as an M8 user, which is, I gather, a degree quirkier again than the M9).
__________________
--

fixerofshadows.blogspot.com
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-07-2012   #11
semilog
curmudgeonly optimist
 
semilog's Avatar
 
semilog is offline
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,668
Quote:
Originally Posted by gustavoAvila View Post
With Sony sensors in every new consumer camera (except for the larger sensor Canon's and the Nikon 1's), digital images are becoming boringly similar.
The reason Sony sensors have assumed a dominant position is their technical superiority. What the photographer does pre- and post- exposure determines how the image looks. The sensor, one hopes, is as neutral, efficient, and linear a transducer of the lens's projection as possible.
__________________
There are two kinds of photographers:
those who are interested in what a particular camera can't do,
and those who are interested in what it can do.

semilog.smugmug.com | flickr.com/photos/semilog/
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-07-2012   #12
Ron (Netherlands)
Registered User
 
Ron (Netherlands)'s Avatar
 
Ron (Netherlands) is offline
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,725
They built in live view, that is a pity because without live view they would have used a bigger part of the sensor for the actual still photography. M8 and M9 are really very bad on high iso so if you shoot a lot in the dark, go for the cmos sensor. If you altogether want something which produces 'better' files, go for the D800 - I saw stunning files coming out of that camera (of course you'll loose the rangefinder experience)!
__________________
__________________
When day is done......

Leica: Urleica, IIa synch conversion, M2, M6 TTL Millenium

My Flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-07-2012   #13
v_roma
Registered User
 
v_roma is offline
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 541
Sensors may or may not be neutral (I'm not sure if there aren't inherent qualities to a sensor when it comes to color capture and other things) but the processors used by a camera/company certainly aren't neutral, as Range-rover pointed out. And that affects both RAW and JPEG files. And, even if you intend to do post-processing, it's a lot easier to start with a camera that produces whatever colors you are happy with (because they are accurate or you just find them pleasing).
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-07-2012   #14
Pioneer
Registered User
 
Pioneer's Avatar
 
Pioneer is offline
Join Date: Dec 2011
Age: 60
Posts: 1,318
Yes. Those of you who prefer to shoot in a low light environment will definitely want to buy the new M...

...and then one of you will feel strangely compelled to sell your lightly used Monochrom to me for a VERY low price.

Just focus on the swinging disc and repeat after me...

  Reply With Quote

Old 12-07-2012   #15
douglasf13
Registered User
 
douglasf13's Avatar
 
douglasf13 is offline
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 510
A big difference in the output between the new M and something like a Nikon will likely be the color filter that Leica uses on top of the sensor, assuming they use something similar to the M9's. Leica (and, btw, Sony cameras) tends to focus on good color over great low light performance, whereas Nikon and Canon tend to use weaker color filters to improve low light performance.

Another thing to consider is, while the M will surely perform better in lowlight than the M9, it'll likely also have better dynamic range at low ISO. We'll see. Either way, digital cameras are to the point where they're all pretty good to me, so upgrading would be like trying a new film, which, although it sounds fun, it doesn't sound all that enticing for another $7K. Unless the new M's output is outrageously preferable to me, I'll likely stick with my M9 until it dies. I rarely print over 13x19, anyways, so the M9 does a great job.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-07-2012   #16
Tom Niblick
Registered User
 
Tom Niblick is offline
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 210
I'm mostly curious to see the dynamic range of the new M. If this sensor allows for 1-2 stops more shadow detail compared to the M9, then it could produce better B&W files than the MM. That might be why there is such a slow release planned for this new camera. $1,000 less than the MM, weatherproof, live view, video...

Personally, I need a second body. There are a lot of good choices out there. M, MM, M8, M9 or Nikon D800E. Being patient for the next 6 months in order to see samples and hear the user reports will be the hard part.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-11-2012   #17
Lachie C
Registered User
 
Lachie C is offline
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron (Netherlands) View Post
They built in live view, that is a pity because without live view they would have used a bigger part of the sensor for the actual still photography. M8 and M9 are really very bad on high iso so if you shoot a lot in the dark, go for the cmos sensor. If you altogether want something which produces 'better' files, go for the D800 - I saw stunning files coming out of that camera (of course you'll loose the rangefinder experience)!
I think you'll find live-view is more or less 'free' on modern sensors. The most expensive thing about live-view for leica would be 2 extra buttons, video (liveview with compressed data output to memory card...) and make sure the battery could take it.

One would hope Leica have learnt a lot about power management in cameras...

The new M is also in a new body with a new image processor; only a fool would develop either without video capabilities in the current climate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
A big difference in the output between the new M and something like a Nikon will likely be the color filter that Leica uses on top of the sensor, assuming they use something similar to the M9's. Leica (and, btw, Sony cameras) tends to focus on good color over great low light performance, whereas Nikon and Canon tend to use weaker color filters to improve low light performance.

Another thing to consider is, while the M will surely perform better in lowlight than the M9, it'll likely also have better dynamic range at low ISO. We'll see. Either way, digital cameras are to the point where they're all pretty good to me, so upgrading would be like trying a new film, which, although it sounds fun, it doesn't sound all that enticing for another $7K. Unless the new M's output is outrageously preferable to me, I'll likely stick with my M9 until it dies. I rarely print over 13x19, anyways, so the M9 does a great job.
Plus all that stuff.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-11-2012   #18
flyalf
Registered User
 
flyalf is offline
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Norway, Tromsų
Posts: 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
...
Unless the new M's output is outrageously preferable to me, I'll likely stick with my M9 until it dies. I rarely print over 13x19, anyways, so the M9 does a great job.
Not making any guesses about the M, I would comment on the M9. I dont think we are limited to 13x19 with M9, I've made 1m prints that suits me .

Not meaning to nitpick.
__________________
Regards, Alf Sollund, Tromsų, Norway
------------------------------------
http://alfsollund.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-11-2012   #19
jsrockit
Moderator
 
jsrockit's Avatar
 
jsrockit is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: NYC
Age: 41
Posts: 14,094
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lachie C View Post
The new M is also in a new body with a new image processor; only a fool would develop either without video capabilities in the current climate.
Well, that may be a little overboard. If anyone can get away with it, it's Leica.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-11-2012   #20
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
 
jaapv's Avatar
 
jaapv is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Hellevoetsluis,Netherlands
Posts: 7,339
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Niblick View Post
I'm mostly curious to see the dynamic range of the new M. If this sensor allows for 1-2 stops more shadow detail compared to the M9, then it could produce better B&W files than the MM.
We can file this one under wishful thinking. The strength of the Monochrome comes from the removal of the Bayer filter with its attendant elimination of the (chromatic) aberrations it produces and the lack of interpolation artifacts. Neither of which is implemented in the M. That one will be a superb color camera, outperforming just about any current camera, but the Monochrome will still rule in the B&W domain.
__________________
Jaap








jaapvphotography
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-11-2012   #21
mani
Registered User
 
mani is offline
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 473
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
That one will be a superb color camera, outperforming just about any current camera
As someone who loves my Leica cameras and (particularly) lenses, I still cringe with embarrassment at statements like this, about a totally unknown future quantity.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-11-2012   #22
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
 
jaapv's Avatar
 
jaapv is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Hellevoetsluis,Netherlands
Posts: 7,339
Cringe away - it won't be film

'T is just a prediction based on what I pick up in the field....
__________________
Jaap








jaapvphotography
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-11-2012   #23
maitani
Registered User
 
maitani's Avatar
 
maitani is offline
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 578
from my photokina hands on I dare to say the new M will have super clean 3200, usable up to 5000 iso (alright i have no crystal ball, but this was my impression on the pre-production display pics zoomed to the maximum)

where the M9 hits the limit at around iso 1600.

The main advantege of the new M is that you can use just about any lens ever produced on it.
OM's nikkors, pentax, whatever you like..
thanks to focus peaking and the big and nice display, (also the elecronical finder) not my thing, but can be useful for longer lenses as visoflex. but if you want this it's there. it's the closest to a universal digiback we've seen yet.

the projected framelines, video, etc. are all pluses too, for whom needs it. the processing speed on the new M is amazing, quick write times, quick re-shoot times (this is a slight weakness of the M9 too, rather slow write times due to CCD sensor readout)

If you're the pure rangefinder guy and plan to use M lenses only. and the experience is important to you an M9 might still be the way to go.

I'm most curious if they manage to transfer 'some' of the CCD magic, to the new tweaked CMOS(is) technology, I'm certain it will be beat the M9 at high-iso, but I'm even more curious if it will beat the M9 at base iso.




one of the tech guys on the photokina booth told me it's the goal to retain the special look of CCD as far as possible, and don't look to different to the previous Leica bodys.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-11-2012   #24
douglasf13
Registered User
 
douglasf13's Avatar
 
douglasf13 is offline
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 510
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyalf View Post
Not making any guesses about the M, I would comment on the M9. I dont think we are limited to 13x19 with M9, I've made 1m prints that suits me .

Not meaning to nitpick.
Sure, you can print larger with the M9. I'm just saying that I rarely print larger than 13x19, so I'll likely stick with the M9.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-11-2012   #25
doolittle
Registered User
 
doolittle's Avatar
 
doolittle is offline
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 545
Is there any indication when the first M reviews and image samples will come out? I am guessing the firmware must be approaching release version and that pre-production review copies are soon to be (or already?) out there, with non-disclosure agreements attached?
__________________
--

fixerofshadows.blogspot.com
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 13:00.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.