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Digital Leica M8 / M8.2 / M9 / M-E /Mono / M10 aka "M" Discussions about the Leica M8 /M 8.2 / M9 / M9-P/ M-E / M Monochrom / M10 aka "M": Leica digital M mount rangefinder cameras. Naming the new digital M the "Leica M" is VERY unfortunate as it will only confuse newbies with other Leica M cameras of the the past. Happily there is room for confusion with only the past 59 years of Leica M production ... since Leica introduced the Leica M system in 1953. All Hail for the Leica Marketing Department learning Leica M history!

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Old 10-19-2012   #26
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Chris: fine exposures. That shot in the dunes reminds me of the cover photo from a Dr Paul Wolf book titled something along the lines of Sun and Sand

Ron: a delicious shot of the cobbled street. Perfectly exposed. Loved the composition.

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M8 vs M Monochrome: M8 wins? Maybe!
Old 10-28-2012   #27
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M8 vs M Monochrome: M8 wins? Maybe!

I had a chance to test the M Monochrome at Photo Plus yesterday and what astounded me is the tonal qualities of my M8 were clearly better than what I could see from the monochrome. Yes, I know the mono does better high ISO, but could it be the M8 generates better looking files at ISO 640 and below? One thing is certain, what crippled the M8 in the beginning with the IR issue could be the long term blessing of what still is a wonderful tool for black and white photography. I believe the M8 could well be a black and white classic digital Leica that may be sought after in the years to come. I print on 17" x 27" custom cut Exhibition Fiber on my Epson 3800 and the prints are remarkable. Does this mean the monochrome is not great? Hardly, as we can see from the monochrome threads on this forum. I just feel as I tested the monochome with the lighting conditions at the Photo Plus Expo, the M8 generated better files, especially with a Zeiss 50mm f1.5 that I tried out (FANTASTIC LENS WOW!! Better than my not so old Summicron!). I also looked at the new M and I hate to say it but I was disappointed to some degree. I was more impressed with the Fuji X PRO 1 and the X-E1. The EVF on the X-E1 blew away the M for live view. The LCD on the X Pro-1 blew away the M LCD, especially with my Noctilux in live view. For me, I will stick with my M8's for the rangefinder experience, and I will get the Fuji X Pro-1 if I want live view with M lenses. I may indulge i that wonderful 35mm f1.4 Fujinon as well! If Fuji decides to go full frame, that will be really something!

Also, what is it with those black and white prints at the Leica stand at the Photo Plus Expo? They were just ok. All of them way to contrasty with limited tonal range. Not that great to show off the monochrome in my opinion!
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Old 10-28-2012   #28
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Doubt it, sorry. Just as a bystander with no horse in the race, it doesn't make sense.
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Old 10-28-2012   #29
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delusional is the word that comes to mind...

from what i have seen here on rff i would say you are clutching at straws...
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Old 10-28-2012   #30
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Old 10-28-2012   #31
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so a colleague's personal observations based on using both tools are called 'delussional', by other colleagues looking at pictures on the web? or by colleagues who've also personally worked with both tools?

in either event, similar comments have been made in many different places, including a couple of different threads here all based on the m8's lack of IR filter, all with the significant high iso proviso. in such a situation, name calling seems unnecessary.
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Old 10-28-2012   #32
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Depending of what your aims are: M8 is perfectly OK for web images ( Flickr etc.) but if you are after Exhibition images, M8 will not deliver. I had a chance to shoot withM-M in photokina and have the images on my own card and then process them in Photoshop at home.
No comparison ...
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Old 10-28-2012   #33
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I think even comparing Pan-F and Astia would be more apt, at least the image format is granny apples to fuji apples, even if when it comes to color response it's bananas to watermelons.
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Old 10-28-2012   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbelyell View Post
so a colleague's personal observations based on using both tools are called 'delussional', by other colleagues looking at pictures on the web? or by colleagues who've also personally worked with both tools?

in either event, similar comments have been made in many different places, including a couple of different threads here all based on the m8's lack of IR filter, all with the significant high iso proviso. in such a situation, name calling seems unnecessary.
Agree why backhand the OP?
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Old 10-28-2012   #35
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i found the premise absurd...and i never called anyone a name...i said the word came to mind...are we getting too sensitive around here?
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M8 will not deliver exhibition quality? NUTS!!
Old 10-28-2012   #36
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M8 will not deliver exhibition quality? NUTS!!

I have an exhibition up right now with 27" wide prints from my M8 and everyone is blown away by the image quality!

Another point: The Image quality from the M8 blows away my M6 with film and is more like shooting with my Fuji GSW 690. We are getting spoiled by pixel peeping these days. I have been using film since the 1980's and have an MFA in photography from Pratt Institute. The M8 was my first digital camera and I feel the M9 was too close in performance to upgrade. For me,
I shoot for the final print and I am very happy with what the M8 can deliver. I tested the M9 3 times and printed 17" x 22" and I thought the M8 delivered crisper files.

The M looks like a nice camera, and so does the MM, but I like many do not have 8K lying around and feel from a cost/perfomance perspective, The M8 combined with the X Pro 1 makes more sense for me and others.
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Old 10-28-2012   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eleskin View Post
I just feel as I tested the monochome with the lighting conditions at the Photo Plus Expo, the M8 generated better files


Thanks for sharing by telling. If you have a way to share by showing, it would be even more interesting.

One thing I have not seen discussed: is there an IR filter on the M Monochrom sensor? If yes, why? If not, why? Somebody at Leica must surely know, and one can bet it was a decision that was consciously taken.

BTW, I think you might be very pleased to try the Sigma DP2 Merrill for black and white. I actually took both the DP2 and the M8 out shooting today, but the M8 battery died suddenly in the cold, frustrating my attempts to compare. Preliminary results are that the DP2M has much better tonality and grain, but I haven't been able to print out yet. I'm such an amateur I doubt I'd ever dare post a comparison here, lest I be shredded into hamburger, but maybe I'll share it with you.
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Old 10-28-2012   #38
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I don't think it's at all an absurd idea, to some degree. With good processing it would be impossible to tell the difference between an 8x12 print made with an M8 at iso 320 and one of the same size made with the MM. The MM will definitely distance itself at larger print sizes (like the 17x27 mentioned by OP) and higher iso, but the MM is not so much better on the computer screen that those with no experience can make definitive judgements to the contrary of the OP opinion...perhaps putting a bit too much faith in the opinions of those who dropped $8k on the MM
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Old 10-28-2012   #39
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I am not here to debate a comparison of the M8 and MM (hope I got he designation correct on the latter one).

I do kindly take issue with the comment that the M8 would not deliver exhibition quality images as suggested by Rangefinderfreak. That becomes very subjective, and I would guess there are others on this forum who have produced beautiful prints with their M8 cameras. Similarly, using film, Medium and Large format deliver higher resolution, and expanded tonality, yet the 35mm does just fine for exhibition depending upon the application.
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Old 10-28-2012   #40
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i never said the m8 was a poor performer.

can it compare to a newer camera? i doubt it.

i love the rd1...but can it compare to a newer camera with a new sensor and better processing engines? i doubt it.

i think i'll just stick to moderating and not bother trying to interact...
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Old 10-28-2012   #41
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Hi, besides the struggle i must say the m8 is a superb camera, not by chance the m9 have the same density of pixels of the m8.

The monochrom has the same sensor as the m9 (beside the specific monchrom arrangements)

So it´s not surprise you´ll get astonishing files from the venerable M8...

But consider youre shooting in a well controlled light,a great deal at an exhibition is to get the best light in order to maximize the punch of the products showed.
Then it´s been told the files from the monochom need PP and many say it crucial for the final result...since ou of the camera files are flat...
Another issue with light is the fact the monochrom handles better broad daylight and the shadows produced out on a sunny day...
The m8 will eventually perform not a good as the monochrom on such scenes...
Not to mention the lack of field or sensor crop on the m8.

But anyway, the m8 is fantastic....but using a FF camera squeezes the best of glasses, since on the m8 you must use expensive glass to get shallow dof or faster speeds....
In that respect the FF leicas can use fine glasses but cheaper ones like the sonnar and the vast offer of great 50 mm lenses, at full field...this final thought is out of the post but think it may be helpful...

cheers!
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Old 10-28-2012   #42
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Quote:
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I had a chance to test the M Monochrome at Photo Plus yesterday and what astounded me is the tonal qualities of my M8 were clearly better than what I could see from the monochrome. Yes, I know the mono does better high ISO, but could it be the M8 generates better looking files at ISO 640 and below? One thing is certain, what crippled the M8 in the beginning with the IR issue could be the long term blessing of what still is a wonderful tool for black and white photography. I believe the M8 could well be a black and white classic digital Leica that may be sought after in the years to come. I print on 17" x 27" custom cut Exhibition Fiber on my Epson 3800 and the prints are remarkable. Does this mean the monochrome is not great? Hardly, as we can see from the monochrome threads on this forum. I just feel as I tested the monochome with the lighting conditions at the Photo Plus Expo, the M8 generated better files, especially with a Zeiss 50mm f1.5 that I tried out (FANTASTIC LENS WOW!! Better than my not so old Summicron!). I also looked at the new M and I hate to say it but I was disappointed to some degree. I was more impressed with the Fuji X PRO 1 and the X-E1. The EVF on the X-E1 blew away the M for live view. The LCD on the X Pro-1 blew away the M LCD, especially with my Noctilux in live view. For me, I will stick with my M8's for the rangefinder experience, and I will get the Fuji X Pro-1 if I want live view with M lenses. I may indulge i that wonderful 35mm f1.4 Fujinon as well! If Fuji decides to go full frame, that will be really something!

Also, what is it with those black and white prints at the Leica stand at the Photo Plus Expo? They were just ok. All of them way to contrasty with limited tonal range. Not that great to show off the monochrome in my opinion!
So eleskin has compared Monochrome results to M8 results and gets criticized for sharing his results by people who have not done the same comparison?

By people who don't own either camera?
Really? Seriously?

There has to be other RFF members who own both cameras willing to share their results on this interesting comparison.

Stephen
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Old 10-28-2012   #43
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You've got to admit that it flies in the face of logic though. A company like Leica, as driven as they are by image quality (its sort of their schtik) to design and build a new camera based on digital technology that is still improving, that is outperformed by their previous generation discontinued camera? That is just crazy man.

Would it not be more logical to presume that a difference in output is influenced by inadequate post processing on the part of the user?

And I am not criticizing the OP for sharing his experience, I'm simply suggesting, based on pure logic, that his assertion is in all probability, not the correct.
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Old 10-28-2012   #44
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There's an old LFI article about the M8's b&w files being better than those from the M9 (because of the weaker IR filter). The thinner filter also gives slightly sharper files - so a controlled comparison with the Monochrom would be very interesting in my view, and didn't deserve the knee-jerk dismissal it received.
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Old 10-28-2012   #45
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Guys, does it 'really' matter? File quality aside, the quality of the picture is what counts most. Cameras don't take pictures, people do.
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Old 10-28-2012   #46
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Quote:
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There's an old LFI article about the M8's b&w files being better than those from the M9 (because of the weaker IR filter). The thinner filter also gives slightly sharper files - so a controlled comparison with the Monochrom would be very interesting in my view, and didn't deserve the knee-jerk dismissal it received.
If I were into conspiracy theories, I'd be looking into why the sudden lack of parts for used M8s coincides with the release of the M Monochrom ?

Quote:
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A company like Leica, as driven as they are by image quality (its sort of their schtik) ...
Is that what Leica is driven by?
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Old 10-28-2012   #47
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I am now throwing a hot potato in: I think leica made a mistake by discontinuing M8.
When you look at the smaller sensor size scene now, I think M8, maybe with an improved sensor and processor alghoritms, would have a place in today`s marketplace. reasons?
there is a huge market for economical lenses that can be used with M bayonet, some of them could be offered by leica. keep in mind that within two or three years lens production in Wetzlar will be on a completely different level. Also third party lenses, notably Voigtländer, are performing remarkably well in M8...
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Old 10-28-2012   #48
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Guys, does it 'really' matter?
Not really - but when the MM was announced and everyone had those comparison shots between the M9 and the MM showing how the monochrome files were sharper and had 'better' tonality, I was kinda curious why no-one tested it against the M8. So that's all really - just plain old curiosity. We can't be out shooting masterpieces all the time.
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Old 10-28-2012   #49
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Guys, does it 'really' matter? File quality aside, the quality of the picture is what counts most. Cameras don't take pictures, people do.
well, it matters to me.

Considering what the Monochrom sells for compared to a used M8 or 8.2

If B/W from the older cameras are even remotely close to the much more expensive Monochrome at slower ISO's that is GREAT news to me - I own a 8.2!

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Old 10-28-2012   #50
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Ahhh .
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