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CSC : Digital Compact System Cameras - This new category of digital Compact System Cameras with interchangeable lenses was mislabeled for a time as "Mirrorless Cameras" by those forgetting about "Mirrorless" Rangefinder cameras.  Such confusion is easily understandable, since interchangeable rangefinder cameras were only recently introduced in 1932.  hmm.    CSC or Compact System Camera is probably the best category description to date, although I am fond of the old RFF desigation of  CEVIL  indicating Compact Electronic Viewfidner Interchangeable Lens.   This forum is here at RFF because via adapters these cameras offer an inexpensive way to use rangefinder lenses on digital cameras -- in addition of just about every 35mm SLR lens you can think of.  All  offer the photo enthusiast an incredible array of adopted lenses which was not possible before these new digital formats.   This group continues to grow in popularity and new camera models! 

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I want someone to build this camera for me!
Old 08-02-2012   #1
Keith
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I want someone to build this camera for me!

Full frame (24x36) digital ... sensor from the D700 would be fine.

Good usable ISO up to 6400 ... as per D700. ^^^

Electronic viewfinder ... like my OM-D. (you can focus it in the dark ~ incredible!)

In camera image stabilization ... like the OM-D.

Somewhere between the size of the D700 and the OM-D. (controls are a little squeezy on the OM-D and the Nikon is a tank)

Built tough
... like the Nikon. (already broke the viewfinder eyecup of the OM-D just getting it out of the camera bag for ****'s sake!)


Is this so much to ask?
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Old 08-02-2012   #2
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Hm ... I want a digital XPAN, panoramic-sized CMOS sensor, pure optical VF/RF and three interchangeable lenses (similar fov as the XPAN).
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Old 08-02-2012   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith View Post
Full frame (24x36) digital ... sensor from the D700 would be fine.

Good usable ISO up to 6400 ... as per D700.

Electronic viewfinder ... like my OM-D. (you can focus it in the dark ~ incredible!)

In camera image stabilization ... like the OM-D.

Somewhere between the size of the D700 and the OM-D. (controls are a little squeezy on the OM-D and the Nikon is a tank)

Built tough
... like the Nikon. (already broke the viewfinder eyecup of the OM-D just getting it out of the camera bag for ****'s sake!)


Is this so much to ask?
Could be the new D600. EVF is overrated IMHO, I like to just visualize the look thru an optical VF. But that is just me.
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Old 08-02-2012   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maddoc View Post
Hm ... I want a digital XPAN, panoramic-sized CMOS sensor, pure optical VF/RF and three interchangeable lenses (similar fov as the XPAN).
i think i could love this camera!
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Old 08-02-2012   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maddoc View Post
Hm ... I want a digital XPAN, panoramic-sized CMOS sensor, pure optical VF/RF and three interchangeable lenses (similar fov as the XPAN).
+1

I would love one...But I don't think it will happen.. But we an dream

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Old 08-02-2012   #6
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Old 08-02-2012   #7
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Lotta love for a digital X-Pan here ... who would have thought?
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Old 08-02-2012   #8
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if you have nasa's budget, you can get a rover plus cameras you design-
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Old 08-02-2012   #9
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I want a F2 and a MP both with high ISO 30X45 S2 type sensors. If you are going to dream dream big.
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Old 08-02-2012   #10
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Slightly off topic

How about the digital holy grail for legacy camera body...?

The digital film cartridge that some startup in the late 80 or early 90 tried to do? The electronics was in the main cartridge and the sensor was on a thin strip across the shutter. The company went under before it came out with a prototype if I remember correctly. Later I heard a rumor it was all marketing...

Of course if u going to dream, it would be a full frame 35mm 40mpx

Gary
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Old 08-02-2012   #11
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They already have. It's called an M9, now if I can figure a way to afford one.
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Old 08-02-2012   #12
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I want someone to build this for ME:

12MP 24X36 35mm film size sensor

Nice bright large pentaprism viewfinder

Changeable focus screens

30 sec to 1/4000th shutter

Quality ISO from 100 to 3200

Simple firmware, no video just Program, Av, Tv and Manual modes.

Different "modules" that slide onto the front of the camera holding just the mechanical linkage to allow full function with these mounts:


Canon FD
Minolta MD
Olympus OM
Konica AR
Pentax K Mount/M42 combo

All with decent weather sealing and in a package the same overall size of my Pentax K10.

Selling prices:

$1000 US for the body

$150 US for each module

Kodak should do this and make it a top priority, it could turn them around in a hurry.

The real R&D needed for this should pale in comparison to developing a brand new Canon or Nikon. The technology needed is 3-4 years past it's prime and could be built from off-the-shelf components.

Or am I crazy?
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Old 08-02-2012   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryLH View Post
Slightly off topic

How about the digital holy grail for legacy camera body...?

The digital film cartridge that some startup in the late 80 or early 90 tried to do? The electronics was in the main cartridge and the sensor was on a thin strip across the shutter. The company went under before it came out with a prototype if I remember correctly. Later I heard a rumor it was all marketing...

Of course if u going to dream, it would be a full frame 35mm 40mpx

Gary
It could very well have been all marketing at the time, trying to sense the interest. There are several factors at play here:
# Will the cost of the unit approximate the cost of a full digital camera with the same IQ specs?
# Will users be willing to pay the cost of the unit instead of buying a full digital camera with the same IQ specs?
# Will enough users hold on to their analogue cameras, that there will actually be a market for the unit?

It seems likely to me that such a market probe at the time would have resulted in lack of interest with users, because they didn´t want to hold on to their analogue cameras.

I would have liked to have this option today, freeing me from dragging both analogue and digital camera along. The instant-vewing-factor means nothing to me. You would probably have to open the camera to change sensitivity (ISO) on the unit. I wouldn´t have minded that either, since I have to do that already when changing to a film with another sensitivity.
For me, 10 megapixels with such a unit would have sufficed, providing it gave me the option to choose ISO from 100 to 3200, with a decent result noise-wise.
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Old 08-02-2012   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith View Post
Full frame (24x36) digital ... sensor from the D700 would be fine.

Good usable ISO up to 6400 ... as per D700. ^^^

Electronic viewfinder ... like my OM-D. (you can focus it in the dark ~ incredible!)

In camera image stabilization ... like the OM-D.

Somewhere between the size of the D700 and the OM-D. (controls are a little squeezy on the OM-D and the Nikon is a tank)

Built tough
... like the Nikon. (already broke the viewfinder eyecup of the OM-D just getting it out of the camera bag for ****'s sake!)


Is this so much to ask?

Actually.. What you describe should be exactly what the new Sony FF camera due out this year is. Full frame, EVF, smaller body, in body IS.

Unfortunately it's also a Sony, which means it'll probably be crippled in some way.
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Old 08-03-2012   #15
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A camera with build-in talent.
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Old 08-03-2012   #16
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A camera with build-in talent.
... your camera would produce the better photos I expect
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Old 08-03-2012   #17
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... your camera would produce the better photos I expect
Absolutely.
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Old 08-03-2012   #18
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nice thought, Keith.
The problem with ff sensors is the need for retrofocus lenses. Manufacturers have tried to get around the problem (of oblique rays hitting the sensor) using offset microlenses.
What I want to see is a digital ff sensor that is curved in 3 dimensions (like a bowl) to allow a plane of focus that is equidistant from the lens exit element across its entire surface. That would enable existing M-lenses to focus accurately across the entire frame without the problems associated with oblique rays or work-arounds like offset microlenses.
That would be nirvana!
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Old 08-03-2012   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zerobuttons View Post
It could very well have been all marketing at the time, trying to sense the interest. There are several factors at play here:
# Will the cost of the unit approximate the cost of a full digital camera with the same IQ specs?
# Will users be willing to pay the cost of the unit instead of buying a full digital camera with the same IQ specs?
# Will enough users hold on to their analogue cameras, that there will actually be a market for the unit?

It seems likely to me that such a market probe at the time would have resulted in lack of interest with users, because they didn´t want to hold on to their analogue cameras.

I would have liked to have this option today, freeing me from dragging both analogue and digital camera along. The instant-vewing-factor means nothing to me. You would probably have to open the camera to change sensitivity (ISO) on the unit. I wouldn´t have minded that either, since I have to do that already when changing to a film with another sensitivity.
For me, 10 megapixels with such a unit would have sufficed, providing it gave me the option to choose ISO from 100 to 3200, with a decent result noise-wise.
I have often dreamed of such a module. But I am still not giving up film so I guess not having it isn't going to stop me from taking photos. But it would be neat to be able to switch from digital to film with such ease.
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Old 08-03-2012   #20
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I want a digital back to clip on to my OM-1 and OM-2sp bodies.

For $1000.

Hey, I'll make a few concessions to keep the price down to $1K. The sensor can be 18X24mm, and by the way comes with a new set of focusing screens for the OM marked to show the field of view. The power supply/card holder/electronics etc. are housed in a power winder sized box that attaches to the bottom of the camera.

Did I mention the price, $1K?

Oh HE double hockey sticks! If I'm going to dream lets say there are 2 versions, one for color and one without the Bayer array for B&W only.

And no, they can't charge me twice a much for the B&W only sensor. Same price for each unit $1K.


Can be tethered for studio use. Direct dial for ISO setting. A small battery powered mobile ink jet printer is also available for printing 3X4 inch prints in the field to hand out to the rabble. Price $400.

Hey, this dreaming stuff is kinda fun.
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Old 08-03-2012   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lynnb View Post
nice thought, Keith.
The problem with ff sensors is the need for retrofocus lenses. Manufacturers have tried to get around the problem (of oblique rays hitting the sensor) using offset microlenses.
What I want to see is a digital ff sensor that is curved in 3 dimensions (like a bowl) to allow a plane of focus that is equidistant from the lens exit element across its entire surface. That would enable existing M-lenses to focus accurately across the entire frame without the problems associated with oblique rays or work-arounds like offset microlenses.
That would be nirvana!
Having worked for Texas Instruments for IC and Darlington production I doubt that an efficient masking technology could be developed for spherical surfaces, especially for today's requirements of generally less than 1-micron resolution. Etching could be another substantial issue as depth is to be measured in reference to a plane.

Also, such a curved surface would work fine with lenses of over 45-50 degrees, but what about the teles?

I think this was one of the reasons why the major players were (apparently) cautious in jumping into the mirrorless sector; what the Nex-7 wrt the Nex-5N has pointed to: Offset microlenses seem to be the only solution and not a costly one; however they function well with CCD-cells but not so well with the CMOS.. Certainly there should be a R&D going on in regard to this issue.

Also, pure conventional designs might not work well on the CCD-microlenses too (Biogon 21/4.5 or Summilux 24/1.4 corner smearing or color shift issues.. ) The best design approach is from Fujifilm XP1, totally custom design with huge rear elements however they were to cover only APS-C format.

IMHO, there could be also another factor for this: The future full-size due to AF and size requirements could well be the APS-C size.. Today the APS-C can easily satisfy the ISO-6400 capability, resolution of 24MP (next year most certainly over 30MP) and the lens design for this format could be less problematic than the one for FF.. I think Leica too is working on this format for their future models, we might even see a concept camera in this Photokina. (AF is unavoidable for any company to survive.)
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Old 08-03-2012   #22
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Nice game. My fantasy camera is a back to basics one, something exactly like my Leica M3, only with a sensor instead of film. Top range, full frame sensor, with dynamic range like film, high resolution, and high iso performance. Marry that to a body no bigger than my M3, and don't give me anything else, other than a meter, ability to control aperture, shutter speed, iso and white balance, all with a viewfinder and build quality from a bygone age. Forget about the lcd, or any other incentive for me to tinker with settings, I will review pictures afterwards, and will plug the camera into my computer via usb to change settings. Settings could be allocated to a specific bank (A, B, C, D, etc), and a hard control on the body would allow you to switch between them as you wished. Think of it as the ability to change film on the fly.

Most of all, my fantasy would be for such a camera to be designed by a company like Ricoh, who are in the business (at least with their GR-D range) of designing and making cameras for photographers. This would be a serious machine for photographers, unpolluted with unnecessaries. In fact, would love if some lunatic at Leica was reading this, and saw that they could go with such a camera above, and maintain everything a lot of people like about Leica, while at the same time running a second range of rangefinders, where innovation would rule supreme with evf's, zoomable viewfinders, et al.
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Old 08-03-2012   #23
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thanks BobYIL, that's very interesting!
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Old 08-03-2012   #24
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I happy with my camera equipment but I would like to see a digital Mamiya 7ii with a 6x7 sensor and perhaps an X100 that takes film.*

Not a lot to ask is it?







*Obviously all for $1K or $1.5k for the two.
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Old 08-03-2012   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryLH View Post
Slightly off topic

How about the digital holy grail for legacy camera body...?

The digital film cartridge that some startup in the late 80 or early 90 tried to do? The electronics was in the main cartridge and the sensor was on a thin strip across the shutter. The company went under before it came out with a prototype if I remember correctly. Later I heard a rumor it was all marketing...

Of course if u going to dream, it would be a full frame 35mm 40mpx

Gary
Complete with PCMCIA connector!
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