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CSC : Digital Compact System Cameras - This new category of digital Compact System Cameras with interchangeable lenses was mislabeled for a time as "Mirrorless Cameras" by those forgetting about "Mirrorless" Rangefinder cameras.  Such confusion is easily understandable, since interchangeable rangefinder cameras were only recently introduced in 1932.  hmm.    CSC or Compact System Camera is probably the best category description to date, although I am fond of the old RFF desigation of  CEVIL  indicating Compact Electronic Viewfidner Interchangeable Lens.   This forum is here at RFF because via adapters these cameras offer an inexpensive way to use rangefinder lenses on digital cameras -- in addition of just about every 35mm SLR lens you can think of.  All  offer the photo enthusiast an incredible array of adopted lenses which was not possible before these new digital formats.   This group continues to grow in popularity and new camera models! 

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Old 07-21-2012   #41
Athos6
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I don't mind the looks. The lack of controls is ok as long as the touch screen is implemented well. Same with the lack of an EVF. The larger sensor (vs Nikon 1) is good. I won't miss the flash if the high ISO is good. I probably will buy something like this until a 50mm X100 type camera comes out (that's not the Dp2m).... Price must be < $700
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Old 07-21-2012   #42
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Yeah I really don't mind the look of it either. I just got a Canon XA10 (for work) and there's a big touch-screen integration in that machine. It takes a little getting use to but I like using the camera more for video than I ever did with a DSLR.

Reasons this appeals to me: My Canon s90 is on its last legs, I loved that camera and the photos I took with it. Small and mighty, but also kind of slow and has a tiny sensor. I'm finding room for film in my life is getting to be difficult, and I'd like the ease of a compact digital kit. The 35mm equivalent lens appeals to me since I love the the Stylus Epic 35mm lens compact (hopefully it'll be as nice of a lens on the Canon but that also remains to be seen).
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Old 07-21-2012   #43
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i think it's design compares favorably to other camera in its class: olympus e-pm1/pl3, panasonic gf5, sony nex-f3, nikon j1, and samsung nx1000.

it's a good example of the trend to add sharper, geometric lines and forms to the usual plastic blob.
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Old 07-21-2012   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulfish4570 View Post
i don't think it's bad looking at all. the proprietary strap lugs, though: why make it difficult to use one's own favorite strap? so the owner has to use one with canon printed on it, i suppose.
You can always paint the C over with a black magic marker to make it anonymous. :-P

Quote:
Originally Posted by dweekie View Post
Your 5 year old niece has a cell phone? I'm getting old...
In Finland 5 year old with a cellphone is not that uncommon, but I quess most kids get their own cellphones when they go to school (when they are about 7 years old). The world is changing.

I wonder when people start to understand that using a real viewfinder improves stability and makes framing easier on bright daylight... Or maybe the stabilizers and screens will just improve so much that it doesn't really matter.
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Old 07-21-2012   #45
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Originally Posted by stompyq View Post
I don't see any difference between this and the Olympus OM-D that everyone seems to get wet dreams over. Both are ugly. So what??
"Ugly" of course is in the eye of the beholder. I happen to like the OM-D's looks just fine. Still, compared to the OM-D, the new Canon offers the following "features":
  • NO built-in EVF (nor, it appears, any way to attach an external EVF).
  • Limited lens selection, thanks to Yet Another All-New Lens Mount.

In short, it gives me precisely no regrets at having just shelled out for an OM-D outfit.

That said, the only thing curious about the announcement that Canon was getting into the MILC (not EVIL, this camera has no EV) market was that it took so long, particularly given how Canon has typically been one of the more technologically-inclined camera manufacturers.
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Old 07-21-2012   #46
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Originally Posted by emraphoto View Post
I would humbly suggest you try a Nikon 1 series out for a while. I am using the V1 and consider it an extremely capable camera.
actually, right after i posted that i saw your thread about your experiences with the Nikon 1 and i must say that i was intrigued. you're right, i've never tried one and i should try one before knocking it. i guess i was just hoping for a different kind of camera both from Nikon and Canon.

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Originally Posted by shadowfox View Post
Boring specs, boring implementation (no innovation whatsoever), and even worse looks.
what specs? i have yet to see anything but photos.
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Old 07-23-2012   #47
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*bump*

Quote:
Canon EOS M Specifications
18mp APS-C
DIGIC V
ISO 100-12800 (25,600 Expansion)
3″ Touchscreen 1.04million pixels
Phase & Contrast AF
Video Servo AF
1920×1080 Video 30p/25p/24p
1280×720 Video 60p/50p
MPEG-4, AVC/H.264
SD Card
Adaptor at launch for EF lenses

Additional specs
Hand-held Twilight mode, to help with long exposures in low light.
Multi-shot noise reduction function that helps reduce the noise by combining four images.
The usual creative filters
HDR mode to synthesize three different exposures
Camera size: 66.5mm (width) 108.6mm (height) x 32.3mm (depth)
The weight (body only) 262g, (including battery and memory card) 298g
hands-on video:
http://youtu.be/Sa_9kNAMcIw

lots more info:
http://www.canonrumors.com
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Old 07-23-2012   #48
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Not for me, I like the G12/G1X aesthetic, this is a bit too rounded and civilised for me. No EVF or even an option for an EVF rules it out. The Nikon V1 of course has a smaller sensor, but I think I'd opt for it just for the EVF.
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Old 07-23-2012   #49
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well, at least now, a full frame mirrorless is really possible.
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DPR Preview Is Available
Old 07-23-2012   #50
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DPR Preview Is Available

So far, the only interesting "new" thing is that canon EF lenses can be mounted to the EF-M.
http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canon-eos-m/
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Old 07-23-2012   #51
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Well, according to dpreview, they've copied at least one aspect from the Fuji. Slow focusing!
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Old 07-23-2012   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul T. View Post
Well, according to dpreview, they've copied at least one aspect from the Fuji. Slow focusing!
At least they didn't copy it from their own line-up: previous 1D-series non-focus
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Old 07-23-2012   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igi View Post
well, at least now, a full frame mirrorless is really possible.
"The EF-M mount is 58mm in diameter, with a flange distance of 18mm from the bayonet to the sensor. As the image above clearly shows it's matched specifically to the APS-C sensor size. So don't expect a future full frame EF-M mount camera - it's not going to happen." From DPR
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Old 07-23-2012   #54
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(Wanders off to check out the new Panasonic LX7, put some more pennies into my Nex 5N or 7 account and shoot some film.)
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Old 07-23-2012   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kahudson View Post
"The EF-M mount is 58mm in diameter, with a flange distance of 18mm from the bayonet to the sensor. As the image above clearly shows it's matched specifically to the APS-C sensor size. So don't expect a future full frame EF-M mount camera - it's not going to happen." From DPR
I meant an EF mount since they gave in to the mirrorless trend and have the full frame lenses... something which has been stopping the other mirrorless players.
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Old 07-23-2012   #56
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Originally Posted by igi View Post
I meant an EF mount since they gave in to the mirrorless trend and have the full frame lenses... something which has been stopping the other mirrorless players.
Sure, but if they go EF mount the camera's not going to be thin due to the large flange-to-sensor distance in the EF standard. So they'll end up with something that might as well have had a mirror box like the Pentax KO-1.

What Canon is saying here by introducing a 1.6 crop mirrorless is unambiguous: Panasonic and Olympus [2.0], Fuji and Samsung [1.5] all have found the optimal balance between sensor, lens, and camera size, and image quality. And for most people, that balance does not favor FF.
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Old 07-23-2012   #57
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Originally Posted by semilog View Post
Sure, but if they go EF mount the camera's not going to be thin due to the large flange-to-sensor distance in the EF standard. So they'll end up with something that might as well have had a mirror box like the Pentax KO-1.

What Canon is saying here by introducing a 1.6 crop mirrorless is unambiguous: Panasonic and Olympus [2.0], Fuji and Samsung [1.5] all have found the optimal balance between sensor, lens, and camera size, and image quality. And for most people, that balance does not favor FF.
I wonder why Sony, which is the most successful APS-C mirrorless producer to date. Was not mentioned alongside the other four manufacturers you named above.
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Old 07-23-2012   #58
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It's just a not-so-fast-follower product, a "me too" product to fill a gap in their line-up. Somebody who has alway bought "consumer" Canon gear won't have to switch brands to get a trendy mirrorless.

Better to have a slightly inferior product than nothing at all to defend the "consumer" market share, I suppose. I would expect much better from Canon in the future; I think the format/technology is evolving too fast for a "statement" product.
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Old 07-23-2012   #59
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The main problem I have with this and the Nikon 1 is that the functionality of the camera is aimed consumers wanting to upgrade from P&S cameras. Unfortunately, the new Sony large sensor P&S, and large sensor compacts in general, are a much better type upgrade for those people. Most consumers I know would want the zoom, yet that kills the form factor. So with what its likely to be the preferred option, its still not a pocket camera and barely a purse camera. Finally, the $800 price tag is too much for a T4i and its too much for the EOS-M. Personally, I would buy the new Sony over this as my walk around camera for that very reason. That's even after I swore to never buy a camera with less than a FF sensor again....

So this camera is not for me, I knew that the moment I saw that it came in a color other that black and silver. That is fine. Yet, in a market were there are so many better options would Canon release this camera? Say I was going to buy a mirrorless camera tomorrow. What would make me buy this over a Nex-5n, OM-D, GH2/G5/GF, or Pen cameras? Features? No, the EOS-M has nothing that these others don't. Len selection and quality? No. Sensor size? No. Speed? No. Price? No. Size? No. The whole thing is just Meh.... So what would I buy? The Nex 5n. The size is in the same league, the lens selection is in the same league, the feature set is better, the image quality is better and the sensor is a tiny bit bigger 1.5 crop vs 1.6 crop.

I really don't get why they didn't come to the market strong...

Update: the Camera hit Amazon Per-order #1 spot.... I guess people don't care that there are better options.
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Old 07-23-2012   #60
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i wonder what the image quality will be like...
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Old 07-23-2012   #61
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I don't, at all, think it's "ugly." It just isn't a very inspiring design. But, i thought the rumors suggested there were going to be two models. A high- and a low- end. This one must be the low.

• I like that they have a small 35mm-e at launch. But, i wonder how large the upcoming lenses will be. If the e-50mm is going to be long and unwieldy, i'll have no interest in the system.
• I don't like a non-articulating screen, especially without a viewfinder.
• It is quite small. Not much wider and higher than a Contax T3.
• But, still — it's not pocketable, except in a jacket. There's a certain minimum size a camera has to be — a pocket threshold. This still doesn't meet it, so the tiny-ish-ness might make it clumsy to operate.
• No controls for aperture/shutter speed. From a video i saw, it seems you need to access a menu to change these parameters, as if you're changing ISO. That is a major dealbreaker for me. Unless they have a screen that remains on while the camera's operating, that has a simple finger swipe gesture to change time and aperture, without pushing a button to access them.
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Old 07-23-2012   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by back alley View Post
i wonder what the image quality will be like...
Same as the T4i right, its the same camera really....
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Old 07-23-2012   #63
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what's a t4i?
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Old 07-23-2012   #64
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Quote:
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what's a t4i?

Sorry, the Canon Rebel T4i alternately known as the Canon 650D. They seem to be the same camera, one with a mirror and one without.
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Old 07-23-2012   #65
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Sorry, the Canon Rebel T4i alternately known as the Canon 650D. They seem to be the same camera, one with a mirror and one without.
thanks...i'll do some research...
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Old 07-23-2012   #66
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T4i is the American designation for the 650D
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Old 07-24-2012   #67
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Apparently, it is selling well. http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/home...era-at-amazon/
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Old 07-24-2012   #68
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pretty conservative design from Canon. G1X has more manual controls, but sure we will see prosumer EOS-M at some point. yet another lens mount is sad, but alternative is take Pentax K01 path and compromise the design.
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Old 07-24-2012   #69
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Well i guess canon finally states mirror cameras are past...future belongs to mirror less cameras...an EVF´s...

Hope we can see again a rangefinder camera made by canon....
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Old 07-24-2012   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by back alley View Post
i wonder what the image quality will be like...
i have an older t2i and the image quality from it is fantastic, and has been said to be even slightly better than the 7D, a higher line body. i don't think the t3i and t4i improved IQ that much (they added tilt screen (t3i) and better AF(t4i)) , but they didn't really need to. if canon puts some better controls on this M line it will be very very good.
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Old 07-24-2012   #71
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For the record, that "wheel" around the shutter button is just a three-selection switch. It has Full Auto, Program (allowing P,S,A,M Modes to be selected via menu) and Video.

Ho hum...

For being the last camera-maker to enter the mirrorless market, they sure dropped the ball for us enthusiasts and pros looking for something small and light to travel with. About the only inspiring thing is the APS-C and 35mm f/2 lens. I'll stick with my 5D Classic and 40/2.8 STM combo for now, thanks.
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Old 07-24-2012   #72
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Originally Posted by matthewm View Post
For the record, that "wheel" around the shutter button is just a three-selection switch. It has Full Auto, Program (allowing P,S,A,M Modes to be selected via menu) and Video.

Ho hum...
didn't know that, guess this is really designed for full LCD control. the market for people moving up from point and shoots is probably bigger than the market for old fuddy duddies who need manual controls, lol.
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Old 07-24-2012   #73
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Originally Posted by bugmenot View Post
I wonder why Sony, which is the most successful APS-C mirrorless producer to date. Was not mentioned alongside the other four manufacturers you named above.
Obviously I'm part of the global anti-Sony conspiracy/omerta/jihad. </sarcasm>
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Old 07-24-2012   #74
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Originally Posted by CK Dexter Haven View Post
...
• No controls for aperture/shutter speed. From a video i saw, it seems you need to access a menu to change these parameters, as if you're changing ISO. That is a major dealbreaker for me. Unless they have a screen that remains on while the camera's operating, that has a simple finger swipe gesture to change time and aperture, without pushing a button to access them.
Can you provide a link to that video? Overall, I have found this a poor offering from Canon and having to change shutter speed AND aperture opening as you've described is a complete non-starter.
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Old 07-24-2012   #75
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I find it incredibly interesting that they didn't include a built-in flash. If this is marketed at point-and-shooters looking for an upgrade, they're missing a key component. My mom would run screaming from a camera that she had to actually put a shoe-mounted flash on. She can barely work her 6-year-old CoolPix. Let alone something like this with a lens and a flash and all that touch-screen crap. She'd be so buried in menus and settings that she'd never get out and the camera would just end up in the pool. Not to mention the size. You take a T4i with an 18-55 kit lens and you've got a fairly small package. Pop-up flash included. Take this EOS-M (stupid name) and add an 18-55 lens and a shoe-mount flash and you've got something easily larger and more cumbersome than any of the Rebel lineup.

Canon has clearly thrown together something as small as an S100 with a big, bright touch screen and they've given no real thought to who this thing is marketed to and real-world experience. In my opinion, it's a foolish entry into the Mirrorless world. It's essentially a Panasonic GF5 with a bigger sensor and no flash. It's CERTAINLY NOT comparable to the NEX lineup or the offerings from Fuji.

It's just a stupid, gimmicky, little toy that will create buzz for a bit and then be upgraded every year for the next 5 years until they come out with the next thing. I was really expecting a G1X with interchangeable lenses and a decent VF or at the very least, the option for one. Shame...
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Old 07-24-2012   #76
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thanks...i'll do some research...
To be honest, I thought Contax was resurrected without my knowledge and made a new T point-and-shoot
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Old 07-24-2012   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matthewm View Post
I find it incredibly interesting that they didn't include a built-in flash. If this is marketed at point-and-shooters looking for an upgrade, they're missing a key component. My mom would run screaming from a camera that she had to actually put a shoe-mounted flash on. She can barely work her 6-year-old CoolPix.
The difference with the Coolpix is that, IF the EOS-M has the same IQ as the Rebel T4i/650D, then it will make the flash requirement not so much. Maybe your mom should just have to get used to not have a flash and still be able to take picture in low light :-)

BTW I tend to be more interested in the small 90EX flash they will release with it. If it does work as a master controller on my 5DMkII for the 550EX, I'll buy it.
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Old 07-24-2012   #78
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Can you provide a link to that video? Overall, I have found this a poor offering from Canon and having to change shutter speed AND aperture opening as you've described is a complete non-starter.
I have had the same feeling. The lack of control for aperture / speed through a knob is a bit of a non starter.
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Old 07-24-2012   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hub View Post
The difference with the Coolpix is that, IF the EOS-M has the same IQ as the Rebel T4i/650D, then it will make the flash requirement not so much. Maybe your mom should just have to get used to not have a flash and still be able to take picture in low light :-)

BTW I tend to be more interested in the small 90EX flash they will release with it. If it does work as a master controller on my 5DMkII for the 550EX, I'll buy it.
My mom using a camera in low light without a flash? LOL! I don't know if she'd be able to see what was in focus, let alone where the shutter button was. HAHAHA!

I do like the looks of that little flash. I was thinking it might be fun to have for my 5D/40 combo or my GRDIII.
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Old 07-25-2012   #80
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Can you spot the stupid Ken Rockwell claim?

Canon EOS M
1.6x, 18 MP Mirrorless: $800, October:
The world's first serious mirrorless camera.
© 2012 KenRockwell.com. All rights reserved.


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