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CSC : Digital Compact System Cameras - This new category of digital Compact System Cameras with interchangeable lenses was mislabeled for a time as "Mirrorless Cameras" by those forgetting about "Mirrorless" Rangefinder cameras.  Such confusion is easily understandable, since interchangeable rangefinder cameras were only recently introduced in 1932.  hmm.    CSC or Compact System Camera is probably the best category description to date, although I am fond of the old RFF desigation of  CEVIL  indicating Compact Electronic Viewfidner Interchangeable Lens.   This forum is here at RFF because via adapters these cameras offer an inexpensive way to use rangefinder lenses on digital cameras -- in addition of just about every 35mm SLR lens you can think of.  All  offer the photo enthusiast an incredible array of adopted lenses which was not possible before these new digital formats.   This group continues to grow in popularity and new camera models! 

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New Mirrorless Market Share "surprises" on the way..
Old 06-15-2012   #1
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New Mirrorless Market Share "surprises" on the way..



This chart shows the interchangeable lens camera sales in the last quarter of 2011, from CIPA. The dark blue ones are the mirrorless and the light blue for the DSLRs.

According to CIPA the mirrorless interchangeable camera sales is expected to reach 5 million units this year, more than two times for the year 2010; a rapid growing market (actually the fastest growing branch in photographic industry.)

The trend in Japan has always been decisive for the rest of the countries, at least for being a reliable indicator for "what's going to happen two years from now". This trend is indicative for what's being cooked now.. Probably in two years we will observe the 50% share of the mirrorless all over the world.

I think we are going to see some very interesting cameras in the oncoming Photokina in September, especially some models to interest us rangefinder users. I will not be surprised if Canon and Nikon had decided to "break their silence" to get their share in this 50% market to reach some 5 million cameras this year.

FYI, 5 million was the total sales of interchangeable lens digital cameras in 1999..
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Old 06-15-2012   #2
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With figures like that obviously Canikon aren't going to be sitting on their hands for too much longer!

Bring it on!
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Old 06-15-2012   #3
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Nikon already released the V1, so it's only Canon left standing at the side line
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Old 06-15-2012   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockos View Post
Nikon already released the V1, so it's only Canon left standing at the side line


The V1's a toy IMO ... they'll need to do better than that!

I was asking the salesman at the shop where I got my OMD how the Nikon V1 was selling and he said it was slow!

I mentioned I thought it seemed like a handbag camera and he smiled and nodded.
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Old 06-15-2012   #5
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The V1's a toy IMO ... they'll need to do better than that!

I was asking the salesman at the shop where I got my OMD how the Nikon V1 was selling and he said it was slow!
Nikon 1 probably makes up a pretty significant part of the Japanese mirrorless sales, though. This is purely based on observing the cameras Japanese tourists carry. Japanese women seem to really like the Nikon J1, while the men are more in the traditional DSLR/bigger-sensor-mirrorless camp. Year or two and US/Europe should catch up.
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Old 06-15-2012   #6
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I'm using cameras made in the 1960s and 70s and having zero problems achieving high quality results from them. It's not the gear.
Who said it was?
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Old 06-15-2012   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clayne View Post
I'm using cameras made in the 1960s and 70s and having zero problems achieving high quality results from them. It's not the gear.

Bear in mind most of those cameras will survive another 40-50 years by delivering quality results, maybe thru some CLA.... however I wonder what will happen with our digitals.

(I'm serious, the services keep spares for them longest 10 years, voice of experience after writing off 150 professional recorders due to not available spares from a most prominent factory: Panasonic.)
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Old 06-15-2012   #8
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Originally Posted by BobYIL View Post
Bear in mind most of those cameras will survive another 40-50 years by delivering quality results, maybe thru some CLA.... however I wonder what will happen with our digitals.

(I'm serious, the services keep spares for them longest 10 years, voice of experience after writing off 150 professional recorders due to not available spares from a most prominent factory: Panasonic.)
A "film vs. digital" or "1960s cameras vs. new cameras" argument isn't exactly original around here.

The spare parts argument is getting tired. The problem is hardly limited to electronic gear, low-end gear, Japanese gear, or digital gear for that matter. Ask Leica about how they expect to replenish their supply of mechanical R6 shutter assemblies, for example.
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Old 06-15-2012   #9
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Originally Posted by rxmd View Post
A "film vs. digital" or "1960s cameras vs. new cameras" argument isn't exactly original around here.

The spare parts argument is getting tired. The problem is hardly limited to electronic gear, low-end gear, Japanese gear, or digital gear for that matter. Ask Leica about how they expect to replenish their supply of mechanical R6 shutter assemblies, for example.

The majority of the mechanical cameras are serviceable today. For such cameras one does not need factory authorized services and their service is not dependent on exclusively the parts supplied by the manufacturer. For example, any M body can be repaired –possibly- by over 30 technicians/services located in USA and Europe and I know that a large portion of them are not factory trained persons.. The same is true for the mechanical Nikons, Canons too.

Such services can replace the worn or broken parts easily, either with few NOS parts remained from the Jurassic era or most frequently salvaged from bodies dismantled to be used for spares. No M-Leica in their hands goes to trash no matter if it fell from the 8th floor down, they find many parts to reuse.

Such service and parts are generally for bodies sold in large quantities or those sold not much but sharing parts with the more popular ones.

The worst thing with digital: Service & Parts replacement require also sophisticated test/measuring devices. FYI, Nikon stopped sales of any digital parts to any service other than their own Authorized Service Stations. They use ONLY the parts supplied by the manufacturer. (BTW, did you see the desk and equipment of our beloved Youxin Ye for example? I can dismantle and put back my M-Leicas on a surface of two sq.ft with tools to not fill even a shoe box.)

As for the R6: Not a popular model but I am sure either in the States or in EU, especially in Germany there should be one or two technicians who can service it too.. Also there is no such rule that each and every camera will live on..
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Old 06-15-2012   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith View Post
The V1's a toy IMO ... they'll need to do better than that!

I was asking the salesman at the shop where I got my OMD how the Nikon V1 was selling and he said it was slow!

I mentioned I thought it seemed like a handbag camera and he smiled and nodded.
It's a price issue.

They are simply too expensive.

To tease sales from DSLR champs looking for a 2nd ILC camera, you need to price it like an accessory camera, not your "main" or "serious" camera.

So it has to be cheaper than a 5100 and a GF series. It is not, so it is not selling well.

The premium compact market for digital is not the same as it was for film. Film itself levelled the playing field, so the competition could be on size vs. features. That dynamic doesn't work on digital so premium priced compacts even with ILC's have trouble charging a "small tax".
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Old 06-15-2012   #11
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Japanese simply are smart. When I see Japanese tourists going through city, all the day, by all nice buildings and monuments, it's clear it takes to be extremely trained to lug DSLR kit around. Mirrorless take same pictures for less money and with less stress on skeleton.
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Old 06-15-2012   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith View Post
The V1's a toy IMO ... they'll need to do better than that!

I was asking the salesman at the shop where I got my OMD how the Nikon V1 was selling and he said it was slow!

I mentioned I thought it seemed like a handbag camera and he smiled and nodded.
Wait wait, V1 is a toy but OMD with M43 sensor is not?
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Old 06-15-2012   #13
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Wait wait, V1 is a toy but OMD with M43 sensor is not?
i toyed around with the V1... kind of liked it actually. a fast prime in my preferred focal length would have sealed the deal for me.
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Old 06-15-2012   #14
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I believe that in ten years DSLRs will be fully replaced by mirrorless systems. With the advances in EVFs, DSLRs have no advantage. The advantages of mirrorless, however, are well-known to rangefinder user's.
Before digital, there was no technical way to bridge the gap between SLRs and RFs. Mirrorless systems do exactly that.
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Old 06-15-2012   #15
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i toyed around with the V1... kind of liked it actually. a fast prime in my preferred focal length would have sealed the deal for me.
Yes, I think that if Nikon comes out with faster lenses for the V1, it will take off - great viewfinder, very fast focus, many handy features.
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Old 06-15-2012   #16
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Quote:
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Wait wait, V1 is a toy but OMD with M43 sensor is not?

I suppose if your talking full frame they are both toys in comparison. The asthetics of the Nikon is what makes it that way for me ... not it's performance!
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Old 06-15-2012   #17
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What makes the Nikon 1 a toy is two things:

- UI based on the idea that it is for compact camera upgraders. In that sense the OM-D is a real camera.

- Crop factor that makes using legacy glass all but pointless, makes DOF control much harder and brings a disadvantage in image quality compared to m4/3rds and APS-C

That's why I have a NEX and why I strongly dissuade young women to buy a Nikon 1, no matter how 'cute' it may be.
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Old 06-16-2012   #18
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Interesting, I knew the market was growing but I had no idea by how much!
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Old 06-16-2012   #19
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Quote:
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I'm using cameras made in the 1960s and 70s and having zero problems achieving high quality results from them. It's not the gear.
I presume those 'old' cameras are full-frame (35mm) or larger.... You should expect different results with small sensors. Whether or not you can get 'sharp' pictures from the small sensor digitals is one thing. Getting the specific kinds of results you want from them is another matter.

This is like telling the 8x10 shooter you get 'high quality results' from your Leica. So what.
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Old 06-16-2012   #20
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this thread is indicative of rff of late...everyone is trying to prove they have the biggest d..k..we gotta stop this fast or this place is going to hit dirt quick.
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Old 06-16-2012   #21
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I believe that in ten years DSLRs will be fully replaced by mirrorless systems.
Six years. Within three years DSLRs will be an "old people" thing, if they aren't already. The D5 will be the last Nikon pro DSLR with a pentaprism.
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You must be a true youngster.......
Old 06-16-2012   #22
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You must be a true youngster.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald_H View Post
why I strongly dissuade young women to buy a Nikon 1, no matter how 'cute' it may be.
Most men, shorty after puberty, or late teens have learned that trying to dissuade or persuade a woman to anything is a true waste of time. Spend that time more productively. Do something to benefit humanity. Convincing women to do or not do anything is counter productive in the most negative sense of the words.
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Old 06-25-2012   #23
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I don't really care what the fashion is, or who has the fastest growing market share. That's all BS. Make a better camera. I'll buy it.

We have a lot of really nice mirrorless cameras available now -- too bad none of 'em can track focus in 3 dimensions for beans.... Oh, except for that little Nikon of which you like to make fun. Still waiting for the good stuff.
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Old 06-25-2012   #24
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Quote:
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.....We have a lot of really nice mirrorless cameras available now -- too bad none of 'em can track focus in 3 dimensions for beans....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipfO_JE8EB4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlnzP...eature=related
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Old 06-25-2012   #25
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I - for the life of me, don't get "CEVIL" cameras. Entry-level DSLRs are a much better value. The viewfinder comes attached - not an expensive extra. Comes with a grip! Not a 3rd-party add-on. Neither are pocketable, and entry-level DSLRs like, say, a D5100 or a Canon Rebel cost less. Camera companies will market the hell out of them because they're cheaper to produce (presumably). Less (features/"camera") is more (price-wise and margin). A boom for the electronics manufacturers.

These cameras aren't "interesting" at all - except, perhaps, to the CFO of an electronics company.
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Old 06-25-2012   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobYIL View Post
Bear in mind most of those cameras will survive another 40-50 years by delivering quality results, maybe thru some CLA....
If there is anyone left offering a reliable service...


Quote:
Originally Posted by BobYIL View Post
however I wonder what will happen with our digitals.
Trash, move on to the next model.
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Old 06-25-2012   #27
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I - for the life of me, don't get "CEVIL" cameras. Entry-level DSLRs are a much better value. (...)
These cameras aren't "interesting" at all - except, perhaps, to the CFO of an electronics company.
I can use all sorts of manual lenses on my NEX and I have permanent live view through either LCD or EVF. The sensors (at least in the NEX) are high end APS-C. And all are much more compact than competing DSLRs.

I have a NEX-7 and wouldnt want a D300s or EOS 7D instead.

Of course, if you are going "kit zoom only" like many buyers and dont care for bulk, then an entry level DSLR is better value, yes.
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Old 06-25-2012   #28
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Originally Posted by NickTrop View Post
I - for the life of me, don't get "CEVIL" cameras. Entry-level DSLRs are a much better value. The viewfinder comes attached - not an expensive extra. Comes with a grip! Not a 3rd-party add-on. Neither are pocketable, and entry-level DSLRs like, say, a D5100 or a Canon Rebel cost less. Camera companies will market the hell out of them because they're cheaper to produce (presumably). Less (features/"camera") is more (price-wise and margin). A boom for the electronics manufacturers.

These cameras aren't "interesting" at all - except, perhaps, to the CFO of an electronics company.
I agree. I am not sure hard nose pros will ever shoot mirrorless cameras. I think they will always be a market for cameras like the D800.
I couldn't imaging a real pro showing up to an expensive wedding or huge event with a compact system camera.
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Old 06-25-2012   #29
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We have a lot of really nice mirrorless cameras available now -- too bad none of 'em can track focus in 3 dimensions for beans.... Oh, except for that little Nikon of which you like to make fun. Still waiting for the good stuff.

Well, with slow lenses and a small sensor (1/2 size of m43, 1/3 size of APS-C)... everything is almost always in focus. You are correct, the "tracking" performance is amazing

And I might add, at least the current gen, is no more pocketable than the small m43 cameras.
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Old 06-25-2012   #30
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I agree. I am not sure hard nose pros will ever shoot mirrorless cameras. I think they will always be a market for cameras like the D800.
I couldn't imaging a real pro showing up to an expensive wedding or huge event with a compact system camera.
I can't imagine a real photo journalist ever using anything but a Leica M camera either.
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Old 06-25-2012   #31
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^---- Bwahahaha.

Bill Allard and David Alan Harvey have been making extensive use of the GF1 for probably couple of years now. Many others are also using GF1's, X-100s, etc. Apparently these National Geographic and Magnum photographers are not "hard-nosed pros." Comments like that will look so quaint three years from now.
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Old 06-25-2012   #32
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I can't imagine a real photo journalist ever using anything but a Leica M camera either.
LOL. You got me there. Another down side to the compacts right now is high end glass. Most all of Olympus m4/3rd lenses are kit quality and a far cry from Carl Zeiss lenses.
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Old 06-25-2012   #33
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I agree. I am not sure hard nose pros will ever shoot mirrorless cameras. I think they will always be a market for cameras like the D800.
I couldn't imaging a real pro showing up to an expensive wedding or huge event with a compact system camera.

But if they say, like all jerk off artists: this is the best and newest camera ever made. They will get the job. And soon we will be done with DSLRs: finally.
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Old 06-25-2012   #34
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Most all of Olympus m4/3rd lenses are kit quality...
They may not be up to Zeiss or Leica standards (or pricing!), but I think most here would disagree with the first part of your statement. Have you ever used the following:

Panny 7-14
Olympus 12mm/2
Voightlander 17.5mm/0.95
Panny 20mm/1.7
Panny/Leica 25mm/1.4
Voightlander 25mm/0.95
Olympus 45/1.8

Most of the above can be used wide open while remaining very sharp. And both the soon-to-be released Olympus 75/1.8 and Panny 12-35mm/2.8 (constant aperture) are reported to be of very good quality.

If you call those kit lens quality I'd like to hear what kit you are using!
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Old 06-25-2012   #35
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The Nikon V1 is an excellent camera - given that 99.99% of photos taken with even 'enthusiast' cameras are never going to be printed, much less large, its small sensor performs quite well. Good VF, fast AF. There are compromises at high-ISO compared to m43/APS/35, but if you play to the camera's strengths (ie daylight) then that's less relevant.

If the 10mm were f/2 (f/1.4 is probably stretching things), I think it would get a lot of love from street/doc/etc. shooters. Tiny body, v. good sensor, 28mm f/2? SOLD
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Old 06-25-2012   #36
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I - for the life of me, don't get "CEVIL" cameras. Entry-level DSLRs are a much better value. The viewfinder comes attached - not an expensive extra. Comes with a grip! Not a 3rd-party add-on. Neither are pocketable, and entry-level DSLRs like, say, a D5100 or a Canon Rebel cost less. Camera companies will market the hell out of them because they're cheaper to produce (presumably). Less (features/"camera") is more (price-wise and margin). A boom for the electronics manufacturers.

These cameras aren't "interesting" at all - except, perhaps, to the CFO of an electronics company.
I'm not sure how to detach the EVF from my OM-D.

I've spent time with the crop-sensor SLR bodies. The viewfinders are tiny and dark compared to the OM-D/NEX-7 or even the Fujis.
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Old 06-25-2012   #37
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The Leica Summilux 25mm 1.4 DG is a super lens. I use it on the GF1. Great fast prime lens for the m4/3 cameras.
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Old 06-25-2012   #38
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LOL. You got me there. Another down side to the compacts right now is high end glass. Most all of Olympus m4/3rd lenses are kit quality and a far cry from Carl Zeiss lenses.
Then get some Zeiss glass and put it on the OM-D or other m4/3 body.
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Old 07-06-2012   #39
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I'm using cameras made in the 1960s and 70s and having zero problems achieving high quality results from them. It's not the gear.
Of course, you've got a bigger "sensor" on those cameras. ;-)

I bought some older cameras, and I'm surprised at how well most of them work. One camera in particular has been in our family for about 40 years and I think it's working fine, once I fixed the light leaks. Hmm, I need to finish running another roll through it....

Meanwhile, my first digital camera died a long time ago. When these electronics go out, it might be possible to fix by swapping circuit boards in a similar way mechanical parts were swapped on old cameras, but I dunno. In my case, a 3mp camera is not worth repairing. :-) Maybe with current cameras they will be worth saving, but will they be repaired?

As for entry-level DSLRs being better, that's a personal opinion. If you prefer a DSLR, by all means, get one! I really enjoy the smaller, lighter camera. I only got a DSLR because I wanted the higher quality of a larger sensor. I'll suffer some compromises to reduce the weight. And I can stick my camera into a pocket.... a big pocket, but yeah.
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Old 07-06-2012   #40
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I got rid of my DSLR after I bought my X-Pro1. It was clear to me after one afternoon of shooting the X-Pro1 that I'd never use my 20D again. I never used it much anyway. I see myself using the X-Pro1 a lot more. In fact, in one month, I'm sure I've used it more than I used my 20D in a year.
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