Go Back   Rangefinderforum.com > Non Rangefinder Cameras > CSC : Digital Compact System Cameras -

CSC : Digital Compact System Cameras - This new category of digital Compact System Cameras with interchangeable lenses was mislabeled for a time as "Mirrorless Cameras" by those forgetting about "Mirrorless" Rangefinder cameras.  Such confusion is easily understandable, since interchangeable rangefinder cameras were only recently introduced in 1932.  hmm.    CSC or Compact System Camera is probably the best category description to date, although I am fond of the old RFF desigation of  CEVIL  indicating Compact Electronic Viewfidner Interchangeable Lens.   This forum is here at RFF because via adapters these cameras offer an inexpensive way to use rangefinder lenses on digital cameras -- in addition of just about every 35mm SLR lens you can think of.  All  offer the photo enthusiast an incredible array of adopted lenses which was not possible before these new digital formats.   This group continues to grow in popularity and new camera models! 

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes

New Mirrorless Market Share "surprises" on the way..
Old 06-15-2012   #1
BobYIL
Registered User
 
BobYIL's Avatar
 
BobYIL is offline
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,278
New Mirrorless Market Share "surprises" on the way..



This chart shows the interchangeable lens camera sales in the last quarter of 2011, from CIPA. The dark blue ones are the mirrorless and the light blue for the DSLRs.

According to CIPA the mirrorless interchangeable camera sales is expected to reach 5 million units this year, more than two times for the year 2010; a rapid growing market (actually the fastest growing branch in photographic industry.)

The trend in Japan has always been decisive for the rest of the countries, at least for being a reliable indicator for "what's going to happen two years from now". This trend is indicative for what's being cooked now.. Probably in two years we will observe the 50% share of the mirrorless all over the world.

I think we are going to see some very interesting cameras in the oncoming Photokina in September, especially some models to interest us rangefinder users. I will not be surprised if Canon and Nikon had decided to "break their silence" to get their share in this 50% market to reach some 5 million cameras this year.

FYI, 5 million was the total sales of interchangeable lens digital cameras in 1999..
  Reply With Quote

Old 06-15-2012   #2
Keith
On leave from Gallifrey
 
Keith's Avatar
 
Keith is offline
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 17,149
With figures like that obviously Canikon aren't going to be sitting on their hands for too much longer!

Bring it on!
__________________
---------------------------
zenfolio

flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 06-15-2012   #3
Jockos
Registered User
 
Jockos's Avatar
 
Jockos is offline
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Sweden
Age: 26
Posts: 526
Nikon already released the V1, so it's only Canon left standing at the side line
  Reply With Quote

Old 06-15-2012   #4
Keith
On leave from Gallifrey
 
Keith's Avatar
 
Keith is offline
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 17,149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockos View Post
Nikon already released the V1, so it's only Canon left standing at the side line


The V1's a toy IMO ... they'll need to do better than that!

I was asking the salesman at the shop where I got my OMD how the Nikon V1 was selling and he said it was slow!

I mentioned I thought it seemed like a handbag camera and he smiled and nodded.
__________________
---------------------------
zenfolio

flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 06-15-2012   #5
Lss
Registered User
 
Lss is offline
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith View Post
The V1's a toy IMO ... they'll need to do better than that!

I was asking the salesman at the shop where I got my OMD how the Nikon V1 was selling and he said it was slow!
Nikon 1 probably makes up a pretty significant part of the Japanese mirrorless sales, though. This is purely based on observing the cameras Japanese tourists carry. Japanese women seem to really like the Nikon J1, while the men are more in the traditional DSLR/bigger-sensor-mirrorless camp. Year or two and US/Europe should catch up.
__________________
Lasse
  Reply With Quote

Old 06-15-2012   #6
jsrockit
Moderator
 
jsrockit's Avatar
 
jsrockit is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: NYC
Age: 41
Posts: 14,361
Quote:
Originally Posted by clayne View Post
I'm using cameras made in the 1960s and 70s and having zero problems achieving high quality results from them. It's not the gear.
Who said it was?
  Reply With Quote

Old 06-15-2012   #7
BobYIL
Registered User
 
BobYIL's Avatar
 
BobYIL is offline
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,278
Quote:
Originally Posted by clayne View Post
I'm using cameras made in the 1960s and 70s and having zero problems achieving high quality results from them. It's not the gear.

Bear in mind most of those cameras will survive another 40-50 years by delivering quality results, maybe thru some CLA.... however I wonder what will happen with our digitals.

(I'm serious, the services keep spares for them longest 10 years, voice of experience after writing off 150 professional recorders due to not available spares from a most prominent factory: Panasonic.)
  Reply With Quote

Old 06-15-2012   #8
rxmd
May contain traces of nut
 
rxmd's Avatar
 
rxmd is offline
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Kyrgyzstan
Posts: 5,826
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobYIL View Post
Bear in mind most of those cameras will survive another 40-50 years by delivering quality results, maybe thru some CLA.... however I wonder what will happen with our digitals.

(I'm serious, the services keep spares for them longest 10 years, voice of experience after writing off 150 professional recorders due to not available spares from a most prominent factory: Panasonic.)
A "film vs. digital" or "1960s cameras vs. new cameras" argument isn't exactly original around here.

The spare parts argument is getting tired. The problem is hardly limited to electronic gear, low-end gear, Japanese gear, or digital gear for that matter. Ask Leica about how they expect to replenish their supply of mechanical R6 shutter assemblies, for example.
__________________
Bing! You're hypnotized!
  Reply With Quote

Old 06-15-2012   #9
BobYIL
Registered User
 
BobYIL's Avatar
 
BobYIL is offline
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,278
Quote:
Originally Posted by rxmd View Post
A "film vs. digital" or "1960s cameras vs. new cameras" argument isn't exactly original around here.

The spare parts argument is getting tired. The problem is hardly limited to electronic gear, low-end gear, Japanese gear, or digital gear for that matter. Ask Leica about how they expect to replenish their supply of mechanical R6 shutter assemblies, for example.

The majority of the mechanical cameras are serviceable today. For such cameras one does not need factory authorized services and their service is not dependent on exclusively the parts supplied by the manufacturer. For example, any M body can be repaired –possibly- by over 30 technicians/services located in USA and Europe and I know that a large portion of them are not factory trained persons.. The same is true for the mechanical Nikons, Canons too.

Such services can replace the worn or broken parts easily, either with few NOS parts remained from the Jurassic era or most frequently salvaged from bodies dismantled to be used for spares. No M-Leica in their hands goes to trash no matter if it fell from the 8th floor down, they find many parts to reuse.

Such service and parts are generally for bodies sold in large quantities or those sold not much but sharing parts with the more popular ones.

The worst thing with digital: Service & Parts replacement require also sophisticated test/measuring devices. FYI, Nikon stopped sales of any digital parts to any service other than their own Authorized Service Stations. They use ONLY the parts supplied by the manufacturer. (BTW, did you see the desk and equipment of our beloved Youxin Ye for example? I can dismantle and put back my M-Leicas on a surface of two sq.ft with tools to not fill even a shoe box.)

As for the R6: Not a popular model but I am sure either in the States or in EU, especially in Germany there should be one or two technicians who can service it too.. Also there is no such rule that each and every camera will live on..
  Reply With Quote

Old 06-15-2012   #10
Aristophanes
Registered User
 
Aristophanes is offline
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith View Post
The V1's a toy IMO ... they'll need to do better than that!

I was asking the salesman at the shop where I got my OMD how the Nikon V1 was selling and he said it was slow!

I mentioned I thought it seemed like a handbag camera and he smiled and nodded.
It's a price issue.

They are simply too expensive.

To tease sales from DSLR champs looking for a 2nd ILC camera, you need to price it like an accessory camera, not your "main" or "serious" camera.

So it has to be cheaper than a 5100 and a GF series. It is not, so it is not selling well.

The premium compact market for digital is not the same as it was for film. Film itself levelled the playing field, so the competition could be on size vs. features. That dynamic doesn't work on digital so premium priced compacts even with ILC's have trouble charging a "small tax".
  Reply With Quote

Old 06-15-2012   #11
btgc
Registered User
 
btgc's Avatar
 
btgc is offline
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,355
Japanese simply are smart. When I see Japanese tourists going through city, all the day, by all nice buildings and monuments, it's clear it takes to be extremely trained to lug DSLR kit around. Mirrorless take same pictures for less money and with less stress on skeleton.
__________________
MyFlickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 06-15-2012   #12
Jockos
Registered User
 
Jockos's Avatar
 
Jockos is offline
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Sweden
Age: 26
Posts: 526
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith View Post
The V1's a toy IMO ... they'll need to do better than that!

I was asking the salesman at the shop where I got my OMD how the Nikon V1 was selling and he said it was slow!

I mentioned I thought it seemed like a handbag camera and he smiled and nodded.
Wait wait, V1 is a toy but OMD with M43 sensor is not?
  Reply With Quote

Old 06-15-2012   #13
emraphoto
Registered User
 
emraphoto's Avatar
 
emraphoto is offline
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockos View Post
Wait wait, V1 is a toy but OMD with M43 sensor is not?
i toyed around with the V1... kind of liked it actually. a fast prime in my preferred focal length would have sealed the deal for me.
__________________
www.jdensky.com
twitter - @eastofadelaide
  Reply With Quote

Old 06-15-2012   #14
Peter^
Registered User
 
Peter^'s Avatar
 
Peter^ is offline
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 266
I believe that in ten years DSLRs will be fully replaced by mirrorless systems. With the advances in EVFs, DSLRs have no advantage. The advantages of mirrorless, however, are well-known to rangefinder user's.
Before digital, there was no technical way to bridge the gap between SLRs and RFs. Mirrorless systems do exactly that.
__________________
- Peter
----------------
Zeiss Ikon, Olympus OM-1n, Konica C35, NEX-7

See my pictures at:
http://peter.andrews.ipernity.com

“Your first 10,000 photographs are your worst.” - Henri Cartier-Bresson
  Reply With Quote

Old 06-15-2012   #15
tomtofa
Registered User
 
tomtofa's Avatar
 
tomtofa is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 978
Quote:
Originally Posted by emraphoto View Post
i toyed around with the V1... kind of liked it actually. a fast prime in my preferred focal length would have sealed the deal for me.
Yes, I think that if Nikon comes out with faster lenses for the V1, it will take off - great viewfinder, very fast focus, many handy features.
  Reply With Quote

Old 06-15-2012   #16
Keith
On leave from Gallifrey
 
Keith's Avatar
 
Keith is offline
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 17,149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockos View Post
Wait wait, V1 is a toy but OMD with M43 sensor is not?

I suppose if your talking full frame they are both toys in comparison. The asthetics of the Nikon is what makes it that way for me ... not it's performance!
__________________
---------------------------
zenfolio

flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 06-15-2012   #17
Ronald_H
Don't call me Ron
 
Ronald_H's Avatar
 
Ronald_H is offline
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Helmond, The Netherlands
Age: 43
Posts: 1,700
What makes the Nikon 1 a toy is two things:

- UI based on the idea that it is for compact camera upgraders. In that sense the OM-D is a real camera.

- Crop factor that makes using legacy glass all but pointless, makes DOF control much harder and brings a disadvantage in image quality compared to m4/3rds and APS-C

That's why I have a NEX and why I strongly dissuade young women to buy a Nikon 1, no matter how 'cute' it may be.
__________________
"The only substitute for Tri-X is more Tri-X"

My Flickr

My regular website: www.lookupinwonder.nl
  Reply With Quote

Old 06-16-2012   #18
pdexposures
Registered User
 
pdexposures's Avatar
 
pdexposures is offline
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: PDX
Posts: 220
Interesting, I knew the market was growing but I had no idea by how much!
__________________
The Kit:

Leica M6- 35mm Cron V3 / 50mm Cron V3 / 90mm Elmar-C
Hasselblad 500cm - 80mm Planar
Nikon FM3a - 50mm 1.4 Nikkor


www.pdexposures.com <- Film camera reviews, podcast, flim news and general tom foolery
  Reply With Quote

Old 06-16-2012   #19
CK Dexter Haven
Registered User
 
CK Dexter Haven is offline
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,088
Quote:
Originally Posted by clayne View Post
I'm using cameras made in the 1960s and 70s and having zero problems achieving high quality results from them. It's not the gear.
I presume those 'old' cameras are full-frame (35mm) or larger.... You should expect different results with small sensors. Whether or not you can get 'sharp' pictures from the small sensor digitals is one thing. Getting the specific kinds of results you want from them is another matter.

This is like telling the 8x10 shooter you get 'high quality results' from your Leica. So what.
  Reply With Quote

Old 06-16-2012   #20
back alley
just joe
 
back alley's Avatar
 
back alley is offline
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: searching for the perfect bag!
Posts: 37,849
this thread is indicative of rff of late...everyone is trying to prove they have the biggest d..k..we gotta stop this fast or this place is going to hit dirt quick.
__________________
i don't know what art is...but i know what i like.


heart soul & a camera
  Reply With Quote

Old 06-16-2012   #21
semilog
curmudgeonly optimist
 
semilog's Avatar
 
semilog is offline
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,719
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter^ View Post
I believe that in ten years DSLRs will be fully replaced by mirrorless systems.
Six years. Within three years DSLRs will be an "old people" thing, if they aren't already. The D5 will be the last Nikon pro DSLR with a pentaprism.
__________________
There are two kinds of photographers:
those who are interested in what a particular camera can't do,
and those who are interested in what it can do.

semilog.smugmug.com | flickr.com/photos/semilog/
  Reply With Quote

You must be a true youngster.......
Old 06-16-2012   #22
kuzano
Registered User
 
kuzano is offline
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,749
You must be a true youngster.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald_H View Post
why I strongly dissuade young women to buy a Nikon 1, no matter how 'cute' it may be.
Most men, shorty after puberty, or late teens have learned that trying to dissuade or persuade a woman to anything is a true waste of time. Spend that time more productively. Do something to benefit humanity. Convincing women to do or not do anything is counter productive in the most negative sense of the words.
  Reply With Quote

Old 06-25-2012   #23
MaxElmar
Registered User
 
MaxElmar's Avatar
 
MaxElmar is offline
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 423
I don't really care what the fashion is, or who has the fastest growing market share. That's all BS. Make a better camera. I'll buy it.

We have a lot of really nice mirrorless cameras available now -- too bad none of 'em can track focus in 3 dimensions for beans.... Oh, except for that little Nikon of which you like to make fun. Still waiting for the good stuff.
__________________
Chris L.

Still Photographically Uncool
  Reply With Quote

Old 06-25-2012   #24
BobYIL
Registered User
 
BobYIL's Avatar
 
BobYIL is offline
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,278
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxElmar View Post
.....We have a lot of really nice mirrorless cameras available now -- too bad none of 'em can track focus in 3 dimensions for beans....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipfO_JE8EB4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlnzP...eature=related
  Reply With Quote

Old 06-25-2012   #25
NickTrop
Registered User
 
NickTrop's Avatar
 
NickTrop is offline
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,586
I - for the life of me, don't get "CEVIL" cameras. Entry-level DSLRs are a much better value. The viewfinder comes attached - not an expensive extra. Comes with a grip! Not a 3rd-party add-on. Neither are pocketable, and entry-level DSLRs like, say, a D5100 or a Canon Rebel cost less. Camera companies will market the hell out of them because they're cheaper to produce (presumably). Less (features/"camera") is more (price-wise and margin). A boom for the electronics manufacturers.

These cameras aren't "interesting" at all - except, perhaps, to the CFO of an electronics company.
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 14:49.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.