Kiev 4 and Jupiter 12 - why don't they fit?

[GWT]

A couple of weeks ago I picked up a Jupiter 12 lens for that well known auction site, it was a great price and was in good condition.

Today I tried it out for the first time and I ran into a problem, although the lens is a contax mount the deep rear element seems to be touching the shutter when I try to focus much past 1 meter.

I was under the impression that the Jupiter 12 would fit the Kiev - What's gone wrong, and Ideas?

[oftheherd]

I have heard of problems with Contax models and the Jupiter 12, but not with the Kiev. No doubt somebody here will come up with a good answer, but in the meantime, you might try the Kiev Survival Site (goodle it, there has been a new host for the last three or four years) and see if anything is mentioned there.

[rxmd]

Originally Posted by GWT

Today I tried it out for the first time and I ran into a problem, although the lens is a contax mount the deep rear element seems to be touching the shutter when I try to focus much past 1 meter.

How are you determining that it touches the shutter?

[GWT]

Originally Posted by rxmd

How are you determining that it touches the shutter?

To be fair I haven't any proof that it is, it's just there is resistance when I try to focus past 1 meter or so. I have a film in the Kiev so I haven't been able to set the shutter to B and check.

The rear element is in great shape and at this time is showing no signs of damage, I haven't forced the focus in case it wrecks both the element and shutter.

Do you think there might be another reason for the focal resistance?

[Nomad Z]

You could try opening the shutter on B and see if the resistance is still there.

[GWT]

Originally Posted by Nomad Z

You could try opening the shutter on B and see if the resistance is still there.

Good plan.

[GWT]

I've tried opening the shutter on B and the resistance is still there. I'm now thinking that the range finder coupling isn't working with the lens - but why?

The focus wheel on top doesn't move properly and if i try to focus using the lens the wheel on top doesn't move at all.

[Coldkennels]

Chances are that you're right, and the lens isn't coupling with the rangefinder connections in the lens throat.

I had exactly the same problem when I bought mine. Turned out some idiot repairman who knew nothing about Contax or Kiev lenses had put it back together badly. Check the spring collar behind the rear element; it should move up and down freely and not be able to rotate. Also, check that a screw is visible in both of the vertical slots in the collar.

On my lens, the repairman had tightened up the screws which hold it in place so much that they weren't sticking out enough to keep the collar in the right position. As such, the collar had rotated out of position, meaning the RF cams weren't in the right location.

[xayraa33]

I know it is not suppose to happen that way and it is probably only in my experience but for some reason the external bayonet mount lenses of the Kiev camera give me problems when mounting on bodies when there is a large discrepancy in the year of manufacture between lens and body.

For example a 1962 J-9 would not mount on a 1982 Kiev 4 AM but mounted fine on a 1965 Kiev 4a and a very late newish black J-12 would not mount on a 1952 Kiev 2 but mounts fine on a Kiev 4 from 1972.

[GWT]

Originally Posted by Coldkennels

Chances are that you're right, and the lens isn't coupling with the rangefinder connections in the lens throat.

I had exactly the same problem when I bought mine. Turned out some idiot repairman who knew nothing about Contax or Kiev lenses had put it back together badly. Check the spring collar behind the rear element; it should move up and down freely and not be able to rotate. Also, check that a screw is visible in both of the vertical slots in the collar.

On my lens, the repairman had tightened up the screws which hold it in place so much that they weren't sticking out enough to keep the collar in the right position. As such, the collar had rotated out of position, meaning the RF cams weren't in the right location.

You were spot on!

I've loosened off the screws slightly, they had been wound up tight. The focus now has a complete range of motion but still is a little tight - should I loosen the screws off a little more?

[Coldkennels]

You don't want the screws so loose they fall out or stick out past the collar; you just want them to hold the collar in place and do no more. Any extra tightness will probably be a lubricant problem. How does the focusing helical feel when the lens is off the camera? Also, how smoothly does the spring collar move up and down? That's another potential place for added friction and resistance.

(Just out of interest, who did you buy the lens off on the auction site? I noticed you're from the UK and wondered if it was the same guy I got mine from. At any rate, I'd consider emailing the seller and telling him. In my case, he was quite thankful, and I ended up having an hour long phone call about photography and gear with him. He even gave me my money back and let me keep the lens for the trouble. Nice bloke let down by a bad repairman.)

[GWT]

Sadly it worked for a moment but is now still sticking. The collar moves up and down but I wouldn't say completely freely, it slightly rocks.

Camera wise I have a Jupiter 8 lens which came with it, when thats on the focus is very smooth.

Yeah I picked it up from ebay, the chaps user name is 123jamesrussell.

[BobYIL]

First; focusing around 1m takes the lens AWAY from the focal plane, i.e. the shutter curtain, etc.. problem is not there.

Try your camera without the lens; your lens has nothing to do with focusing. The issue is in the body; after being sure about it talk to the seller..

[Coldkennels]

Originally Posted by GWT

Sadly it worked for a moment but is now still sticking. The collar moves up and down but I wouldn't say completely freely, it slightly rocks.

Camera wise I have a Jupiter 8 lens which came with it, when thats on the focus is very smooth.

Yeah I picked it up from ebay, the chaps user name is 123jamesrussell.

Okay, another thing to consider: there is one "tab" on the collar as part of the cam which is longer than the other two. That one should start around the infinity mark on the lens's focus scale and end at about 3.5m. That's how I knew mine was misaligned; it was in a different place, so trying to mount it caused the problems you're describing.

This is, of course, assuming that the focusing helical on the lens itself isn't what's causing the tightness.

I got mine from TPolony. Maybe they use the same repairman?

[GWT]

Originally Posted by BobYIL

First; focusing around 1m takes the lens AWAY from the focal plane, i.e. the shutter curtain, etc.. problem is not there.

Try your camera without the lens; your lens has nothing to do with focusing. The issue is in the body; after being sure about it talk to the seller..

Well I'm pretty sure it's not the camera in respect to the J8 lens I have works fine and the focus in very quick and smooth. The issues arise when I put the J12 lens on.

[GWT]

Originally Posted by Coldkennels

Okay, another thing to consider: there is one "tab" on the collar as part of the cam which is longer than the other two. That one should start around the infinity mark on the lens's focus scale and end at about 3.5m. That's how I knew mine was misaligned; it was in a different place, so trying to mount it caused the problems you're describing.

This is, of course, assuming that the focusing helical on the lens itself isn't what's causing the tightness.

I got mine from TPolony. Maybe they use the same repairman?

By the looks of things that long tab appears to be in the right place, looking at it from the side with the rear element facing up the right had edge of the long tab lines up with the infinity mark.

[GWT]

Well I think I've cracked it. The lens seems to have to be set to infinity before it's mounted and now seems to have the full range of motion but is still quite tight, so tight that when using the kiev's focusing wheel it will unscrew itself from the camera body. Any ideas what can be done about this?

[Crazy Fedya]

Try to put camera and lens at infinity, then mount the lens, then move focusing ring on the lens to the closest focusing point, and then back to infinity. There should be some kind of the click, when you would go back. After that it should focus normally.

[Coldkennels]

Also I would strongly recommend not using the focusing wheel with external bayonet lenses. It'll put a lot of strain on the mechanism. Focus them as you would a normal lens on a different camera; the outer bayonet mount should have disabled the infinity lock, so you won't have to worry about that.

Also, there should be a latch on the side of the lens that clips into the external bayonet and prevents the lens from detaching itself.... but the one on my J12 doesn't work either.

[David Hughes]

Hi,

I hope this doesn't sound rude but dare I ask if you have a manual for the camera?

Do a search on "kiev camera manual" and you'll get a wide choice. Most of them cover all models, meaning the 4 and 4A one covers the 2 etc.

Regards, David

PS Try:- http://www.russianplaza.com/Kiev%20man/kiev4man.htm

or else http://www.dvdtechcameras.com/manuals/cameras/k4/k4.htm

and, of course, http://www.butkus.org/chinon/russian.htm for a long list of ex USSR manuals.

[GWT]

Thanks guys for your help, it was human error not lens (at least that's what I hope) I should have done a quick google search and I would have found that my experience is not unique and has been flagged on this forum a few times before. But I have learnt a lot more about the lens, cheers for all your posts.

[Frontman]

You do have to set both the lens and the camera to infinity before mounting the lens. Also, the lens collars on some Jupiter 12 lenses may not be properly finished, which may allow the collar to rub against the body in certain positions. Don't ever mount a Jupiter 12 lens on a valuable camera like a Nikon SP, it can cause scratches on the front plate

[wolves3012]

Originally Posted by Crazy Fedya

Try to put camera and lens at infinity, then mount the lens, then move focusing ring on the lens to the closest focusing point, and then back to infinity. There should be some kind of the click, when you would go back. After that it should focus normally.

Pretty much exactly what you have to do. Failing to put camera and lens on infinity makes it likely the coupling won't engage, or may engage incorrectly.

[Joao]

Originally Posted by xayraa33

I know it is not suppose to happen that way and it is probably only in my experience but for some reason the external bayonet mount lenses of the Kiev camera give me problems when mounting on bodies when there is a large discrepancy in the year of manufacture between lens and body...
.

Same experience here, I have two Kiev bodies of different ages and their lenses J-8 and J-12 (also of different years) are not interchangeable as they are supposed to be...