M8 (and RD1) niche untouched

[noimmunity]

A fun time for all with all the new cameras coming out.

One thing I cannot help but notice, however, is the glaring lack of alternatives to the current queens/kings of the sub-$3000 dRF, the M8 and the R-D1.

For those who don't want to sell a kidney or the entirety of their lens collection just to own an M9, MM, or M10, yet want the purity of a mechanical rangefinder in a digital format, there is no other option.

It may never be actualized, but the market price segmentation is definitely leaving the door wide open for an update to the M8/R-D1 class.

In the meantime, both the M8 and the R-D1 continue to enjoy relevance. Plus, they can make really cool images

[jippiejee]

Funny, somehow I thought one of the new Leica announcements might have been a M8.3 with recent aps-c sensor. It would have made sense. Maybe the rumored M-light evil camera will be close to that. "Various M-derived products" is what Thorsten Overgaard mentioned in his latest article, and I can't imagine something M8-like not to be one of those.

[jsrockit]

There was never a $3000 M8... it's only that way now because it's so damn old.

[Paul Luscher]

Originally Posted by jsrockit

There was never a $3000 M8... it's only that way now because it's so damn old.

Prezactly. from one who knows.

[noimmunity]

True. At the time of the their release, both the M8 and the R-D1 represented considerable R&D that had to be recuperated.

But nobody today is going to believe the argument that significant R&D costs could still be involved in the design and bringing to market of an updated APS-C model.

[noimmunity]

Originally Posted by jsrockit

There was never a $3000 M8... it's only that way now because it's so damn old.

In fact, there was.

Buying my M8 new, while it was still in production and before the release of the M9, I actually paid considerably LESS than US$3000.

I do have a sale receipt to prove it. But then again, there are those who don't believe the President of the United States was native-born even after he publicly disclosed his birth certificate XDDD!

[damien.murphy]

Would be nice to see a digital CL. M9 prices leave existing Leica film shooters open to a digital rangefinder with no product options from Leica. I applaud others who play the M8/ R-D1 roulette, but its not for me.

[kmallick]

Originally Posted by damien.murphy

Would be nice to see a digital CL. M9 prices leave existing Leica film shooters open to a digital rangefinder with no product options from Leica. I applaud others who play the M8/ R-D1 roulette, but its not for me.

or a digital CLE maybe?

doesn't SONY have some leftover know-how from the Minolta guys they took over to come up with a decent digital CLE? combine that with their full frame sensor and we are talking about some competition.

[tom.w.bn]

Originally Posted by damien.murphy

Would be nice to see a digital CL. M9 prices leave existing Leica film shooters open to a digital rangefinder with no product options from Leica. I applaud others who play the M8/ R-D1 roulette, but its not for me.

What M8 roulette? No problems with M8 since 2008. I have it because I'm a big rangefinder fan, so no XPro for me. I'm not a high iso freak so I get wonderful images from it.

[boomguy57]

I think that Fuji's two most recent offerings (X100 and XP1) are fine for people who are in that niche. The niche of those who can't/won't afford M9, M10, etc AND who aren't satisfied with the Fuji rangefinder-esque products is so small as to be--dare I say?--insignificant.

Sorry. There will be no digital CL/CLE either. I'm sorry to say but rangefinders aren't that practical for anyone to make, besides Leica.

[DRabbit]

Originally Posted by boomguy57

I think that Fuji's two most recent offerings (X100 and XP1) are fine for people who are in that niche. The niche of those who can't/won't afford M9, M10, etc AND who aren't satisfied with the Fuji rangefinder-esque products is so small as to be--dare I say?--insignificant.

Sorry. There will be no digital CL/CLE either. I'm sorry to say but rangefinders aren't that practical for anyone to make, besides Leica.

I disagree. The Fuji XPro1 would be a nice camera to have, but it can't replace my M8. And if my M8 dies tomorrow, I'm SOL. I would have no choice by to take the risk of buying used.

[boomguy57]

Originally Posted by DRabbit

I disagree. The Fuji XPro1 would be a nice camera to have, but it can't replace my M8. And if my M8 dies tomorrow, I'm SOL. I would have no choice by to take the risk of buying used.

Is that simply because you can't afford an M9, or is there some other reason that makes the M8 unique and better suited to your needs?

[damien.murphy]

Originally Posted by kmallick

or a digital CLE maybe?

Indeed

Originally Posted by tom.w.bn

What M8 roulette?

Have read too many user experiences with problems/ sensor replacements/etc, to consider it a risk-free purchase. That is roulette in my book - spin the wheel and take your chances.

Originally Posted by boomguy57

I'm sorry to say but rangefinders aren't that practical for anyone to make, besides Leica.

Didn't Leica have to pull the plug on the CL all those years ago because they were selling too well? Hardly seems like there's no market for a digital version more keenly priced than an M9, especially considering all the M-Mount film users out there who right now are priced out of the digital rangefinder game..

[DRabbit]

Originally Posted by boomguy57

Is that simply because you can't afford an M9, or is there some other reason that makes the M8 unique and better suited to your needs?

Both. Primarily it's price, first and foremost. I do prefer the output of the M8 a bit better, plus its 1/8000 max shutter speed. The 1.3x crop factor doesn't bother me at all and I sometimes wish for Leica to release a digital CL that's a 1.3 or 1.5 crop and CHEAPER. I'm dreaming, I know.

However, regardless, there is really no "affordable" option for a digital rangefinder, unless you're willing to buy used. I find that unfortunate. My daughter's best friend, who is quite serious about photography, LOVES shooting with a rangefinder, but no way she can afford one in the digital realm.

[noimmunity]

Originally Posted by DRabbit

I disagree. The Fuji XPro1 would be a nice camera to have, but it can't replace my M8. And if my M8 dies tomorrow, I'm SOL. I would have no choice by to take the risk of buying used.

I have both, and I agree (with your disagreement). The XP1 doesn't replace a camera with a combined mechanical VF/RF. They do make a sweet pair, however, that does things an M9 alone for instance couldn't do.

[kmallick]

Originally Posted by boomguy57

Sorry. There will be no digital CL/CLE either. I'm sorry to say but rangefinders aren't that practical for anyone to make, besides Leica.

I am a super happy owner of a M9. But I am guilty of daydreaming for more choices as much as any other rangefinder aficionado. I can also be tempted to be as much an armchair analyst. But everyone agrees that Leica needs some competition, be it from Epson, Cosina, Fuji or SONY.

[boomguy57]

Don't get me wrong, I'd love a digital RF. But the prices are way out of whack. Most consumers don't want manual cameras anymore, so it's not practical for a company to invest in the RF game at this point. To me that's just common sense.

[kmallick]

Originally Posted by boomguy57

Don't get me wrong, I'd love a digital RF. But the prices are way out of whack. Most consumers don't want manual cameras anymore, so it's not practical for a company to invest in the RF game at this point. To me that's just common sense.

You are absolutely correct. But many of us are stuck between accepting this as a fact and the steep price of a Leica digital M. Hence the daydreaming.

[boomguy57]

Originally Posted by kmallick

You are absolutely correct. But many of us are stuck between accepting this as a fact and the steep price of a Leica digital M. Hence the daydreaming.

But now there are alternatives in the form of Fuji's X100 and XP1. While not technically rangefinders, they provide--in my opinion--a very similar experience at a fraction of the cost. Better ISO performance, equal in IQ and resolution in my opinion (had to put that on before the Leica police get on me)...what's not to like?

[igi]

I still have to sell a kidney to get an M8.

[Keith]

I think it's the onslaught of new digitals that actually caused me to go and buy an RD-1 ... I could have made the stretch to an M9 and was very close to doing so but reneged at the last moment when a cheap Epson appeared in the classifieds.

In hindsight it's one of the smarter purchasing decisions I've made ... I think the RD-1 is a brilliant camera and anytime they want to up the megapixels with an upgraded sensor they can count me in! I'm fine with the crop factor.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by jsrockit

There was never a $3000 M8... it's only that way now because it's so damn old.

True ... when I bought my M8 new it cost me $6000 here in Oz! For that amount I can now get a used M9 and change.

[digitalintrigue]

An M8.3 would be nice, with an updated sensor, even at 1.3 crop.

Logically, it would have to be lower pixel count than the M9 and not exceed the M9's ISO performance level and that would mean a CCD, not CMOS.

This means it would have significantly lower performance than the X-Pro1.

More than likely it would cost significantly more, say perhaps $3k for the body.

Alternatively, when the M10 is announced, keep the M9 in the lineup as a lower priced body, although I doubt they could get it down to $3k.

However since they just announced the M9-M at $8k, they wouldn't make very many 'first on the block' M9-M buyers happy by dropping the price a couple of months after it ships, so this is highly unlikely, IMHO. Unless they drop the price before it actually ships, which I also find highly unlikely.

Thoughts?

[DRabbit]

M8.3 -- I'd be happy at $3500.
Keep the same type of sensor even, just increase resolution. Fix some of the bugs/issues. Update firmware to allow manual lens selection (like M9). Figure out a way to keep 1/8000 max shutter speed (they should do that for the M10 too!)

M9 -- $4500-$5000

MM -- SAME PRICE as M9!

M10 -- $6500

Then release more ridiculous special limited editions to make up for losses above. LOL!


Of course, it won't happen. And I fear we're likely to see the M10 at $9995-$11995 on release.

[noimmunity]

Originally Posted by DRabbit

M8.3 -- I'd be happy at $3500.
Keep the same type of sensor even, just increase resolution. Fix some of the bugs/issues. Update firmware to allow manual lens selection (like M9). Figure out a way to keep 1/8000 max shutter speed (they should do that for the M10 too!).

Near the end of 2008 and the beginning of 2009 near the end of the M8s production cycle, when I and many others here purchased M8s from the UK, the pound had dipped to historically low rates, a rebate of £500+ was being offered, and sales to destinations outside the EU were VAT-free. All of this enabled quite a few people to buy new M8s with 2 year passport warranty for less than US$3000.

Even at today's exchange rates, the value would still be under US$3500.

Fast forward to today and I'm not talking about a FF replacement, but rather an update to a crop-factor model that would basically bring better high-ISO, user-definable lens-code menu, perhaps a better battery and LCD screen, and the framelines of the M8.2 into a new APS-H or APS-C M8.3 model.