Leica M3 question for the experts

[Timmyjoe]

I was just ready to buy an M3 from the big auction site, (had done all my research and thought I had found a good one) when suddenly I noticed something. The seller is claiming the camera is a late serial number #1041XXX and a single stroke, which is what I was looking for. But then I noticed these two screws:



I had not seen them on other later model M3 cameras like this one below:



Upon further study, I found the screws on older M3 models, some of the original M3's, all with serial numbers below #781XXX, as seen below:





So it now appears to me that someone put a higher serial number cover on an earlier Leica M3. Can anyone shed some light on this?

Thanks for any and all information.
__________________
Best,
-Tim

[CNNY]

Your analysis may be correct. I don't know when they started dropping the screws, but the screws on that body don't look original to me. They are clearly fatter (like the RF cover screw in the center) than the ones that are on my early M3. The original screws are countersunk, while these are not. That could indicate that someone DIYd the holes.
It does have the later lugs though, so there may not be any fraud going on. Perhaps it is a transition body, and a repair person put different screws back.

[buzzardkid]

Originally Posted by CNNY

Your analysis may be correct. I don't know when they started dropping the screws, but the screws on that body don't look original to me. They are clearly fatter (like the RF cover screw in the center) than the ones that are on my early M3. The original screws are countersunk, while these are not. That could indicate that someone DIYd the holes.

Pretty sure that's what happened. The top plate is late, the body is early. Likely done because late numbers fetch a premium, supposedly better built cameras...

It may have been transformed to a Single Stroke though, common practise with a CLA at Leica.

Not very useful without the camera in hand: when you remove the bottom plate and take out the screws that hold the covering plate for the mechanism (it's got the picture of how to insert film on it), you will see the serial number printed there as well.

Unlikely that this number and the top plate number will match on this camera...


EDIT: interesting Asterisk * on the top plate BTW, allegedly used to indicate a double-issued serial number, IIRC... that might have been a real find on the original camera and without holes drilled into it, alas now it's all but futile...

[ferider]

The early M3, like 781xxx that you show above, has other typical visible differences to newer M3s, for example Buddha strap lugs, shorter rewind lever, different rewind knob (no two dots), one chrome ring missing under the shutter button/wind lever, and usually different shutter speeds (including 1/25, for instance).

None of these differences are there in your newer M3 (1041xxx) - except for the two screws it really looks like a > 1 Mio M3. So I'm not sure what happened. Also there is a "*" in the serial number. I am guessing a factory upgrade, but not sure.

Originally Posted by buzzardkid

The top plate is late, the body is early.

Don't think that's true since shutter speeds are different and strap lugs are modern. I think the camera has many new pieces not just the top cover.

You might want to ask the seller if the finder has DOF marks. At least you then know what age the finder is.

[Timmyjoe]

Thanks for all the help folks. I think I'll pass on that one and keep looking.

Best,
-Tim

[bob338]

Originally Posted by Timmyjoe

Thanks for all the help folks. I think I'll pass on that one and keep looking.

Best,
-Tim

$1799 is way too much for an M3. Watch the classifieds here, one will turn up for much less than that.

[Timmyjoe]

Hi Bob,

Not sure where you came up with the $1799 as the auction I was looking at on the big auction site, the auction that top picture is from, had a Buy It Now of $969.

Best,
-Tim

[bob338]

Originally Posted by Timmyjoe

Hi Bob,

Not sure where you came up with the $1799 as the auction I was looking at on the big auction site, the auction that top picture is from, had a Buy It Now of $969.

Best,
-Tim

oops. i guess i looked at the wrong auction...

[axiom]

The other thing is the rewind lever.
It has a longer arm found in earlier model.

[Travis L.]

The asterisk after the serial number denotes it as a duplicate number.

It happens when you send a camera or lens back to Leica for repair and they have to replace or re-engrave the serial number for some reason.

[Travis L.]

If I had to guess, I would say it was a Late M3 that was sent to Leica with a damaged top plate.
As I'm sure the replacement M3 top plate stock is getting a little thin, they replaced it with an earlier one that had the drilled holes already in it.

Everything else points towards a later camera. The guard around the lens release, rewind knob and advance lever are all certainly later examples.

[Timmyjoe]

Originally Posted by axiom

The other thing is the rewind lever.
It has a longer arm found in earlier model.

Hadn't noticed that. Good eyes you have.

Best,
-Tim

[vrgard]

I've got no dog in this hunt but did learn some things from the discourse. Thanks!

[ferider]

Originally Posted by axiom

The other thing is the rewind lever.
It has a longer arm found in earlier model.

That's incorrect. Early models have a shorter lever.

Early (a little younger than the above 781xxx, still DS, but new rewind lever; Canadian, too):



Late:



Roland.

[Travis L.]

Originally Posted by ferider

That's incorrect. Early models have a shorter lever.

Early (a little younger than the above 781xxx, still DS, but new rewind lever; Canadian, too):



Late:



Roland.

I almost made the same mistake. he's talking about the rewind lever. Not the advance.

[ferider]

Not sure, Travis, he said "It has a longer arm" ....

In any case, I'm hoping the above are nice examples for comparison.

Roland.

[Travis L.]

Originally Posted by ferider

Not sure, Travis, he said "It has a longer arm" ....

In any case, I'm hoping the above are nice examples for comparison.

Roland.

Yeah, the rewind lever on the front of the camera is slightly (but noticeably) longer on earlier cameras.
Like I said, when I read his initial post I thought the same thing as you.

It's an easy thing to miss, and it certainly could have been replaced on this M3.

[ferider]

I see what you mean ... Thanks.

[digitalintrigue]

Originally Posted by Timmyjoe

Here is an early M3 that I painted. You can see the single dot on the rewind knob, the buddha lugs, and old style shutter speeds, and the two screws. There are also two on the back of the top plate. The early M3s also have a separate eyepiece glass from the black eyepiece ring; later ones have the glass built-in to the ring.

[Travis L.]

gorgeous camera!

The big tip offs for this being a later model camera are the strap lugs and the lens release guard.

[Travis L.]

Originally Posted by thomasw_

hehe no I think he did mean the film advance lever not the rewind knob because of how he incorrectly described it as being shorter/longer which is a characteristic of a lever, not a knob

so Roland was correct to correct

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

Not talking about the rewind knob... Talking about the lever on the front of the camera that engages the rewind.

[Travis L.]

Sorry for the crap iPhone shot.

Camera on the bottom is a DS M3 802xxxx. Has a longer rewind arm.
Camera on top is a later SS M3 1073xxxx. has shorter rewind arm.

image-4259454703.jpg

[gdi]

Wow. I think I have a prototype early M3 (see avatar) without those extra screws in the top plate. My DS 874XXX from 1957 still had the L seal and was bought from the original owner.
I suppose this rare beast was used as a testbed for the new top cover and other secret changes, and was probably presented as token of appreciation to a company executive or other dignitary.

Let the bidding begin, and let's keep it orderly please.

[Travis L.]

Originally Posted by gdi

Wow. I think I have a prototype early M3 (see avatar) without those extra screws in the top plate. My DS 874XXX from 1957 still had the L seal and was bought from the original owner.
I suppose this rare beast was used as a testbed for the new top cover and other secret changes, and was probably presented as token of appreciation to a company executive or other dignitary.

Let the bidding begin, and let's keep it orderly please.

Ha, Yeah those screws went away pretty early on. My 802xxxx DS M3 doesn't have them.

BTW you should know if your camera was presented to a "company executive or other dignitary" since you bought it from the original owner.

[Travis L.]

Originally Posted by thomasw_

travis: thanks for interpreting the terms and explaining what he meant. i thought all the talk was about a knob

No problem. That's why I'm here.