Street shooting shutter speeds

[Meakin]

Originally Posted by jaimiepeeters

well.. I was asking for which RF would work for ME.. I'm sure you guys can come up with some good options that have shutters faster than 500?

Well ..IMHO - I find it hard to believe that the reason for your problem is that you need a camera with a shutter faster than 1/500 of a sec. But with that being said, it is your choice and one RF that does come to mind is the Konica Hexar RF (Top shutter speed = 1/4000 sec.)


/Meakin

[jaimiepeeters]

Show me a picture of a man walking, close up, and nothing is motion blurred on 1/500
When you shoot somebody from a distance you wont see the tiny movements, but close up, you need higher than 500. I tested it with the X100.. I got it sharp between 640 and 1000.

The Hexar RF plus lens puts me back about 1500, doest it not? anyting perhaps in the 1000 € range?

[jaimiepeeters]

Originally Posted by danielmk2

The problem is, that the shooter is moving. If the camera is moving, due to a very interesting "magnifying" effect, the "relative" speed between the scene and the camera becomes very high. Just think about the shake of the camera that causes the blurs, the principle is similar, but in this case it's more seriously affected. If the camera not only moves, but also rotates, this problem will be a nightmare.

I'm always experiencing this problem when I'm shooting in the street. If the camera is still, 1/125 is far more enough. If the shooter is moving, 500 even 1000 is what I find, a must, sometimes even 1000 is just bare enough if we are both moving.

nobody seems to believe us, but trial and error proves us right..
not that THAT matters.. but I would rather talk about a solution.

[furcafe]

It's not that we don't believe you, just that you seem to have higher, sports photography-style, standards for avoiding any blur. Most street shooters prefer, or are willing to accept, some blur (after all, Saints Cartier-Bresson & Winogrand didn't have a problem w/it ). There's a reason why sports photographers use modern equipment, not RFs or TLRs like they did back in the '40s & '50s.

As far as solutions, they're pretty limited: a used Hexar RF, which tops out @ 1/4000th, or 1 of the newer Bessas & the Zeiss Ikon, which top out @ 1/2000th. There's no film RF that goes up to 1/8000th like a Nikon D4 or Canon 1Ds (or their film predecessors).

Originally Posted by jaimiepeeters

nobody seems to believe us, but trial and error proves us right..
not that THAT matters.. but I would rather talk about a solution.

[jaimiepeeters]

Originally Posted by furcafe

It's not that we don't believe you, just that you seem to have higher, sports photography-style, standards for avoiding any blur. Most street shooters prefer, or are willing to accept, some blur (after all, Saints Cartier-Bresson & Winogrand didn't have a problem w/it ). There's a reason why sports photographers use modern equipment, not RFs or TLRs like they did back in the '40s & '50s.

As far as solutions, they're pretty limited: a used Hexar RF, which tops out @ 1/4000th, or 1 of the newer Bessas & the Zeiss Ikon, which top out @ 1/2000th. There's no film RF that goes up to 1/8000th like a Nikon D4 or Canon 1Ds (or their film predecessors).

OK, let me point out Joel Meyerowitz. I like his style and that would be a perfect example of what I'm trying ot achieve, explain. I dont think I need to go up to 4000 but higher than 500 (lets say 1000) should do the trick.

Doesn't the Leica M series go up to 4000 too? Leica M2/M3? Not sure about this really, just asking.

[jaimiepeeters]

found it:

Joel Meyerowitz: It's a difference in the ASA at which you're shooting. We were using Tri-X film pushed to 1200 ASA, whereas the normal rating is 400. The reason was to be able to shoot at 1/1000th of a second as much as possible, because if you made pictures on the street at 1/125th, they were blurry. If you lunged at something, either it would move or else your own motion would mess up the picture. I began to work that way after looking at my pictures and noticing that they had those loose edges, Garry's were crisp. Frank didn't work that way. His pictures were much slower. You could see he was working at 1/30th and 1/60th and 1/125th.

so 1000 is the key... now the camera.

[foolproof]

Originally Posted by jaimiepeeters

Show me a picture of a man walking, close up, and nothing is motion blurred on 1/500
When you shoot somebody from a distance you wont see the tiny movements, but close up, you need higher than 500. I tested it with the X100.. I got it sharp between 640 and 1000.

The Hexar RF plus lens puts me back about 1500, doest it not? anyting perhaps in the 1000 € range?

All 1/250

[danielmk2]

the speed does matters, however it's us that solve the problems. If we use an M with max. 1/1000 shutter, just keep that in mind and don't try to push it over its limit. If we use an Hexar RF with 1/4000, we have the chance to push ourselves further

furcafe is right, style makes difference, I do have many photos that are a little blur, but I'm still happy with them because they don't always need to be very sharp

If any fast motion should be totally freezed for that moment, don't hesitate, grab the Hexar RF and shoot, it's what you need, I'm pretty sure

[TXForester]

Originally Posted by jaimiepeeters

Leica M2/M3? Not sure about this really, just asking.

I don't own a Leica, but looked it up on cameraquest.com. It says there the M3 goes to 1/1000. That should do it for you.

The Canon P goes to 1/1000 too.

[jaimiepeeters]

Thanks TX.. I saw a Hexar RF incl Voigtländer Color Skopar 35mm f2.5 PII start bidding at 600€ ... and M2 + lens would set me back about 1000 total.

[batterytypehah!]

Originally Posted by TXForester

I don't own a Leica, but looked it up on cameraquest.com. It says there the M3 goes to 1/1000. That should do it for you.

The Canon P goes to 1/1000 too.

So do Barnack Leicas (IIIa and later), Contax/Kiev, Nikon... Not rocket science. Just don't expect it to work reliably, unless the camera has recently been tuned up.

Get a Bessa. A hundred bucks buys a Bessa-L (I doubt you're using the RF much with your style).

[Bob Michaels]

Originally Posted by pinkarmy

it is sub-tropic noon, 21°C, sunny with scattered clouds, sharp tree shadow on ground,
my QL17 gave a f5.6~8 reading at 1/500 sec for iso 160.

what is the daylight in Rome?

The light output of the sun is constant everywhere on the earth. Now sometimes there is a bit of haze but you mentioned "sharp tree shadow on ground" which indicates clear sky. Is your reading a reflected reading from something dark? That might indicate why you would get a stop over actual. Some meters drift as well. Of course, in actual practice a stop more exposure using negative film means nothing. How one meters can strongly influence the reading one gets. But if you take an accurate reading with a good incident meter, you would get a stop less. That is why some old timers who do not use a meter always get perfect exposure while those who simply follow meter readings are mislead.

[Richard G]

Originally Posted by Bob Michaels

The light output of the sun is constant everywhere on the earth. Now sometimes there is a bit of haze but you mentioned "sharp tree shadow on ground" which indicates clear sky. Is your reading a reflected reading from something dark? That might indicate why you would get a stop over actual. Some meters drift as well. Of course, in actual practice a stop more exposure using negative film means nothing. How one meters can strongly influence the reading one gets. But if you take an accurate reading with a good incident meter, you would get a stop less. That is why some old timers who do not use a meter always get perfect exposure while those who simply follow meter readings are mislead.

Bob, some of those old timers were using a Rolleiflex which had an exposure guide on the back, with different exposures for winter versus summer. The low winter sun in northern Europe through more of the atmosphere does reduce the light somewhat.

[Meakin]

Originally Posted by jaimiepeeters

Show me a picture of a man walking, close up, and nothing is motion blurred on 1/500........

I'm not going to "show" you anything, I don't need to (EDIT: I can see others have) - I have an opinion different from yours. Respect that please, and I will do the same with yours

What I'm trying to say is this:

In my humble opinion and from what you have described in this thread, you would be in a far more advantageous postion, if you worked on adapting your technique to fit the situation - instead of seeking a technical solution so as to adapt the situation to your liking.

I'm not saying that 1/500 sec is enough in any situation, only that from what is described here, it seems plausible that the problem may be elsewhere than the 1/500 sec max shutter.

Good luck!

Cheers,

/Meakin

[jsrockit]

Originally Posted by jaimiepeeters

so 1000 is the key... now the camera.

How many more do we have to list? There are bunch listed in this thread. What is wrong with the suggestions?

[River Dog]

This one can be no higher than 1/250 on the Yashica Electro 35 CC

[finguanzo]

D3 or D4, 1/8000, 11 fps.
That will get you sharp moving objects...

[Jockos]

Originally Posted by jsrockit

Sounds like the cameras shutter isn't firing at the speeds indicated on the dial. As far as a step up... how about a Bessa R or a Leica CL?

I was thinking this to. Now portra is pretty good with overexposure, so you might not notice if the shutter is a bit sticky.

I have a Canonet to, and the leaf shutter was pretty sticky before I cleaned it. Maybe you chould do a "scientific" test with a low latitude film to see if the times are accurate?
Since you said it's already been CLA'd, the speeds should be good, but getting blur with a 50mm at 1/500 seems a bit akward.

[menos]

You have to look into how you move, when shooting other people in movement.

I always try to take a bit of speed out, when wanted and move along with my subjects, when possible.

Walking with my subject (5cm Leitz Summarit ƒ1.5 wide open @ 1/350):



… or side by side:



This is a shot on a rainy day in Shanghai - same lens, stopped down to ƒ2, shot at 1/750th of an upcoming scooter rider, loaded.
Here, I ran over the street, walked backwards in traffic and panned my subject while focussing - it could have been done as well @ 1/250th, but turned out faster, as I used AE:



This man is walking towards me - it's a candid portrait of a worker, carrying a heavy (really heavy) bag. Again the old Summarit, stopped down to ƒ2, to get more than his face in focus - shot @ 1/250, while I was walking backwards with him:



One extremely import point about shooting all this moving stuff with a manual focus RF camera is to learn your timing and how to move your own body, when shooting moving subjects.
Here is an elderly lady, riding her bicycle on the pedestrian walk towards me, again, I walk backwards, focus, panning her and shoot:



A man walking on the sidewalk, having a smoke, shot at 1/350th, I had to walk with him:



This is not really a slow shutter speed, but considering, that verticals are not my forte, I am at the moment training vertical panning shots - Summarit ƒ1.5 ~ƒ2:



This is an interesting shot regarding actual movement of photographer and subject - a construction worker is riding home with a passenger in the late afternoon on a dreary, rainy day.
He turns a left hand corner fast, as I am walking backwards with him inside the corner, shooting with the Noctilux @ ~ƒ1 − 1.4 - shutter speed: 1/45 sec:



Similar situation - low light, Noctilux wide open @ ƒ1, walking together with my subject, to be able, to frame and focus this shot @ shutter speed: 1/30 sec:



I shoot motor sports with the Leica M.
During the time in-between the races, I stay sharp by doing daily drive by shots, shooting out of cars, taxis, buses.
I love Shanghai and it's people and spend most nights and weekends on the streets.

It's often really more like dancing, than gluing yourself top one spot like a tripod and click your shutter.

I never use tripods, always shoot handheld - the more my subjects are in motion, the more, I love and enjoy to shoot.

[skibeerr]

Originally Posted by jaimiepeeters

The feet of your second and third image are motion blurred

And don't you think the horizon is 0,5° out of whack on the third one

No really with what you expect you need a flash a la Gilden.

[paradoxbox]

Fantastic pics and advice Dirk!

agree if the kind of motion stopping 1/500 provides is not good enough for you, you need to be shooting with a flash or use a very wide angle lens so motion blur doesn't show up as much. A P&S camera like a Ricoh GRD III or IV may be a good solution at 28 or 21mm (depending on the lens you use) at F1.9 - lots of DOF and a wide focal length ought to give lots of frozen action.

[menos]

Thanks paradoxbox!

I have been trying all kinds of cameras, two GRDs included.
I found, that from all cameras, either the classic fully mechanic cameras (especially rangefinders) or, if budgets permit a digital Leica or a R-D1 really offer the best response in focussing, timing and shutter release feel, to shoot subjects in motion.