Go Back   Rangefinderforum.com > 35mm Film Range Finders > Leica M Film Cameras

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes

Old 02-20-2012   #101
tbarker13
shooter of stuff
 
tbarker13's Avatar
 
tbarker13 is offline
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 1,670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Hicks View Post
You are conflating 'justify' and 'afford'. I don't drive a Bristol because I can't afford one. If I wanted a second-hand BMW or Mercedes I could afford one, but I've driven both and been underwhelmed. As it is, my car is a '72 Land Rover and my wife's is a '90 Seat: hardly flashy motoring. But we can both go out and shoot with two Leicas 'round our necks if we want, 'cos that's how we prefer to spend our money. There's no 'justification' involved at all.

Cheers,

R.
Roger, I think we'll disagree on this.
Justify: "To show to be just or right."
or: "to show a satisfactory reason or excuse for something to be done.

Buyers do justify their purchases to themselves. And there is nothing wrong with it. I can afford to buy an M9. But I cannot justify the purchase to myself. So I don't buy one.
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-20-2012   #102
Roger Hicks
Registered User
 
Roger Hicks is offline
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Aquitaine
Posts: 20,890
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdarnton View Post
All of my rationalizations for owning a Leica disappeared the second I realized that there wasn't any correspondence between which of my pictures I liked best and what camera they'd been shot with. At that moment, about three or four years ago, I decided to sell my Leica stuff and go with a system where I could both have and afford more options. I went with the system with the longest history of compatibility and functionality, the greatest amount of high-quality stuff on the used market, that would almost ALL still function on new cameras (sorry, Canon!), and it wasn't Leica.
And mine went the opposite way decades ago, when I realized that most of my best shots were taken with Leicas, because they best suit the way I work. This is, without question, the best rational way of deciding which cameras to use: which give you the most good pictures? If Leica, stick with Leica. If not, not. Unless, of course, you just enjoy using Leicas. Which is also rational.

Cheers,

R.
__________________
Now even more free photography information on www.rogerandfrances.com
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-20-2012   #103
Roger Hicks
Registered User
 
Roger Hicks is offline
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Aquitaine
Posts: 20,890
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbarker13 View Post
Roger, I think we'll disagree on this.
Justify: "To show to be just or right."
or: "to show a satisfactory reason or excuse for something to be done.
Dear Tim,

Perhaps you would care to attempt to define "just" . . . "right" . . . "a satisfactory reason or excuse"

That's all pretty subjective from where I'm standing.

Cheers,

R.
__________________
Now even more free photography information on www.rogerandfrances.com
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-20-2012   #104
tbarker13
shooter of stuff
 
tbarker13's Avatar
 
tbarker13 is offline
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 1,670
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave lackey View Post
This is where we disagree...if I want it and I can afford it, I buy it. If not, I don't. No justification of anything to anyone. I don't have a guilt complex about what I do with the meager amount of money I spend each year and I don't have anyone to answer to either. I don't understand this so-called value scale at all but everyone is different!
I think a lot of people feel that way. But some of us make choices between different things we want to do. I'm not sure why you'd equate those choices with guilt.
I have two passions. Photography and competition shooting. They are both quite expensive.
When I take money from one and put it toward the other, there is never anything close to guilt. It's simply a question of where I will get the most bang for my buck. (No pun intended on the bang part.)
I never felt guilty about having a 35 pre-asph lux. But at some point, I started thinking that was a lot of money to have tied up in something I seldom used. So it no longer felt right to keep it. And so there was no justification for keeping it. But never any guilt.
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-20-2012   #105
tbarker13
shooter of stuff
 
tbarker13's Avatar
 
tbarker13 is offline
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 1,670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Hicks View Post
Dear Tim,

Perhaps you would care to attempt to define "just" . . . "right" . . . "a satisfactory reason or excuse"

That's all pretty subjective from where I'm standing.

Cheers,

R.
Well sure. That's the point. It doesn't matter to me where you are standing when I'm deciding if I can justify an M9 to myself. People justify purchases to themselves, based on what they feel is "just" "right" , etc.
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-20-2012   #106
mfunnell
Shaken, so blurred
 
mfunnell's Avatar
 
mfunnell is offline
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 2,305
Just thinking: what Leica gear do I own?

Confining it strictly to "Leica" branded gear I own an M3 (picked up on eBay some years ago for a very good price), an Elmar-M 50mm/f2.8 (bought near-new at some discount from full-whack, but it wasn't one of their more expensive lenses), a Summilux 75mm/f1.4 (bought 2nd-hand before the big price increases at a still-better price as it required a CLA before it was usable), a Summitar 50mm/f2 (quite cheap 2nd hand) and a Summaron 35mm/f3.5 (also inexpensive 2nd-hand).

Adding all my other LTM and M-Mount gear (Hexar RF cameras, a Canon P and 4xKonica, 2xCanon, 1xCV and 1xCZ lenses) and I have quite a lot of good "Leica-ish" equipment which I enjoy using. Yet all this hasn't gone near to costing what I've spent on Canon Digital SLR gear.

Sure, I could easily spend more that I have for all the above on a single brand-new Leica item. But just because I can doesn't mean I have to. I've had a great deal of use of most of the above without breaking my wallet.

Sure there are things I'd like to have or try (we can all dream!). If I really pushed, I could probably afford them. (Well, with top-end Leica gear, probably only one at any given time.) I just don't want to, at least not that badly. If others do, or are in a position where they can afford whatever they want, that's no skin off my nose. In fact I'm sure it helps: they're the ones keeping Leica in business - and 2nd hand gear has to come from somewhere.

...Mike
__________________
There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." Dave Barry

My flickr photostream has day-to-day stuff and I've given up most everywhere else through lack of time or perhaps interest.
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-20-2012   #107
wjlapier
Registered User
 
wjlapier's Avatar
 
wjlapier is offline
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,013
I don't.

ala carte M7 for me.
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-20-2012   #108
Alfasud
Old Toys
 
Alfasud's Avatar
 
Alfasud is offline
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 205
I suspect that most of us reading RFF like beautiful, well made equipment almost as much as we love the pictures we make. A fine piece of equipment, for which you may have sacrificed, may make your pictures better...or not.
__________________
Contax IIIa, Konica III, Vitessa L Ultron, Hasselblad 500c, Minox B, ZI Nettar 510/2, Pentax Q, HP Photosmart 945
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-20-2012   #109
Mr. Fizzlesticks
Registered User
 
Mr. Fizzlesticks is offline
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 17
As far as I am concerned you haven't hurt anyone so you can do whatever you want, no justification needed.
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-20-2012   #110
agfa100
Registered User
 
agfa100 is offline
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 189
I have been using M cameras and lenses since 1971, I bought most of my M lenses in the 70's used except for my 90mm 2.0 and 28mm 2.8 which were new in 74. You don't want to know the price I paid for them then. I have never wanted to replace any of my M lenses it was a lifetime purchase, so they were very cheap in the long run. Now I stopped using them for about 3 years and really missed them. Kept looking at M-8's but glad I waited for a GXR and M module. Remember don't ever sell your M lenses....

wbill
__________________
<a href='http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=460'>My Gallery</a>
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-20-2012   #111
Turtle
Registered User
 
Turtle is offline
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,628
I personally wanted NOT to like Leica. I did not want to spend the money and did not want to enter into what some regard as an elitist realm. It was despite these concerns that I did so, purely because the 35mm RF tool gave me what I needed:

Small, easily hidden under clothing, coats etc.
Simple, rugged, reliable.
Great lenses.

I wanted something longer lasting than the CV bodies and the Zeiss Ikon was still a little untested, I had read about RF drift and other niggles that I could not deal with when stuck in Afghanistan, so I put my money down on Leica.

I bought into the system in 2006, with a great market new body, now worth what I paid for it despite going from new to used.

Were I doing it today, I would likely buy used M6s, rather than MPs and not bought any of the new products I did.

The only mistake I made with Leica was in selling gear. I sold a lens worth about $3000 more now than it was then. Stupidest thing I have ever done.
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-21-2012   #112
Niko
Registered User
 
Niko's Avatar
 
Niko is offline
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Finland
Posts: 93
This turned out as a very interesting thread indeed!

I feel now that it´s possible to own and enjoy using these silly priced lenses/cameras and at the same time admit that they are indeed silly priced.

I think asking these questions hardly indicates that one couldn´t enjoy his/her life ??

This isn´t buyer´s remorse, i´d say. I had that many years ago when i bought some nice lenses i couldn't really afford for my Pentax SLR... This isn´t the case now.
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-21-2012   #113
OddE
Recovering GAS addict.
 
OddE is offline
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Aalesund, Norway
Age: 36
Posts: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanOnRoute66 View Post
DSLRs that are worth as much now as they were when you bought them? I'd like to know what those are!
-I must have been unclear; what I was trying to say was that with the exception of two DSLRs and a lens, just about all my gear can be sold for what I gave for it in the first place.

Please bear with me; English is my third language.
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-21-2012   #114
David Hughes
Registered User
 
David Hughes's Avatar
 
David Hughes is offline
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,743
OK, well, um, we seem to have exhausted our definitions of "justify" and now can we decide who we have to justify it to?

As I see it, it's my money, I've not had other priorities at the time and so can't see that it matters what I spend or what I spend it on. As it's not illegal yet...

Regards, David
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-21-2012   #115
sig
Registered User
 
sig is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 552
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Hughes View Post
OK, well, um, we seem to have exhausted our definitions of "justify" and now can we decide who we have to justify it to?

As I see it, it's my money, I've not had other priorities at the time and so can't see that it matters what I spend or what I spend it on. As it's not illegal yet...

Regards, David
So you justify it with 'it is my money'. I agree as long as you can justify it to yourself it is ok (as long as it is legal and so on).

I have a lot of other things to spend money on and my photograpic adventures can be done with much cheaper alternatives. So I guess I can not justify leica prices.
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-21-2012   #116
Paul Jenkin
Late Developer
 
Paul Jenkin is offline
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Essex, UK
Posts: 722
Balancing "needs" with "wants" is a tricky bit of economics.

Recently, I felt I wanted a second M body so that I don't have to change film or change lenses if I'm using the same film in both. Sheer convenience and sheer luxury in my opinion as I'm not a professional and I could have managed if I'd needed to.

Although I could have afforded a second body in addition to my existing stuff, I didn't want to and I was prepared to sacrifice / trade some of it to offset the cost. However, there are some bits of kit whoch, though lovely, have little attraction for me as I don't perceive the need for them - given the way I shoot and the kit I have already. A Leica Noctilux lens is in that category as far as I'm concerned as I'm more than happy with the output from my Summicron and Elmarit lenses. But that's just me....

If you can "afford" it (i.e. it doesn't cause you to have to make difficult compromises elsewhere in your life) it makes you happy and gives you the results you want, don't worry about it. If it does any of the aforementioned, it's probably not what you need and possibly not what you want.
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-21-2012   #117
jsrockit
Moderator
 
jsrockit's Avatar
 
jsrockit is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: NYC
Age: 41
Posts: 14,834
The M9... sold a bunch of used items (photographic [M8.2] and non) to get the cash because I wanted a digital camera that was closest to my favorite film camera, the M6. Regarding lenses, I only own a 50mm summarit 2.5 as my only Leica lens (bought used)...the rest are CV or Zeiss because I cannot justify Leica lens prices.
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-21-2012   #118
mfunnell
Shaken, so blurred
 
mfunnell's Avatar
 
mfunnell is offline
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 2,305
Some perspective (if you'll excuse the word). There's some Leica equipment I'd love to own but can't and won't afford, but Leica isn't the only company who produces expensive lenses. In some ways I lust after this even more:

http://www.adorama.com/CA400282U.html

It may not be the kind of shot that's much appreciated around here, because it's not the kind of photo many here like to take. But as much as I like, well, Leica-like photos, I also enjoy this kind of thing:



It isn't the best photo in the world, and far from my best shot of a Rainbow Lorikeet. But it was taken this afternoon, and the lens I took it with is not a Leica lens, won't mount on a Leica camera and probably never will nor should. It's also the most expensive lens I own. The one referenced above is a lens I'd dearly love to own, but can't or won't afford.

Sometimes I think people here get too carried away. Leica isn't the only photographic company in the world which produces very expensive equipment.

...Mike
__________________
There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." Dave Barry

My flickr photostream has day-to-day stuff and I've given up most everywhere else through lack of time or perhaps interest.
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-21-2012   #119
David Hughes
Registered User
 
David Hughes's Avatar
 
David Hughes is offline
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,743
Quote:
Originally Posted by sig View Post
So you justify it with 'it is my money'. I agree as long as you can justify it to yourself it is ok (as long as it is legal and so on).

I have a lot of other things to spend money on and my photograpic adventures can be done with much cheaper alternatives. So I guess I can not justify leica prices.
Um, well, I was justifying not justifying as it's my money and that's the end of the matter. So I asked who I had to justify it to.

My fear is that they will knock on the door and ask me to justify buying German equipment when English is available. Pointing out that I'm Welsh and the Germanicans* were a Celtic tribe also might not get me far.

Regards, David

* The ones the Romans duffed up, not Hitler's dream world.
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-21-2012   #120
Kent
Finally at home...
 
Kent's Avatar
 
Kent is offline
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Germany
Age: 44
Posts: 1,235
I can't.

That's why I only own the (relatively) "reasonably" priced Leica stuff and fill the gaps with other brands.
__________________
Cheers, Kent
_______
Main Cams: Nikon, Fuji, Leica, Pentax, Panasonic, Canon
Main Lenses: Nikkor, Fuji, Voigtländer, Sigma, Leica, Pentax, Tamron, Samyang etc.
Click me...
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-21-2012   #121
anjoca76
Registered User
 
anjoca76's Avatar
 
anjoca76 is offline
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 617
Photography for me is purely a hobby. I love it, but it's a hobby, therefore I buy used and only buy what I really want and what I can afford. I guess that means I "justify" it to myself before buying something for photography.

When it comes to music, however, which I do semi-professionally, and at times professionally, I have no problem investing in top-notch guitars, amps, etc., because I need to rely on them for my career. I need to know my guitar is well-maintained and will work and that it will sound as best as it can. I can't cut corners when it comes to music gear. Justification isn't really needed.

When I go to the classifieds and see someone selling off excess gear and see numerous lenses going for $3K and $4K apiece, I am dumbfounded that anyone could possibly have much money invested in glass, but then again, if those people actually needed them for professional work, then so be it. If you can afford it and you need it, the more power to you! Life is too short. You can't take it with you!
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-21-2012   #122
Paul Luscher
Registered User
 
Paul Luscher is offline
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 650
Why. because I kinda fell into Leica with the type of shooting I was doing, and still do. And now, with a load of Leica glass, and only ONE digital rangefinder in the market ( guess whose?), it made (ahem) economical sense to buy the M9, rather than have my lenses gather dust on a shelf.

Also, if you've ever shot Leica: You'll know why you buy 'em. You 'll know...
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-21-2012   #123
KM-25
Registered User
 
KM-25 is offline
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,208
How I justify any photographic purchase is how it is going to enable me to get the image I want...

I bought Leica to use for shooting over a thousand rolls of Kodachrome. It made a difference in certain light, not so much in others. It also made certain types of images easier to get and some harder, I saw no difference in using a FM3A or a Leica M6 in shooting street, focusing being faster on the FM3A when the subject was not centered resulting in less "Hang-time" in terms of the camera being at your eye. My professional opinion as to Leica being the best camera for street? Not really, it is up to the photographer, I get great street photos with a Hasselblad for pete's sake…

After Kodachrome was done, i sold most of the really expensive Leica gear, simply did not see the same difference in using it with a month long rental of an M9. A few seconds of adjusting the sliders in post with an image from a D700 or X100 in post, viola, Leica image!

So last year, I re-assembled a lighter kit, M6, M3 along with a 28 CV, 35 F/2 asph, 50 F/2 ZM and a rarely used 90 CV. I also used an FM3A with a 35/2 AIS, all with Tri-X. When I printed the images from the Leica 35/2 and the Nikon one and looked at them with other people, we really saw very little difference in technical terms but saw a fairly significant difference in composition and impact…

Because I could see what I was doing in terms of background versus foreground and focusing subjects off center, 8 times out of 10, the images made with the FM3A and 35 F2 were simply better.

Last week, I sold everything except one M3 and the 50 ZM and put all that wonderful cash into thousands of dollars worth of paper, film and chemistry.

A few years ago, I could justify using more Leica gear, including the 50 asph, not anymore, especially with the prices the way they are and killer cameras like the silent X100. Sure, they are fun to use, feel good, look neato, pretty quiet, but when it comes right down to it, I am a photographer first and the impact of the photograph is essential.

As a professional photographer who's future rests on shooting images with great impact and then selling fine art black and white darkroom prints, in terms of how the photos turn out, I see hardly any reason to justify the new and used prices of Leica gear.

No regrets in buying it for what I needed it for, no regrets in selling it because the job is done and the money is better used for other needs...
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-21-2012   #124
Messsucherkamera
Registered User
 
Messsucherkamera is offline
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave lackey View Post
If one can afford to buy something, there is no need to "justify" to anyone. If one needs a tool for the business, there is only the business decision. If neither of the aforementioned situations are applicable, one buys what one wants.
That pretty much says it all.

Buying Leica cameras and lenses is an investment for a lifetime, not a self centered indulgence for the foolish yet well heeled.

I carry and use my Leica M gear every day. My M4-P and lenses have opened the gates to a whole new dimension of photographic vision and way of making images. I sold off my Mamiya 7ll kit with three lenses to help fund my Leica investment. I have never regretted making that choice. Sometimes bigger is not always better.

In the end, it's not about money and "justification." Its about making images and in a way that makes the process and the end product more enjoyable.

I do not want the words, "He could not 'justify' the cost of a Leica camera" carved on my grave stone. Where's the glory or wisdom in that??
__________________
"The winter leeks
have been washed white
how cold it is!"


- Matsuo Basho
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-21-2012   #125
Ronald_H
Don't call me Ron
 
Ronald_H's Avatar
 
Ronald_H is offline
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Helmond, The Netherlands
Age: 43
Posts: 1,701
As said, the results don't justify the price in my mind. Not even in the case of my second hand kit I looked long and hard for. But granted, it is damn nice to own something like this:


Camera porn - Recovered Leica M2 w. Summicron DR by Ronald_H, on Flickr
__________________
"The only substitute for Tri-X is more Tri-X"

My Flickr

My regular website: www.lookupinwonder.nl
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 17:47.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.