Help: Fair price for collapsible summicron? Things to watch out for?

[tomperson]

Hi Guys,

I've been recently offered a collapsible summicron, i'm interested in it - where I live i don't have many options to buy second hand lenses, and i'm tempted by the idea of actually seeing the lens in person instead of buying off ebay.

The person that sells the lens has no idea regarding a fair price as the lens was her father's - in fact, she wanted to sell it for more than 1000 US dollars, which is way too much.

So, how much do you think would be a fair price for a collapsible summicron that looks like this:





As you can see the front element seems to have a dose of cleaning marks, i guess thats to be expected for most of user lenses from the 50s, particularly early summicrons which had rather soft glass. Would that affect image quality too much?

According to Leica 50mm Summicron-M Lens Price & Information Guide, a collapsible summicron in EXC condition should cost between 475 and 700 US dollars. Not sure how realistic that price is, or what is considered EXC for a lens this old.

So, what do you think? Opinions? Ideas? Things to watch out for?

[Dralowid]

Without wishing to cause offence that front element looks pretty grim and do I see a suggestion of clouding, damp ingress or fungus? Not sure...

Another thing to check is bad scoring on the barrel where the locationg ball has come out of the groove when collapsing.

From what I can see I would steer away from it for the front element alone.

Michael

[Moriturii]

$1000?? *MINT* collapsible crons go for less, I'd buy it for $200 though, not more. And yes, collapsible Crons with no frontal scratches are very rare.

[tomperson]

No offense at all, that's exactly the kind of comments i'm looking for. I'm not sure to tell if there's fungus based on that pic, but there are certainly cleaning marks. I got the impression that for lenses this age (and particularly the early summicrons) this was kind of normal.

Supposing the lens is actually usable, no oil in the aperture blades, smooth focusing and aperture, how much do you think it is worth?

[tomperson]

Originally Posted by Moriturii

$1000?? *MINT* collapsible crons go for less, I'd buy it for $200 though, not more. And yes, collapsible Crons with no frontal scratches are very rare.

Yes, i know, the asking price was waaaaay ridiculous. I guess they found the lens in the armchair, they knew it was kind of luxurious because of being leica, so they just threw the first figure that crossed their minds. I asked a couple of questions through the auction web site, and it seemed they didn't know much about it.

It comes with the original hood as well.

So, it seems we all agree this is far from an EXC lens, how much would you pay? 200 seems a bit too low? They won't probably sell it for that much, he.

[mdarnton]

With a front element like that, assuming it's clean, not just the crud of ages that can be cleaned off (I guess you've tried?), I'd save my money, even $200, and put it towards a good one.

[Ronald M]

Glass is distressed so let her find someone else. $500 if it were perfect which it is not.

Might add the new Summicron is a quantum leap over a 1952 lens. The Rigids and DR , which were the next model, were far better performers.

Rigids and DR are the same formula optics differing in mount only (almost). There were early and late reformulated versions of both. Early had heavy chrome like the coll, late had satin chrome.

[Moriturii]

Originally Posted by tomperson

Yes, i know, the asking price was waaaaay ridiculous. I guess they found the lens in the armchair, they knew it was kind of luxurious because of being leica, so they just threw the first figure that crossed their minds. I asked a couple of questions through the auction web site, and it seemed they didn't know much about it.

It comes with the original hood as well.

So, it seems we all agree this is far from an EXC lens, how much would you pay? 200 seems a bit too low? They won't probably sell it for that much, he.

Naah, need to further review the condition but about $200 I'd give it, $300 if I was desperate (again, depends on further inspection of the glass)

Speaking of which, I've seen this trend, sometimes I see bog standard Leica equipment, M3 or whatever, and they have absurd price tags on them, lately.

[Austerby]

Mine was like that when it came attached to the M3 I bought. Together they cost me about £400 but that was five years ago and prices have rocketed since then. I did use the lens when it was like that and it produced some nice fuzzy, atmospheric shots with lots of flare - not uninteresting in their own right. As I also have an old Summar in similar condition I got the Summicron cleaned and it came up very nicely. So I'd factor in £200 or so to the price if you want to get it refurbished.

[tomperson]

Hey guys! Thanks for all the kind comments. As I said, my main problem is that i don't get too many opportunities to buy used leica stuff in my country, so that's why i was interested in this lens. I have only seen the pics above, in order to see the lens myself i would have to drive like 200 kilometers, so that's why i'm trying to figure out if it makes sense or not.

I guess i still don't know if its worth it or not.

[Ljós]

Hi tomperson, I'll chime in as someone who uses a collapsible Summicron as second most used lens. Let me first acknowledge your situation, namely that Leica lenses do not grow on trees where you live - I can understand well why you are giving this opportunity some extra thought.

Ok, to the lens: it is a screwmount version, serial number is in the early range: no longer one of the Thorium (slightly radioactive, yellow cast) lenses, but not one of the later lenses with improved coatings, either. In market terms, it is in the lower echelon of collapsible Summicrons even before we look at actual condition of the lens itself. (Ah, mind you, with "lower echelon" I do by no means intend to play down the capabilities of these lenses. Mine is from not much later, and I love it to bits. Just placing it marketwise compared to the different versions.)

The chrome and what can be seen from the extension tube look good, does not appear as if the lens had been used VERY much, or knocked about. However I agree with the other posters in that the front lens doesn't look so promising. My guess would be that, in difficult light, you could expect a fair share of "glow"/flare, possibly unsharpness.

How much would I pay? Well, hard to say because your local market (where Leica gear appears to be thin on the ground) also weighs in. I would say 300 USD as an absolute upper limit. 250 and you would not be taking advantage of the seller, either.


There is one more thing for you to know about the collapsible (and impossible for you to check beforehand, unfortunately): When a collapsible Summicron has its focus out of adjustment, it is not trivial to fix. There are no shims that could be changed etc. The focus was set at manufacturing, and readjusting can only be done by carefully bending some parts that hold elements. And only very, very few technicians have the knowledge and capability to do that. So, I would insist on a return right/further reduction of price if it should (I am not saying this happens often with collapsibles! Just: when it happens, it can be hard to have it fixed) turn out that the focus is out of spec.

All the best,
Ljós

[Benjamin Marks]

Tomperson: the problem is, lens coatings were much softer back in the day (1953?) when this lens was produced. The lens is lower contrast than a modern lens and the cleaning marks on the glass will exaggerate this. Typically, when buying a lens like this you would discount the lens by the cost of having it taken apart and cleaned by a professional. Lenses can also be re-coated, but that also costs more money. Finally, there are certain things that you will only be able to tell by getting your hands on the lens. Dry lubricants can make focus gummy and aperture rings hard to turn. These lenses also had a small set-screw on the barrel, and this could crack the brass if overtightened. You may have to inspect the lens physically in order to see this.

[Vics]

Mine is newer than that and in much better condition. I bought it in '05 from KEH for $350 in BGN condition. It looks nearly perfect to my eye. The lens is quite soft and dreamy wide open and sharp and low contrast stopped down. Don't take that "low contrast" description as a negative comment. I get the contrast back in the darkroom. Great "micro-contrast," though, giving a roundness to faces that seems 3-dinensional. Great lens

[NeeZee]

Hi, I got a lens like that in similar condition a few years ago and used it a lot. Eventually a few months ago i sold it for about 270€ on ebay (with correct description of course) although I only paid 170€ together! with a IIIF in a camera store in Munich (that was a pretty good deal, i know, mainly because the camera had a scratched Leica sign and was therefore pretty worthless for the collectors). I really liked this lens but if you want a user 50mm in LTM a Industar 61l/d or Jupiter 8 will definitely outperform a scratched and hazy summicron in every aspect - that's a fact, i've been there..

[I Love Film]

Don't bother with that lens. It is trashed. You'd only be buying a headache.

[TR3B]

You will be hard pressed to achieve the same look that this lens provides with its scratches and all. I just had one lubed but had the tech leave the glass alone in fear of altering its character. If you are intending to use this with a digital M, shoot some shots and review it's signature. Some like it, some don't.
I never did see too clearly!

[Simon Bruxelles]

My advice: only buy this lens if you know a repairer who can either repolish or replace the front element. I would get a quote for the job first, including full service, recoating and calibration, then deduct that from the cost of buying one in pristine condition and offer the seller the balance. If you do decide to go down this route look on it as capital expenditure rather than an investment and make sure you get the repairer to give you an idea of when he will be able to get round to fixing it. I recently got my collapsible Summicron back from one of the UK's top Leica technicians. He had had it for five and a half years. It now looks pristine but it was a hell of a long wait.

[tomperson]

Thanks to all for your kind help. I finally settled on a Jupiter-3 that looked pristine (off ebay) for the time being...