Zeiss Ikon 50/2 worth 2x$$ of Nokton 50/1.5?

[f/stopblues]

I'm looking to pick up a fast(ish) 50mm for my yet-to-be-purchased Bessa. I want to stick to a late model something or other simply so I don't have to stress about fungus, cleaning marks, etc etc. The Leica 50 is out of my league, but then there's the Zeiss Ikon 50/2 that looks superb. Gandy's site lists it new for $627. There's also the Nokton 50/1.5 for $329 (plus LTM to M adapter). That's a *lot* cheaper. Is the Zeiss really worlds beyond the Nokton as the price would indicate? Where will I see the difference? Just the bokeh? I'm not opposed to spending the extra on quality, but it'll put my next lens a little farther out of grasp for now. Words of wisdom?

Chris

[Stephanie Brim]

You can most likely get a user 3rd or 4th generation 'cron for the price you'd pay for the Zeiss. Just mentioning another option.

[Toby]

Almost any 50mm lens produced since the 70's is excellent -the main limiting factor will be your technique and the quality of the processing. If you buy a nominally "better" lens these have got to be absolutely right to show up the difference. In other words don't give the film to the slack-jawed teenager at your local supermarket and either lens will be fine

[jja]

Maybe I'm misremembering, but the latest Summicron can be found in really good shape for about the price of the Zeiss. Another good candidate is the Konica 50/2, which can be found in the $300 range. I have one and am very happy with it.

[JoeFriday]

here's a page showing a few shots with the Nokton
http://web.telia.com/~u32008343/bokeh.htm

and here's the one image I could find for the Planar
http://photos.photosig.com/photos/33...727f761d87.jpg

I researched the same thing about a month ago.. as with most things photographic, it comes down to what you like.. generally the Planar is compared with the Summicron, while the Nokton is considered a step down, albeit a very nice lens in its own right.. the common complaint of the Nokton is its 'harsh' bokeh.. both the Planar and Summicron are noted for their gorgeous OOF.. the Nokton isn't bad, but it's not quite the same.. but since it's a very subjective thing, the Nokton might appeal to you for that

the build quality of the Nokton is looked at the same way.. very good, but if you had the Nokton in one hand and a Planar or Summicron in the other, you'd be able to tell

you'd probably be very happy with the Nokton, especially with the extra $300 in your pocket.. but my final decision was to not go with the CV lens.. I still haven't decided between the Planar or Summicron, tho

[vincentbenoit]

Optical performance is just one criterion when it comes to choosing a lens; usability is important, too (ergonomics, handling, close focusing distance, etc). FWIW I was happy with the image quality of the 50/1.5 Nokton but I ended up selling it because it was too big for my taste (part of the viewfinder was obstructed by the lens) and I was missing a focusing tab. At the moment I'm trying to decide on a 28mm, I might well go for the Zeiss not because of its optical performance but because it has the shortest close focus distance (0.5m) of all M-mount 28mm lenses.
Cheers
Vincent

[FrankS]

Start with a $30 Russian J8 (50mm, f2) and go from there. Add an I-61LD (50mm f2.8) for $15 if you need greater sharpness.

[aizan]

the m-hexanon has noticeably cleaner oof discs and bokeh than the other three lenses. only thing it's missing is a focus tab, if you like them. i do, *sniff*.

[rover]

Konica

http://cgi.ebay.com/KONICA-50MM-F2-M...QQcmdZViewItem

I have no idea why I know where these things are.

[Nick R.]

I think the 50 Nokton is one of the best 50's going. Super sharp and inexpensive. It is big, though, and you should factor that into your decision. Also try and get a silver one. The black paint chips easily, at least on the one I had. One of the reasons I bought a Leica was so that I could get another one after selling my Bessa. ( How's that for rationalizing).

[peter_n]

I am following that 50 M-Hex in my watchlist too.

[Gabriel M.A.]

Listen to Frank. The Jupiter is a copy of the old Zeiss lenses. Unfortunately the quality "control" was a misnomer with the comrades, so you may get a great one or a bad one, depending on the roll of the dice. You may then want to explore the bokeh of it and make your next decision from there. A lot better than spending hundreds of $$ first.

[jja]

For about the same price as the Zeiss and its hood, one can get this Summicron:
http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-...?msg_id=00DiTQ

I've seen cheaper, but this one is chrome and almost new. Aizan, you say the Hexanon compares more than favorably with the Summicron in oof areas, and my curiosity is piqued. Have you done direct comparisons?

[kiev4a]

Originally Posted by gabrielma

Listen to Frank. The Jupiter is a copy of the old Zeiss lenses. Unfortunately the quality "control" was a misnomer with the comrades, so you may get a great one or a bad one, depending on the roll of the dice. You may then want to explore the bokeh of it and make your next decision from there. A lot better than spending hundreds of $$ first.

Actually, there seems to be less quality difference in the Jupiter 8s than any other FSU lens. (the Jupiter 3 is another story entirely -- at least in LTM)

[aizan]

nope, i haven't done any comparative tests. i never bothered to get any of the newer summicrons, i just got the original collapsible. before i bought my lenses, which include the m-hexanon (part of the kit) and f1.4 nikkor, i researched what people thought, and looked for pics on photosig, google, and other sites taken by each lens. the bokeh in the pics, including the ones i've taken, are consistent with "common knowledge".

[jja]

Thanks Aizan. I agree w/ your comment about the tab. I love the M-Hexanon, and I'd love it even more if it had a tab. Chris, this is something to think about.

[f/stopblues]

Alright, my attempt to narrow things down has had the opposite effect! That Hexanon looks nice. I put that one on my watch list too. What do you think it'll fetch if you had to guess? I think the sheer number of differences in Summicrons had me a little spooked. You all are right about the bokeh on the Nokton, also. <sigh> Back to square one!

[Peter Klein]

I've got quite a few 50s, and have tried more, so perhaps my experiences will be of some value. Bottom line is that you can hardly go wrong with most of the modern RF 50s. Even the older ones are quite fine stopped down to f/4 or 5.6 or narrower. That said, here are a few comments.

The 1980s and later 50/2 Summicrons (current, or the penultimate one with the tab, which has the same optics) are about as good as it gets. The current formula is pretty sharp even wide open:
http://users.2alpha.com/~pklein/curr...a_emphatic.htm

Stopped down a little, if you can hold the camera steady enough, you'll have all the detail you could ever get in 35mm. Web pics don't really show sharpness, but in these next two, you can see the individual granite grains on the original Provia slides:

http://users.2alpha.com/~pklein/cali...15HMooreBW.htm
http://users.2alpha.com/~pklein/cali...reeHandsUp.htm

The newer lenses are a little harsher and have a *slightly* more wiry bokeh than the older Summicrons. I think the trade-off is well worth it. The only other flaw the current formula 'cron is that it's prone to refllect a pinpoint highlight or light source somewhere else in the picture.

The older 'Crons are staggeringly good, too--just a little mellower than the current formula. I have a 50 DR Summicron (the "rigid" is the same formula). It has slightly less crisp edges than the latest formula at wider openings and away from the center. It's a little lower contrast. But the DR has an "it" quality that defines the "Leica look" to me. I can't quite define it, but I know it when I see it:

http://users.2alpha.com/~pklein/temp/25JoyceCraig.jpg (wide open)
http://gallery.leica-users.org/album225/37ThinkerBW (wide open)
http://gallery.leica-users.org/album225/01OldShedTree

The 50 Nokton is a decidedly "today" lens. It is astonishingly sharp even wide open, the trade-off being a harsh and wiry bokeh that can also emphasize the edges of out of focus highlights. In terms of giving a sharp, clear image when the lights are low, it beats out the old 50 Summilux all but dead-center, and even there, it's close. I bought one used for $260, and I have no regrets. I find the overall look and bokeh quite similar to the Leica 35/1.4 Summilux ASPH, and they make a good "matched pair" for shooting available light. Yes, the Leica is a bit better, but the difference is just noticeable with 400 ISO film at 8x10. Stopped down, the 50 Summicron is staggeringly good, whereas the Nokton is just very, very good. The Nokton is probably the best value for money in a high-speed 50mm lens. Some Nokton shots:

http://gallery.leica-users.org/Rachel-Scott/1_6231_01 (wide open)
http://gallery.leica-users.org/Rachel-Scott/3_6233_18 (probably f/8 or 11)
http://gallery.leica-users.org/Rachel-Scott/1_6231_36 (probably f/4 or 5.6)
http://users.2alpha.com/~pklein/lhsa2002/30ted.htm (wide open, 1/8 second)

When I travel, I take a 50 'cron with me if I'm mostly going to be outdoors. If I know I'm going to need f/1.5, I take the Nokton, and happily shoot it everywhere.

The 50 Planar: I've only handled one briefly and shot a couple of pictures. I was quite happy with the best shot. It was very pleasing, and the lens handled contrasty light very well: http://gallery.leica-users.org/Vanco...5/15TomMarilyn

The Jupiter-8: I have one that came with my 1962 Zorki-4. Mine is decent, but I don't know if it is an especially good one or not. At f/2 - f/4, it has a "retro" 1930s look that is very pleasing for people. It doesn't quite resolve individual hairs in a head-and shoulders portrait, but it doesn't do so in a beautiful way!

http://users.2alpha.com/~pklein/ (me, f/4, 1/30)
http://users.2alpha.com/~pklein/temp/16RabbitBoy.jpg (f/4.5, 1/60)

Stopped down more, it is a decent lens, but the Summicron beats it for both resolution and contrast. The J-8 needs a good hood, as it can exhibit "wash-out" flare easily. Also, its Sonnar design has a tendency to show OOF highlights as discs with a bright edge and a darker center, and can double up OOF lines (the notorious "ni-sen" bokeh). All Sonnar clones and derivatives do this to some extent. I used to have a 50/1.4 Nikkor, and I've seen the same thing in 50/1.4 Canon shots.

I'd say that the latter Japanese Sonnar deriviatives are objectively better lenses than my Jupiter-8, but the J-8 is a really good "people" lens. The gentle smoothing of skin texture and detail in facial lines is often very nice. The problem with many Soviet lenses is that they just don't focus right on a Leica. Either they are correct close-up or at infinity, but not both. The two J-8 shots above were taken on a Zorki, not a Leica--my J-8 is "off" on my Leica M bodies. That's my experience, your mileage may vary.

I have an Industar-61 LD which doesn't focus correctly on *either* my Leica or my Zorki. But I'm sufficiently impressed with things I've (accidentally) gotten in focus that I'm probably going to pick up another one or two until I find one I can use. It is a very sharp, contrasty lens.

If I could have only one lens, it would probably be a tabbed 50/2 Summicron. Oh yeah, if money was no object, I would have a 50/1.4 Leica Summilux ASPH, but money is an object, so. . .

Hope all this is useful. Note that I've posted f-stops etc. when I remember what they were. If I didn't say, I don't remember.

--Peter

[Huck Finn]

What do you get for your extra dollars for the Zeiss? Reportedly, a higher standard of quality control. and the ability to close focus down to 27 inches as opposed to about 3 feet for the Nokton. Others have already covered the optical differences. Is the faster speed of the Nokton worth it? Popular photography reported that its maximum aperture measured at f/1.62, not f/1.5, so it's only about half a stop upgrade from the f/2's. Or was the PP measurement an example of sample variation & loose QC?

I got a current version Summicron for $600 on ebay & have seen them for slightly less. The Hexanon sold/sells for $500 new, so used it should be roughly the same price as the Nokton.

[nksyoon]

Re the Hexanon 50, I got mine mint for $255 on the auction site, so don't jump on one that's too expensive.

I also got a new in box Hexanon 35/2 for abt $315 at a local camera fair, but that's another story.

[peter_n]

Wow. Those are excellent prices. There seem to be more Hexanons available in Europe than over here. The 50 on eBay is currently around $250 with 3 days left.

[nksyoon]

My Hexanon 50 came from a US seller, so there are some out there.

[FrankS]

Peter K, thank you for your excellent descriptions of various lenses!

[dcsang]

Originally Posted by FrankS

Peter K, thank you for your excellent descriptions of various lenses!

I concur.. it was a joy to read those descriptions Peter !!

And.. it makes me extremely excited as I'm awaiting delivery of a tabbed 50mm Summicron.

Cheers
Dave

[Peter Klein]

Glad to help, Frank and Dave.

Dave, you are in for a treat when your tabbed 'Cron arrives. As I said, if I could only have one lens, that would be it.

--Peter