GW690 gas

[randomm]

Help me decide.

I have a severe case of GW690 gas. What I have been more recently looking for is a reliable medium format camera that is portable and also hopefully fully manual, or if not at least very robust. I have a Rolleiflex 2.8E and a Moskva-5 which fit the bill to a point, and the Moskva seems to be my walk around MF camera at the moment as I dare not take the Rollei into the snow and hail with me.

There's nothing much wrong with my Moskva. The RF is pretty much aligned (there's 2cm error at closest focus distance between the lens scale and the RF, have not checked with ground glass yet), speeds are sound and seem healthy judging from results etc. The biggest problem with it is that its a bit slow to use (although pre-setting shutter, aperture etc does enable it to be a street shooter of sorts). If only it had a combined RF / VF window, ah...

I would love to be able to get a Makina 67 or a Fuji GF670, but both are out of my price range at the moment. Also, I have read worrying things about them both (battery depletion with the Fuji and stability of the struts and serviceability of the Makina), but that's pretty much beside the point as I can't currently afford either.

I've been looking at the (optical) quality of photographs taken with the GW690 on flickr and have been blown away by it. On my short list I have also had the Certo Six, Balda Super Baldax and the Iskra 1. First two seem to be pretty rare and at least Jurgen or Certo6 fame suggests that all Certo Sixes need their prisms re-silvered, which is putting me off, especially as I live in Europe and would rather not ship anything to the US for service.

So, a quick & fun poll for the day!

Edit: noticed a typo in poll options, sorry! Don't know how to edit those.

[PMCC]

GW690 is a worthy camera with good glass, but portability is not its strongest suit. It also is odd man out among your other choices, as it is 6x9 whilst your other wants are 6x6 and 6x7 (save the Moskva-5 you already have). But get the GW690 (or 670) if you're jonesing for one, why not? They're cheap as chips and built like Russian tanks -- neither fine nor elegant, but big, loud and well nigh unstoppable. The others on your list are cranky antiques by comparison, with all the charms implied thereby.

[randomm]

Originally Posted by PMCC

GW690 is a worthy camera with good glass, but portability is not its strongest suit. It also is odd man out among your other choices, as it is 6x9 whilst your other wants are 6x6 and 6x7 (save the Moskva-5 you already have). But get the GW690 (or 670) if you're jonesing for one, why not? They're cheap as chips and built like Russian tanks -- neither fine nor elegant, but loud and well nigh unstoppable. The others on your list are cranky antiques by comparison, with all the charms implied thereby.

Thanks for your opinion. Yeah, the format is not the same. I'm mostly a 3/2 or 4/3 aspect ratio kinda guy, but for portability's sake I've been willing to entertain the idea of a 6x7 camera, the GW670 just isn't at all smaller or lighter, so thus may as well get the real deal. Also, seems that the prices for the 690 models are lower than for the more rare 670 or 680 models.

Folders are nice. My Moskva folds into my winter coat's pocket nicely, but at the end of the day it does not feel particularly robust. The GW690 looks very large from what I've seen, which I'm not 100% sure how I feel about.

Have I missed anything obvious, from the list I mean? Flipping mirror is a no-no, leaf shutter much preferred. Do not like the vertical composition of the Bronica RF645, and also the negative is too small for my liking (and my slightly archaic flatbed scanner, I only have a dedicated film scanner for 135 film).

[ChrisN]

Perhaps a GSW690 - the wide FOV gives you a (cropped) panorama option, and as they say, you can (sometimes) zoom with your feet!

[Maiku]

The Fuji 690 is an amazing camera. No battery required. Great glass. The down side is the size, but remarkably it is pretty light weight. It is big, but no more cumbersome than a Nikon F5 with a zoom lens. Why not try one? If it doesn`t suit you then sell it. People are always looking for one.

[jbielikowski]

you know, its big... really big. I was about to buy but this photo made me think twice: http://www.flickr.com/photos/blueone33/4067962830/

[NLewis]

I would not call the GW690 a "portable" camera. It is more portable than a Pentax 67 or a Mamiya RZ67, but it is still a big item. I wouldn't compare it to 6x7 folders like the GF670. It is more like a Mamiya 7 with a fixed lens. The GW690 is easily handholdable, while 6x7 SLR designs are only barely handholdable, for example picking it up off the table for some quick shots in the studio. The GW690 is also quieter than MF SLRs, since you don't have that crashing mirror or focal-plane shutter. Like any 6x7, the lenses are slow, and DOF is shallow. Remember, f/8 on 35mm has the same DOF as f/16 on 6x7 or 6x9. So, if you want deep DOF, you are probably going to need a tripod, especially since it is somewhat silly to shoot MF and then blow it with camera shake. Depending on your standards in these matters, you might want to shoot one stop faster when handheld than you would with 35mm, in other words, at the literal focal length -- around 1/125th using the 90mm lens of the GW690.

I have a GW690. Despite its similarity to a Leica M camera, you don't really use it the same way. You only get eight shots per roll, which tends to rule out a lot of "candid" shooting unless you are willing to go through a lot of film. I use it more for landscape-y or cityscape-y situations and posed people shots -- as you would use a Mamiya 7 for example.

If you want a walkaround MF camera, I'd just use your Rolleiflex. Very nice camera. If you still have GW690 lust, then just get one and try it out. Maybe it will be just your thing.

[randomm]

Originally Posted by jbielikowski

you know, its big... really big. I was about to buy but this photo made me think twice: http://www.flickr.com/photos/blueone33/4067962830/

Yeah, saw that earlier. It does look big, but at the end of the day it cannot be that much bigger than my Moskva-5 folded out. Hopefully slightly easier to focus, and luckily I have big hands.

[ruby.monkey]

Can't imagine why anyone in his right mind would want one of these behemoths.

[KenR]

I have a GSW690 that I brought to a NYC meetup a month ago. Great lens but a kind of slow at f/5.6. Definately heavy, but I took mine hiking in California last year and only had my wife carry it on the way home a couple of times. Changing the film every 8 exposures is more of a limit now that there is no more 220 B&W.

[Matus]

Originally Posted by jbielikowski

you know, its big... really big. I was about to buy but this photo made me think twice: http://www.flickr.com/photos/blueone33/4067962830/

Reminds me of this comparison from flickr:
Bronica RF645 vs Contax 645:


One of the reasons I finally got Mamiya 6 instead of Contax 645 (which I would still love to get - that 80/2 lens is amazing ... ).

[PMCC]

Originally Posted by KenR

I have a GSW690 that I brought to a NYC meetup a month ago. Great lens but a kind of slow at f/5.6. Definately heavy, but I took mine hiking in California last year and only had my wife carry it on the way home a couple of times. Changing the film every 8 exposures is more of a limit now that there is no more 220 B&W.

Ditto, portability not a big selling point, especially for use as a daily walk around camera, absent services of a sherpa/wife. As to number of shots, the 6x7 version does get 10 exposures, worth considering if the format/focal length combo isn't a show stopper.

Now that I think about it, I'm wondering why OP doesn't just use his Rollei 2.8E, with a suitably protective bag to protect from the elements. A much easier carry. No camera on OP's list would be a good candidate for shooting in actual rain and hail -- all would need to be stowed safely away during filthy weather. Otherwise, Rolleis are as robust as anything mentioned, i.e., neither made of sugar nor storm-proof. Few MF cameras are.

[Chris Bail]

Originally Posted by randomm

Yeah, saw that earlier. It does look big, but at the end of the day it cannot be that much bigger than my Moskva-5 folded out. Hopefully slightly easier to focus, and luckily I have big hands.

The picture flickr picture referenced is one of mine (You'll also see it as my avatar here)...It's definitely bigger than my Moskva 5, but not as heavy, maybe... It was nice to use, but I like the GS645 a bit better. Sold the 690 and kept the 645 and Moskva 5.

I'd do a size comparison for you, but I sold it in November...it wasn't getting used enough to justify keeping it.

[Landshark]

With regards to the photo referenced, It's a shortish lens for the format and shot at a pretty lose distance, I think there's some exaggeration of the cameras size

[Chris Bail]

Originally Posted by Landshark

With regards to the photo referenced, It's a shortish lens for the format and shot at a pretty lose distance, I think there's some exaggeration of the cameras size

Perhaps...It was shot at the absolute minumum focus distance in the mirror...I had to sway to and fro to get it focused.

[ruby.monkey]

Originally Posted by Matus

Reminds me of this comparison from flickr:
Bronica RF645 vs Contax 645:


One of the reasons I finally got Mamiya 6 instead of Contax 645 (which I would still love to get - that 80/2 lens is amazing ... ).

What that photo doesn't show is how easy it is to carry these 645 SLRs on a shoulder strap - they hang down vertically, stay well out of the way, and are eminently portable.

Get the Contax.

[slungu]

Well, having a Agfa Record for 6x9 I liked the size of the neg, the aspect ratio but wanted something with a coupled rangefinder, so I just got myself a GW690 that arrived yesterday. It is big and it is 1.3kg, and mine is not in such a great shape cosmetically, but I hope it will do the job. So the advice would be : go for it ( or the gsw690 if you want wider, but then other options like the chinese panoramic ones could come into play, since focusing should be less important )

[Arvay]

Just get it. I can't stop admiring its quality-of-image/simplicity/price ratio (I've got II mod))

[sevo]

Originally Posted by ruby.monkey

What that photo doesn't show is how easy it is to carry these 645 SLRs on a shoulder strap - they hang down vertically, stay well out of the way, and are eminently portable.

Right. And it shows that we are bad at estimating volume if the items to compare are not aligned along the same (long) edge. In real, the Bronica is close to 2/3 of a M645pro (which should be the same size as the Contax) with f/2.8 lens. The f/2 lens is no fair comparison by the way - the Bronica does not even have f/2.8, and it makes up for almost half the weight and size of that Contax combination...

[noah b]

The 690 and 670 fuji rangefinders are great cameras, but takes some getting used to lugging around that big plastic box. I love the fact you can stop down to f/32 so you can compete with 4x5 cameras. I've owned all three models of the 690 and the III version is by far the best. Currently I'm using the GW670II and I love it. Only wish they would've put the 65mm lens on it. Has anyone had experience with the fuji 645 cameras? I'm thinking about investing in one for nighttime portraits.

[randomm]

Thank you for all your comments. Just to stir things a bit further, what do people think about GS645 (the original with bellows and 75mm f3.4 lens). I've read that its a finicky camera with bellows issues, but haven't really found anything about the optics and how it is in use. I wonder if that could be a compromise with regards size / weight of the the GW690.

Edit: of course I'd have to forget about my aversion to the vertical composition then though, but lets say I would

[cosmonaut]

Life is short. If you can afford it, get it.

[Chris Bail]

Originally Posted by randomm

Thank you for all your comments. Just to stir things a bit further, what do people think about GS645 (the original with bellows and 75mm f3.4 lens). I've read that its a finicky camera with bellows issues, but haven't really found anything about the optics and how it is in use. I wonder if that could be a compromise with regards size / weight of the the GW690.

Edit: of course I'd have to forget about my aversion to the vertical composition then though, but lets say I would

I have one of those now. It is a hell of a lot smaller, and I think it's quite nice to use. It is finicky, so make sure you buy from a place with a nice return policy...mine arrived with a loose semi-silvered mirror and had to be fixed right away.

It is working quite well now, and is great fun to use. Film changing is just as easy as it is on the GW690III.

[randomm]

Originally Posted by Chris Bail

I have one of those now. It is a hell of a lot smaller, and I think it's quite nice to use. It is finicky, so make sure you buy from a place with a nice return policy...mine arrived with a loose semi-silvered mirror and had to be fixed right away.

It is working quite well now, and is great fun to use. Film changing is just as easy as it is on the GW690III.

That's good to know. The seller says that its still got the original bellows and works as it should, so I'm a bit concerned, but then again he does offer a return and refund so lets see what happens.

Do you have any photos online shot with it? And what about those rules of always cocking the shutter and focusing lens at infinity before closing the bellows, is that really the case?

[kuzano]

Three GS645 chronic fail points:
1) Bellows-synthetic bellow (the camera was only produced one year because of this.) The bellows is not patchable, it develops pinhole light leaks everywhere, pretty much over a short period of time. Those that still have a working bellows have not been used much.
2) Shutter linkage weak and failure prone, which is why the rules on the cocking and setting to infinity. Not doing so breaks the linkage.
3) Shutter hangs in extreme cold weather. If you are a winter shooter there is no cure for this problem.

Get the "crash bar" non folding GS645S... wonderful alternative to the folding model.

I will only buy an original GS645 (regardless of how good it's supposed to be) for no more than $200-225. I will then send it to Frank Marshman and for about $200 (last one I did) will have it serviced, add his shutter linkage fix, and a new bellows. Then I have a decent folding GS645. I must still follow the rules on the cocking and infinity setting upon closure.

I will also still have the cold weather shutter problem, but I don't go out in the cold with a camera.

I've had four of these, and after the first one, which I paid too much for, because "it was in excellent condition", I bought the next three with known bad bellows for $200.00 and as soon as I got them, they were immediately mailed to Frank.

I now shoot the big 690 models. Most of this thread has given the Big Fuji's heat for the size and weight. What a bunch of garbage. They are still smaller than large format 4X5 which the next routine larger size.

And for me the 645 doesn't cut it when you want to print really big.

Further more on the weight and size, the GW and GSW models are really no heavier and bigger than the professional full frame DSLR's.

And for the "why would you want one of those behemoth" comment. I use them to outshoot anything you are using that's smaller. If you're shooting large format, then say so, because you can't get anything like the image quality of the Fuji 6X9 EBC lens with any 35mm you want to throw up against it.

Lastly, and I have personal experience with this as well, if you are still willing to settle for 645 on your way to big negatives, consider the GA645Zi. This camera adds Autofocus, with manual override, Zoom from 55-90, Excellent focus and superb Image Quality. It outshoots any of the GS models, and is only slightly bigger than the folder you are considering. I've had two of the GA645Zi models alongside Mamiya's and Bronica's. If I was still happy at all with 645, I would shoot the GA645Zi over all other 6X4.5 format camera's.