OMG I won another one: Pen 20/3.5

[uhoh7]

This one came as kind of a shock. I've watched a few of these go for big money--well around 400. Which of course is crazy.

I happened to catch this auction and as I do now, just dropped my high bid with Gixen: 235USD.

take a look:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...EOIBSA:US:1123

now I just have to find a 60/1.5 and I'm done! (i have the 25/2.8 and 42/1.2)

there really are still deals to be had at the evil place. Especially this time of year.

[flip]

You trying to get a complete set? Now is the time.

After going through a pen collecting phase, I must say that I largely stick to the macro, pancake, 60 and 38. The long glass isn't bad either; just godawful heavy. The macro is my fave, though. Being as you have the 20, you might try tracking down a reverse ring. It is a nice little tool with that lens.

[kosta_g]

wow! I was always tempted by this camera set but just couldn't bring myself to invest in another mount/type

[rxmd]

Don't announce too loudly that you're using a sniper, as that is against eBay's terms of service; if the guy who came second in line reads this thread and complains, you could lose your item and/or your eBay account.

[n5jrn]

Originally Posted by rxmd

Don't announce too loudly that you're using a sniper, as that is against eBay's terms of service; if the guy who came second in line reads this thread and complains, you could lose your item and/or your eBay account.

Really? Since when? Where in the eBay ToS is sniping banned?

[rxmd]

Originally Posted by n5jrn

Really? Since when? Where in the eBay ToS is sniping banned?

On eBay Germany, which is where my account is, it's in the user agreement, § 10, paragraph 9: "Die Abgabe von Geboten mittels automatisierter Datenverarbeitungsprozesse (z.B. so genannten "Sniper"-Programmen) ist verboten.", in English "Bidding through automated computing processes (e.g. so-called 'sniper' programs) is forbidden." I don't know about eBay USA, maybe it's OK there.

[loneranger]

So how do you use a sniper program? Sound pretty cool

[n5jrn]

Originally Posted by rxmd

I don't know about eBay USA, maybe it's OK there.

I have never seen anything related to sniping in the eBay USA user agreement, snipe bidding is my preferred bidding strategy, and no seller has ever disputed one of my winning snipe bids.

Oddly, Wikipedia claims that a Berlin court invalidated eBay Germany's sniping ban in 2002. Perhaps that only applies to Berlin residents.

[rxmd]

Originally Posted by loneranger

So how do you use a sniper program? Sound pretty cool

It's less cool than it sounds. It's a program where you specify a bid and it places the bid in the last seconds. It allows you to get the upper hand on gamblers who bid incrementally until their bid wins, but that's it.

Since nowadays everybody and their mother uses a sniper, it's back to square one, the guy who put the biggest bid into their sniper wins.

The one advantage is that it is marginally stronger than eBay itself in forcing you to think in advance how much something is worth to you. Therefore it somewhat encourages more rational bidding behaviour.

[rxmd]

Originally Posted by n5jrn

Oddly, Wikipedia claims that a Berlin court invalidated eBay Germany's sniping ban in 2002. Perhaps that only applies to Berlin residents.

Wikipedia claims a lot of things; the Berlin lawsuit was about when eBay sued a company selling sniping software, not about eBay's terms of service.

[btgc]

Originally Posted by rxmd

It allows you to get the upper hand on gamblers who bid incrementally until their bid wins, but that's it.

Incerementalists aren't serious bidders. Bidding incrementally is like masturbating but probably ebay just wants people behave like that. NOT healthy behaviour. Incremental bidders sit at screens watching auction page and enjoying periods when they are top bidders and if in last minute they decide to raise bid it's too late. Bidders who really want stuff and have put their bids already (regular or sniped) at same time are out of room taking pictures or developing film. This IS healthy behaviour.

Higher bid means more chances to win, as easy as it sounds. Nothing else.

[uhoh7]

Gixen is a godsend. You just don't watch at all. Saves a fortune too, because you are oblivious to bidding drama. You just figure, what is the most I'll pay? Enter that and forget it. Get an email later which tells the outcome.

In this case I thought, I don't need it. I have a cv21 and an nFD 20. So I punched in 235--NO WAY I thought, I will never win.

What is even better, you can change your mind up until the last few secs, in either direction. It keeps the prices down also since there is no running up the price beforehand. I can see why ebay hates it.

But I can't see why anyone else would

But more importantly, THE LENS!!! Will be very interesting to see the SA of this sweetie. The 25 I find super sharp in the centers. Sharper than my summicron 50 v3. No kidding. But the corners smear on my first gen nex sensor:



now, how sharp is that center?
100

Not a total surprise, since the 25/2.8 tested as the sharpest of all Pens, including the macro, though I'm sure the macro is way sharper close. One more at 2.8

maybe I should not say "smear", since it is possible to get sharp corners, just not at the same time as the center, hehe.

The 42/1.2 is another story. I have four 1.2s--well one is 1.1 (cv). The pen kills them all in sharpness wide open. You can see samples here in another thread, Ok here's one:

But that's not all. The thing is totally sick at f/8. No SA, very sharp.

That lens is the most under-rated superspeed ever. It's also by far the smallest and lightest.

I'm pretty sure this 20 will smear on my old 5, but maybe the nex 7 will be a bit better--the 5n certainly is.

[btgc]

Originally Posted by uhoh7

It keeps the prices down also since there is no running up the price beforehand. I can see why ebay hates it.

Can't agree to this. Organized bidders can step out of bidwars and hold their bids until, say, last 5 minutes. I mean regular bids through ebay interface. Then they start to increase bids and if all are bidding with small increment, seller will get much lower final price than if bidders use sniping tools as latter allow to bid very fast....which results in higher prices. One can double and triple price in very last seconds - now do that with slow ebay interface. Got it? Ebay should finance sniper tools not what they are doing now.

Ebay wants bidders to cultivate wrong behaviour model. That's all about it.

[rxmd]

Originally Posted by btgc

Can't agree to this. Organized bidders can step out of bidwars and hold their bids until, say, last 5 minutes. I mean regular bids through ebay interface. Then they start to increase bids and if all are bidding with small increment, seller will get much lower final price than if bidders use sniping tools as latter allow to bid very fast....which results in higher prices. One can double and triple price in very last seconds - now do that with slow ebay interface.

You can double the price in the slow ebay interface, too; after all eBay is not like a regular auction where you have to call a price and then that becomes the price of the item. You can have a $1 item and call a price, and it becomes the price of the item and then some only when someone else calls a higher price. All it takes is two guys who want the item at any cost, and then you can watch it go for ridiculous amounts well before the auction ends.

It's irrelevant *when* the bidwar takes place. All the sniper achieves is to make sure that the bidwar takes place during the last 5 seconds.

That takes the adrenaline out of the bidwar, because as a bidder you never get to see the moment that your bid begins to lose. In other words, it discourages gamblers who, after seing their earlier $200 bid being too low, spontaneously decide that they want the item at any cost and bid $500. With the sniper, you can bid what the item is worth, and if it goes to somebody else anyway you can be sure it's because it's worth more to them, not because there is some adrenaline junkie who decides to update their bid in the heat of the moment. That's all the sniper effectively does, it encourages more rational value decisions.

For eBay, this is bad. Ebay wants people to be irrational. Adrenaline junkies drive prices up, and eBay wants high prices. If buyers were rational and decided early on "well, this lens is worth $X" and put that into the system and then it goes to the guy with the highest X, eBay would just get the commission on X. But if you have a guy who wants the item for X, then sees someone else bid X+Y and gets overpowered by adrenaline and decides to bid X+Y+Z, then thanks to the heat of the moment eBay gets an extra commission on the extra adrenaline markup. The sniper takes the adrenaline out of it and hence costs eBay money, which is why they don't like snipers.

[btgc]

Originally Posted by rxmd

The sniper takes the adrenaline out of it and hence costs eBay money, which is why they don't like snipers.

After using sniping tools for a while, I have won auctions by putting my regular bid, say, day before end and forgetting it. Sure, there were auctions where someone outbid me but I do not care, that were price I were ready to pay, and no more. If people would act same way, prices wouldn't skyrocket for common things one can get every other day - no matter how bid is made.

I get your point, adrenaline and such, but it takes some time after which people don't engage into bidwars. If I win - OK, if not - well, I can't get everything.

[rxmd]

Originally Posted by btgc

After using sniping tools for a while, I have won auctions by putting my regular bid, say, day before end and forgetting it. Sure, there were auctions where someone outbid me but I do not care, that were price I were ready to pay, and no more. If people would act same way, prices wouldn't skyrocket for common things one can get every other day - no matter how bid is made.

I get your point, adrenaline and such, but it takes some time after which people don't engage into bidwars. If I win - OK, if not - well, I can't get everything.

If all people were like that, a lot of things would stay a lot cheaper

[btgc]

Originally Posted by rxmd

If all people were like that, a lot of things would stay a lot cheaper

And that would cause new and new recessions

[Paul T.]

Originally Posted by rxmd

That takes the adrenaline out of the bidwar, because as a bidder you never get to see the moment that your bid begins to lose. In other words, it discourages gamblers who, after seing their earlier $200 bid being too low, spontaneously decide that they want the item at any cost and bid $500. With the sniper, you can bid what the item is worth, and if it goes to somebody else anyway you can be sure it's because it's worth more to them, not because there is some adrenaline junkie who decides to update their bid in the heat of the moment. That's all the sniper effectively does, it encourages more rational value decisions.

For eBay, this is bad. Ebay wants people to be irrational...The sniper takes the adrenaline out of it and hence costs eBay money, which is why they don't like snipers.

I think that's absolutely true.
As a seller, I hate sniping because if the item's price is low 6 hours before, I have no idea as to whether it will fetch a decent price - and that makes me insecure!
But with sniping, I can leave a bid and not worry. It encourages a buyer to leave bids on several auctions until they get the item for a reasonable price, rather than stake everything on one auction. It lowers your investment of commitment and makes you more rational, which is an entirely good thing.

[Rayt]

I should try one of those sniping programs. It seems the auctions I am interested in tend to end in the middle of the night here in Asia.

[flip]

The 20 didn't knock me out, unfortunately. That 25/2.8 looks nice! The 25/4 I have is fine and small and it looks like I should pop it on the nex tomorrow. ;-P

Actually, I drew the line on my pen obsession with the fast normal lenses, kind of in deference to the pen aesthetic. There was a point at which another camera (and its fast lenses) was the better tool for me.

[shadowfox]

In my view, Pen F lenses should be used on a Pen-F camera.
It has a different characteristics than when you put it in front of a digital sensor.

I've never used the 20/3.5, the widest angle I have is the 25/2.8 and it's a darn good lens as said above.

[uhoh7]

Originally Posted by shadowfox

In my view, Pen F lenses should be used on a Pen-F camera.
It has a different characteristics than when you put it in front of a digital sensor.

How many Pen-F owners are shooting their lenses often? A few I'm sure, but far more have the camera in a case or box which they admire from time to time. The glass was made to shoot and should go to who will use it.

I have alot of old glass and recently aquired a contax IIIa with a sonnar. What shocked me was how similar the lens rendered with the nex and the contax. The biggest difference by far was simply the film grain. But for wides with retro focus there are sensor issues on the edges which the M9 addreses better than anything else right now.

Are you also uncomfortable with M9 users shooting glass from the 50s?

[flip]

Originally Posted by shadowfox

In my view, Pen F lenses should be used on a Pen-F camera.
It has a different characteristics than when you put it in front of a digital sensor.

I've never used the 20/3.5, the widest angle I have is the 25/2.8 and it's a darn good lens as said above.

I'll bite.
I agree with you. Certainly, you'd have to like long focal lengths, given the bias of the pen lineup.
However, the pen macro lens has to be one of the best options for its purpose in digital. And you have a bit more likelihood of getting the shot you want than the lens on it's native camera (due to potential shake).

[uhoh7]

I should find a Pen-F body, for fun. What's the best value?

How about film, developing and scanning?

Regards to digital: I have more or less 50 manual focus lenses--about 20 are RF or Pen. I use them all with my aps-c nex-5. Aps-c is very close to the pen frame. There are 2 serious issues: CA with longer lenses--varies tremedously and goes away by 5.6 in nearly all cases; and corner smearing and/or colorshift with retro focusing lenses like the cv skopars.

My best 20 is an nFD 20/2.8, which is fantastic. My cv 21/4 is pretty darn nice, but shifts colors--and I suspect smears a bit in the corners. It will be very interesting to see how the Pen 20 performs.

Conrner smearing itself can come from two reasons: the sensor can't deal with the sideways light; or, the lens itself has spherical aberation; or a possible combination of both.

I now wonder if the rear element diameter also plays a roll. The pen wides have very small rear elements---my 25 is smaller the canon or cv mentioned above and shows strong SA: but neverthless I love it:


dang, need to bring that exposure up--sry
Beyond the above mentioned issues the difference between digital and film is not greater than the difference between velvia 50 and ilford 3200, and with the Pen, one could argue its less than with 35mm glass if youare using aps-c, since ther is a 1.5x crop.

I'm even more convinced of this now that I am shooting film again with my colordial. And what 90% of digital users do not realise is that ultimately, film still reigns supreme in optical performance starting at 645. Well, perhaps that new 10k MF camera can compete.

best to all

[shadowfox]

Originally Posted by uhoh7

How many Pen-F owners are shooting their lenses often? A few I'm sure, but far more have the camera in a case or box which they admire from time to time. The glass was made to shoot and should go to who will use it.

I have alot of old glass and recently aquired a contax IIIa with a sonnar. What shocked me was how similar the lens rendered with the nex and the contax. The biggest difference by far was simply the film grain. But for wides with retro focus there are sensor issues on the edges which the M9 addreses better than anything else right now.

Are you also uncomfortable with M9 users shooting glass from the 50s?

It's just a comment reflecting my preference.
What does it have to do with being comfortable or not?

I put old glasses on my digital cameras also, in fact that's *how* I know there's a difference for certain lenses.

There is nothing to be defensive about. You're among friends.