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Hardware / Computers / Drives / etc This is the place to discuss the hardware to keep your digital pics more than just memories.

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Old 09-17-2011   #26
Richard G
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Mike Johnson covered demise in a good post on his Online Photographer site. For a few good pictures not to be thrown out with thousands of rubbish ones you will have to edit out a small cache before you die.
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Old 09-17-2011   #27
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Well I'm keeping all mine ... so the will have to take a few trips to the dump when I go
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Old 09-17-2011   #28
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Much of the 3.6TB (Aperture Vault 463GB) is video. If I had more time I could edit that down. Of course, this is like items in my garage.. what is the point in keeping it if you don't view it with some regularity? I actually know the answer to that. When my wife wants to see the kids when they were just learning to walk, talk, play sports.. or fill-in the blanks, I want to be able to show her what she wants to see. In other words, I would like to stay married. I wonder if my father has any old 8mm and if he does, what condition and how would he view them? Somewhat the same problem.

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Old 09-17-2011   #29
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My 8mm, Super-8, and Sound Super-8 films are in great condition. I found an Ektasound movie projector at a yard sale for $1, and an 8mm projector at a thrift store for $10. My original projectors wore out, a Eumig/Fairchild 711R and a K-Mart Dual 8.
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Old 09-17-2011   #30
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Finding anything among 3Tb of data, even if you could look through it, will be the daunting task of your heirs. If it's too much for you to edit down, they might just toss the whole thing.
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Old 09-17-2011   #31
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My Kodachromes and Cibachromes from the sixtys still look good.
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Old 09-18-2011   #32
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To the people who keep insisting 'shoot film' I wish you luck.

I've done a couple of archival scanning jobs from negatives dating back to the early part of last century and some of them were serioulsy on their last legs. Admittedly storage had been pretty casual but a negative is not a permanent storage solution for a photographic image. It may be so within your own life time and that may be enough for you ... but for future generations film is just a material on it's way back to mother earth!
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Old 09-18-2011   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave lackey View Post
Oh, CD's and DVD's not reliable? How about confirmation on that rumor?

I can't say anything definite but... I've got a lot of burned CD's from perhaps 5 or 6 years ago (not photos however).
Today half of them are unreadable or when opened have no data on them even though looking at the CD you can see something has been burned. They used to work when I opened them so I'm pretty upset that I cannot access the files any longer. The only explanation I can give to why no data can be read from them is either time or the technology is outdated (though they are just simple CD's so i'd say it's unlikely).

But on the other hand, other CD's work. Music CD's always seem to work, so too do movie DVD's that I've bought years ago.

So I can't explain it, but the fact is that something has happened to those CD's that were sitting safely in storage and what was on them is lost forever. There's always a risk of storing anything. The best bet is backing up in multiple locations.
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Old 09-18-2011   #34
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Nike, Adidas and a couple others....

Originally, running shoes came in them. Now they hold hundreds and hundreds of my negs and transparencies. Nothing digital matches their longevity.
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Old 09-18-2011   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith View Post
To the people who keep insisting 'shoot film' I wish you luck.

I've done a couple of archival scanning jobs from negatives dating back to the early part of last century and some of them were serioulsy on their last legs. Admittedly storage had been pretty casual but a negative is not a permanent storage solution for a photographic image. It may be so within your own life time and that may be enough for you ... but for future generations film is just a material on it's way back to mother earth!
Keith,
How do you think would have printed pictures saved on a hard drive of the early part of the 20th century kept in a pretty casual storage?

Film is a chemical support and as such has a limited lifetime, even if well taken care of, but this lifetime can be very long for B+W material.
It is also more sensitive to physical destruction since you have one original.
On the other hand, digital support is very sensitive, and if not properly backed up every few years, the data will eventually disappear. And it's not a slow fading. Without full continuity in the back up process, you loose everything. think about it: If I die and my kids are at a point where they are not aware of the problem, and do not backup properly my pictures. Even if they suddenly re-value the digital family archive ten years after, it's most likely to be too late.
I remember that what brought me to photography was a couple of shoe boxes with hundred of family pictures, some dating form the late 18th century, that was just put in a closet at my grandmother's for decades.
Try that with a HD/CD/DVD...
Digital and chemical (B+W) can both be maintained for long enough. The dangers are different that can harm them and both present some advantages over the other.
If I was a pro photographer backed with a large agency that I know will take care of my pictures, I would think digital is the best. For my small home operation, meanwhile, I choose film, and invest a great deal in trying to keep them safe.
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Old 09-18-2011   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neare View Post
I can't say anything definite but... I've got a lot of burned CD's from perhaps 5 or 6 years ago (not photos however).
Today half of them are unreadable or when opened have no data on them even though looking at the CD you can see something has been burned. They used to work when I opened them so I'm pretty upset that I cannot access the files any longer. The only explanation I can give to why no data can be read from them is either time or the technology is outdated (though they are just simple CD's so i'd say it's unlikely).

But on the other hand, other CD's work. Music CD's always seem to work, so too do movie DVD's that I've bought years ago.

So I can't explain it, but the fact is that something has happened to those CD's that were sitting safely in storage and what was on them is lost forever. There's always a risk of storing anything. The best bet is backing up in multiple locations.
Ari,

Music CD's, movie DVD's sold to you are printed in a press. Unless they are heavily scratched, you can read them because the metal supporting the data is fine in the plastic.

On the contrary, when you burn a blank CD, you use a laser to alter a support that is sensitive to light, and remains so after the burning. That is why we are advised to store optical data in the dark, and apparently that's also why you better buy good media.
Exposure to light slowly alters the metal layer in a burnt CD, and the sensivity of the support may even make it degrade (although slower) in darkness.
If you want to use safely CD/DVD technology, buy the best support possible (it was TY a couple of years ago), burn at least TWO copies. write down the date of burning, and I suggest reburning new copies every five years or so. Of course, dark storage...
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Old 09-18-2011   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanmich View Post
Keith,
How do you think would have printed pictures saved on a hard drive of the early part of the 20th century kept in a pretty casual storage?

Film is a chemical support and as such has a limited lifetime, even if well taken care of, but this lifetime can be very long for B+W material.
It is also more sensitive to physical destruction since you have one original.
On the other hand, digital support is very sensitive, and if not properly backed up every few years, the data will eventually disappear. And it's not a slow fading. Without full continuity in the back up process, you loose everything. think about it: If I die and my kids are at a point where they are not aware of the problem, and do not backup properly my pictures. Even if they suddenly re-value the digital family archive ten years after, it's most likely to be too late.
I remember that what brought me to photography was a couple of shoe boxes with hundred of family pictures, some dating form the late 18th century, that was just put in a closet at my grandmother's for decades.
Try that with a HD/CD/DVD...
Digital and chemical (B+W) can both be maintained for long enough. The dangers are different that can harm them and both present some advantages over the other.
If I was a pro photographer backed with a large agency that I know will take care of my pictures, I would think digital is the best. For my small home operation, meanwhile, I choose film, and invest a great deal in trying to keep them safe.

I'm not saying film isn't effective to a point but by the laws of nature it has to degrade over time ... whatever that time period may be I'm not qualified to say.

A digital file can be duplicated when necessary and transfered to fresh storage media ... but of course here I'm making the assumption that the technology to do so and the ability to read the file remains accessible in the future ... which is pretty optomistic I guess.

There is no real solution I suspect and like film the jpeg, tif or whatever may be long gone and we'll be left wondering what what we should have done!
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Old 09-18-2011   #38
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From someone who really knows: http://leica-users.org/NYLUG-2011.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_R...uter_scientist)

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Old 09-19-2011   #39
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My earliest files are dated from Feb 1981: they're online, backed up, and also reside on the original 9-track tape. It's doubtful the average Joe has that kind of dedication to digital preservation. My recommendation to those that want to try is to migrate your entire stash every year or so to a different disk (just to keep in practice), and to get properly versed in magnetic tape (to avoid correlated error in the hard drive industry). Have you seen an entire hard drive product line collapse due to systematic error? Not pretty. Needless to say, you also need offsite copies, documentation, and absolutely standard formats for the volume archive and image file.

Because you don't have any of these tedious routines with a stack of toned B&W printed, or KR25 (RIP), there's real value to some backup in analog form. Plus, you don't need advanced training to retrieve and enjoy the pics (relatives will thank you).
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Old 09-19-2011   #40
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I would say that a RAID 5 (or 6) is your best option. I am not sure about the longevity of Blue Ray discs and burning that volume of data would cost lot of time. If you want additional backup to you RAID system that maybe consider to make additional back up of selected data (smaller volume)

I am using just a simple RAID 1 but I am still below 1 TB ...
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Old 09-19-2011   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freakscene View Post
From someone who really knows: http://leica-users.org/NYLUG-2011.pdf
Marty: thanks. He illustrates the point much better than I ever could.

I recommend viewing by anyone who thinks any electronic storage is viable long term.
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Old 10-31-2011   #42
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Shoot film. Preferably black and white.
That is the best solution. Now you have to figure out how to store all those slides.

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Old 10-31-2011   #43
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Decide what you want to protect and then back it up in more than one location and, if you can, more than one format.

I engage in a bit of overkill, perhaps, because I had the hardware. I use Aperture. Its library lives on my laptop. It works with images on a 2-tb external drive (referenced masters, in the parlance). Original out-of-camera files live on another external drive. "Keeper" Jpegs live on the 2-tb drive. Everything is backed up to a third external drive. Original files are also backed up online to an Amazon S3 bucket, and the Jpegs are backed up to a different online service. I use Flickr and have a website, so anything there can be retrieved if necessary.
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Old 10-31-2011   #44
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Sync your raid to a cloud based storage...
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Old 11-01-2011   #45
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I've been looking at FreeNAS because it supports the ZFS file system.

http://www.freenas.org/
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Old 11-01-2011   #46
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print them all on paper
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just got a box of negatives ....
Old 11-01-2011   #47
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just got a box of negatives ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenR View Post
Finding anything among 3Tb of data, even if you could look through it, will be the daunting task of your heirs. If it's too much for you to edit down, they might just toss the whole thing.
My wife's grand mother passed away. Her husband had many cameras, one actually made it to me. Thus, he had many negatives.

I got a box of them. ...... 5 books of 100 sleeves, and about 10 folders/envelopes with around another 200 negatives. Most are 6x4.5, some are 6x9, some seem to be cut to 6X6, and a few cut to oddball sizes ...

There is no meta data at all, no organization except loosely by date/location as the negatives tend to be grouped.

Some of the negatives has deteriorated, others have not, none have been a total loss.

Assuming that my spindled medium does not die, and Adobe meta data is still readable, my heirs will have a much simpler job!

That said, it will be incumbent on me to keep the medium current until my death!

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Old 11-01-2011   #48
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That is not surprising. The negatives were on nitrate-based film stock. An unstable material and subject to spontaneous combustion. Even current acetate "safety" film will deteriorate over time. Not polyester.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith View Post
To the people who keep insisting 'shoot film' I wish you luck.

I've done a couple of archival scanning jobs from negatives dating back to the early part of last century and some of them were serioulsy on their last legs. Admittedly storage had been pretty casual but a negative is not a permanent storage solution for a photographic image. It may be so within your own life time and that may be enough for you ... but for future generations film is just a material on it's way back to mother earth!
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New Archival DVD technology - Lifetime solution?
Old 11-08-2011   #49
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New Archival DVD technology - Lifetime solution?

I just read about a new DVD-type archival photo storage technology called "M Discs". They're made by a company called Millenniata. The technology is discussed in the latest issue of Shutterbug magazine. Here's the link to the company: http://millenniata.com/m-disc/

They claim that the the M Discs are made of inert materials that don't degrade over time. Apparently current style DVD's lose their ability to hold onto data due to the degradation of organic dye material used in their construction.

Data can be written on the new discs with most modern DVD recording technology. They are write-only. Once data is put on them, they can't be erased or written over.

If what I read is true, this could be the big breakthrough in banishing our concerns about archival-ness of image files!
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