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View Poll Results: Which sensor would you like to see in the M10?
Kodak CCD 159 37.32%
Japanese CMOS (canon/sony) 142 33.33%
Foveon X3 (sigma/kodak) 109 25.59%
Japanese Nikon/Sony 16 3.76%
Voters: 426. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-28-2011   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pablito View Post
It's so ironic that wealthy amateurs can afford the current M9 but very few professionals can.
Perhaps those amatuers skimp on other things in order to afford an M9, such as a house, a car, expensive clothing, etc? The only thing of real value that I have is my M9 and my life.
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Old 10-28-2011   #82
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Perhaps those amatuers skimp on other things in order to afford an M9, such as a house, a car, expensive clothing, etc? The only thing of real value that I have is my M9 and my life.
Hehe... I'm a working photographer and this crosses my mind from time to time. So romantic - just you, your leica, and the world.
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Old 11-01-2011   #83
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Perhaps those amatuers skimp on other things in order to afford an M9, such as a house, a car, expensive clothing, etc? The only thing of real value that I have is my M9 and my life.

And all your organs I hope!
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Old 11-02-2011   #84
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And all your organs I hope!
Well, yeah... but that goes along with life for me.
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Old 11-02-2011   #85
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On this topic has everyone seen the interview with Stefan Daniel? He talks a bit about the future of M-mount cameras, and it sounds like CMOS is on the cards.

http://www.megapixel.co.il/english/archive/23834

Q: Do you see any demand from your M line users for video in their cameras and is there a chance we shall see a move from CCD to CMOS in the M10?

A: Offering additional functions such as video and live view would extend the usability of the M camera significantly. CMOS is a prerequisite for it, therefore it will be the technology of the future.

Q: If you look at the DXOMARK results of the M9 you can see that the ISO marks are considerably lower than other full frame cameras. Do you see this as one of the major things you would like to improve in the next M version?


A:
The reason why this is lower lies in the special circumstances of the M-System. It is quite complicated, but I will try to make it short: M-lenses hit the sensor in a flat angle, therefore they are the most compact on the market and older lenses are compatible with M8 and M9. This flat angle will not allow us to use interference IR cut coating on the sensor cover glass, as this would cause uncontrollable color fringes. Instead of, we use an absorption filter, which is not sensible to different light angles, but does filter much more of the visible light as interference filters, and therefore the signal from the sensor needs to be amplified much more which results in a lower light sensitivity. Of course, having a higher sensitivity of the sensor is an issue and we put a significant amount of effort in improving this.”
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Old 11-03-2011   #86
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It sounds like the M10 will not be a M camera as we have known it. Perhaps the end of an era.
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Old 11-03-2011   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
It sounds like the M10 will not be a M camera as we have known it. Perhaps the end of an era.
sad but true, I must take care of my "poor" ccd-based M9...
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Old 11-03-2011   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
It sounds like the M10 will not be a M camera as we have known it. Perhaps the end of an era.
Why, because the next M camera might have a video function?

When the M6 came out, people probably said that it was an end of an era because the new camera had a meter.

When the M7 came out, people probably said that it was an end of an era because the new camera had an Aperture Priority mode.

When the M8 came out, people probably said that it was an end of an era because Leica finally went digital (with the M bodies, at least).

Leica needs to keep up with the times in order to survive.

As long as the cameras continue to use the M Mount, look similar, and function similarly to the previous bodies, I don't see much of a problem.


... Unless I missed something in the article (which may very well be the case - I've been busy with work so my attention span is dwindling).
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Old 11-04-2011   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeicaFan View Post
Why, because the next M camera might have a video function?
Partly, yes. However, I just don't even think it'll look like a M camera anymore. It's JUST an opinion.

Quote:
When the M6 came out, people probably said that it was an end of an era because the new camera had a meter.

When the M7 came out, people probably said that it was an end of an era because the new camera had an Aperture Priority mode.
I doubt it...they were still undeniably M cameras. Perhaps the M5.

Quote:
When the M8 came out, people probably said that it was an end of an era because Leica finally went digital (with the M bodies, at least).
Probably true.

Quote:
Leica needs to keep up with the times in order to survive.

As long as the cameras continue to use the M Mount, look similar, and function similarly to the previous bodies, I don't see much of a problem.
I agree... but for some reason, I just feel like the M10 won't resemble the M camera as we currently know it.
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Old 11-04-2011   #90
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I don't know if Leica will change the look of it. What is the incentive? What is there to gain?

Leica has kept the M bodies very similar for 60 years. It is very easy to recognize a Leica because of that. Changing the design now would undo everything.

Just my opinion...
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Old 11-07-2011   #91
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Well, Kodak doesn't make sensors anymore, so it ain't gonna be a Kodak.
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Old 11-07-2011   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
Partly, yes. However, I just don't even think it'll look like a M camera anymore. It's JUST an opinion.



I doubt it...they were still undeniably M cameras. Perhaps the M5.



Probably true.



I agree... but for some reason, I just feel like the M10 won't resemble the M camera as we currently know it.


Maybe they do need to break a little with tradition ... but if they offend their loyal followers with something that doesn't shout 'Leica' from fifty feet away all hell could break loose!
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Old 11-07-2011   #93
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If/when the M10 debuts (Leica sell all the M9s they can produce, so there's not a hurry on their part to devalue a lot of folks' $7-8k investment), it will be a CMOS sensor. Similar megapixels, better high-ISO performance.
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Old 11-17-2011   #94
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Maybe not, since kodak has now sold their sensor division.. I think kodak will still be used..
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Old 11-17-2011   #95
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Quote:
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Maybe not, since kodak has now sold their sensor division.. I think kodak will still be used..
Leica has said CMOS is the future... it's in a interview available on the internet somewhere.
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Old 11-17-2011   #96
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Leica has said CMOS is the future... it's in a interview available on the internet somewhere.
It's linked in post #86 in this thread.
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Old 11-19-2011   #97
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CMOS, Gimmee the ISO!
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Old 11-19-2011   #98
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Why can't I vote for T-max, Leica make no distinction between it's digital and film in it's model numbering scheme, so the M10 could in theory a film model before the Digital M11.
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Old 11-19-2011   #99
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CMOS, Gimmee the ISO!
Hmm, I rather prefer the image quality at base ISO
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Old 11-21-2011   #100
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The Fujifilm "LX" rumors have it using organic sensor technology, which seems ideal for a top end rangefinder camera. The buzz now is that Leica wants in on the act. Assuming that the Kodak spinoff is out and that everyone has a Sony sensor, Fuji does make sense. A 60Mpix full frame organic sensor is possible, but don't know about the timeline. Of course, like any new technology, the reality is always less than the promise.
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Old 11-22-2011   #101
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It does look good, but is still in the early stages of development. The lack of microlenses and IR filter seem to be key features for an RF sensor.
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Old 11-22-2011   #102
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It looks so good in fact, that if the fujifilm 'LX' comes out and does indeed have that organic sensor, I might sell my dslr...

If the sensor and processing in my x100 is anything to go by, leica will do extremely well to pair with the fujifilm sensor division!
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Old 11-23-2011   #103
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I must be missing something here, because my understanding is that the most expensive cameras use CCD sensors. If CMOS were better, wouldn't they use that instead?
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Old 11-24-2011   #104
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I must be missing something here, because my understanding is that the most expensive cameras use CCD sensors. If CMOS were better, wouldn't they use that instead?
Not really. Just different. CMOS sensors are much more efficient.
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Old 12-02-2011   #105
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Quote:
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I must be missing something here, because my understanding is that the most expensive cameras use CCD sensors. If CMOS were better, wouldn't they use that instead?
Some dirt cheap P&S cameras use CCD as well...
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Old 12-02-2011   #106
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Not really. Just different. CMOS sensors are much more efficient.
Umm..no 't aint that simple. The main catchword is cheap.
This article is quite interesting, as well as the linked documents:
http://www.teledynedalsa.com/corp/ma...D_vs_CMOS.aspx

And another:
http://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&rct=j&...PCrv2unchi1n4w

Ill quote a paragraph from the conclusion.:

Quote:
CCD imaging sensors have matured over the last 30 years to the point where they are now available in very high-resolution formats with very low defect rates. Because of this, they remain the sensor of choice for nearly all scientific and professional imaging applications. However, for the low-end consumer market, where cost is often more important than quality, CCDs are beginning to loose out to a new generation of CMOS devices. Over the next 5 to 10 years, it is likely that CMOS imaging technologies will evolve to the point where they offer all of the benefits of CCDs, along with low cost, low power consumption and high levels of product integration.
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Old 12-06-2011   #107
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Umm..no 't aint that simple. The main catchword is cheap.
This article is quite interesting, as well as the linked documents:
http://www.teledynedalsa.com/corp/ma...D_vs_CMOS.aspx

And another:
http://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&rct=j&...PCrv2unchi1n4w

Ill quote a paragraph from the conclusion.:
re: the quote - I think that point has already been reached - especially considering the incredible reliability of the sony/canon CMOS sensors in comparison with the patchy reliability of the kodak CCD sensors used by leica. 10 years ago that article might have been valid.
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Old 12-06-2011   #108
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Did anyone see the news on Kodak's impending / probable bankruptcy? I think regardless of whether some Investment company now owns the Kodak sensor technology - I think that is likely to be a dead-end. As an engineer - I'd say its very difficult to just pick up where a completely different team of engineers dropped off and continue development.
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Old 12-16-2011   #109
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As an engineer - I'd say its very difficult to just pick up where a completely different team of engineers dropped off and continue development.
Are you sure it'll be a completely different team?
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Old 12-28-2011   #110
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Call me a sucker, but I bought the M9 P. I love it, treasure it but it fits into a very happy niche of my shooting life.

If I'm comfortable, I take it, but understanding that it's never going to get its value from a fence, I frequently carry a Fuji x100 which has a beautiful APS-C sensor that does things that many cameras can't do. On the other hand, at a rational ISO, it's damned near impossible to beat what the M-9 can do.

My guess is that there will be an M9.2 or equivalent and we may get a P option of no red dot etc. I don't have a problem with that. There are limiting aspects of the digital M series. They don't have the world's best low light performance. They don't have this or that. And as an old SLR user (note absence of the D, I go back to the M3 and Nikon F in their early days), there are too many low light or low contrast scenes where the RF doesn't do so well.

The sensor is a bit dated, but I still consider the M9 (or the M9 P with its image changing lack of red dot) because the sensor still produces shattering images that are probably unequalled (probably because I haven't tried everything).

Amateurs or semi-pros won't appreciate this, but the M8 and M9 fit this wonderful niche. On the other hand, the Canon 5D Mark II (Which I own) is about the same age as the M9 and it is the camera of choice for wedding photographers and assorted other pros. It's exceptional, but it's not the M9. It does HiDef video, takes lenses as short as they come and pretty much as long as they come and, given a modicum of F/Stop and light, will autofucus.

Be that as it may, and as much as I love the 5D2, I'm hooked on the Leica, going back to the IIIc, the first I collected. Many chose the Elmar 50mm F/3.5, not because of its speed, but other characteristics.

The Leica tops out at 2500, but fwiw, it seems the 2500 is more useful than the old ASA 3200 film and at not a lot less than that, it's pretty damn good running it through ACR. I don't have anything against the Kodak sensor, but I think Kodak is getting out of the sensor business. And again, fwiw, the Sony very sensitive sensor is getting use or licensing from Canon and all sorts of others. But that particular sensitivity is good for the Fuji x100 (which I use sometimes) but I'm not so sure in the full size Leica sensor. It's not simple.

There are only so many full sized sensors. Leica is one and it does what it does very well. It's not really a competition. Leica is what it is. The others re what they want to be, usually more diverse, etc, but Leica has always been a bit like the aesthete monastic code.
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Old 12-28-2011   #111
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Let me add this to the original post re what is an M which is somewhat akin to what is a Leica.

I'm going to confess to trading a Leica M3 for a Nikon SP (and both of them saw limited use) at the same time I was buying Nikon Fs as my primaries. Why? Because the Nikon did the work well, had excellent optical performance, etc.

But the real question answered is that it was more cost effective for someone who beat the hell of cameras and the Leica required more money than I could justify for a backup occasional usage. Don't ask! the Nikon F fit the use better, whereas the RF were without peer in closeup work in public violence. I preferred the Leica, but cost justification was harder.

In my dotage, I can afford to engage my Leica obsessions and I collect Leicas and Leica lenses (along with some well loved CVs). So far I've focused mostly on IIIcs and afterward, temporarily have half dozen IIIf RDs. But the one real prize of my collection is a IIIg in the lower digits of production. Never used, always a shelf queen, no wear, and near perfection after a CLA. No box, but I'd take it in a minute given the serial. But here's the trick. It has the same shutter as the M3, it has a better rangefinder because of the separate window, It has everything the M3 (also in my collection) has except the rapid advance lever and the single viewfinder winder.

The problem is that what there is, is a better RF window. The viewfinder is variable. But honestly, while the single window VS/RF is convenient, there is greater accuracy in the separate window approach given the magnification question. Better, a question of what you want, but no, not as fast.

The lever makes the M but also the sleek styling. But look at the Ms. they look considerably different in measure. I still expect an advance lever on the M9, but its not there. It has a preview window, but It feels like an M. The feel of the LTMs is distinctive. So is the Ms.

I think Leica is working on the M image given its place in history. But let's face it. they'll keep they M look and feel as long as it makes sense. The M8 and M9 are as closely related despite the size differences as the M6 TTL (I own) and the same size film M7 (which I resisted, but it's an M).

Leica has a good sense of feel. I owned the Leica C compact as a pocket camera and thought it was excellent, especially with the non-zoom normal.

I'm inclined to relax about this. And, for what its worth, for my film work (less as it goes), I also like the CV bodies and lenses, including the latter affixed to the Leica bodies I own.
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Old 01-13-2012   #112
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Maybe the upcoming Fuji new sensor with an organic layer, random RGB CFA and no AA filter.
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Old 01-13-2012   #113
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Quote:
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Maybe the upcoming Fuji new sensor with an organic layer, random RGB CFA and no AA filter.
Apparently this is nowhere near close to being put into cameras...

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news...baker-fujifilm
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Old 01-13-2012   #114
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You know what I want: the ability to snap-in the chip of my choice.
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Old 01-13-2012   #115
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Apparently this is nowhere near close to being put into cameras...

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news...baker-fujifilm
Thanks for the link. Very interesting! Too bad that it's not intended for digital cameras, but maybe he didn't want to disclose future strategy. It seems that Sony is also working on a sensor with three organic layers according to a patent that was discovered some time ago. All this is very promising.
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Old 01-13-2012   #116
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Everybody knows that once the M10 comes out, the two logical things to do is to bash it and begin to speculate about the M11...
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Old 01-18-2012   #117
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Don't forget the fact that the M9 will be bashed for its used prices on the market.
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Old 01-18-2012   #118
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And then we can hear that the M8 is worthless junk ...
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Old 01-18-2012   #119
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I have a feeling that the M10 will take quite a large leap forwards while retaining some of the line's traditional simplicity. Partnering with Fuji would be a very good move it would seem, but whether that happens is anyone' guess.

I still feel that Leica has to make itself more relevant in the pro realm to ensure the brand retains cache. It will only achieve this by getting more cameras out into the field capturing iconic images. Traditionalists might not like it, but I suspect this will only be possible by adding some functions, features and complexity. They dont have to go nuts, but IMHO they do have to provide what the majority of potential users want. While the M9 has great performance at base ISO, its performance at higher ISOs is now seriously behind the rest of the pack and if it takes CMOS sensors to do this at the expense of a little bit of base performance, this would be the smart move. It adds up to better overall utility for more people.

The M9 made the 'impossible' FF DRF a reality. They have that under their belt but now need to make the platform more relevant to the wider market. This can be done and for all those who said it was not, look at the storm over the X-Pro1. It is not just RF nuts getting excited, but a much broader base of camera users.

A camera somewhere between the M9 and X-Pro1 would match my idea of the current perfect reality and if leica pulls of that balancing act at reasonable price point, they have the potential to get many more M10s out there than M9s. Sure they could go up to $8-9K, but I wonder whether that would be a smart move in the long run. I suspect not.

I also hope they upgrade the body design to integrate a thumb rest and a more sensible design for accessing memory cards etc. These improvements could still be done with great aesthetic sympathy for those who want it to look as graceful as a spitfire's wing

Most of the great master photographers of Leica fame are either dead or very old. Leica needs a new crop of photographers and that will require a wider appreciation of camera utility. I suspect the M10 will be a significant step away from the old towards the new.
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Old 03-11-2012   #120
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Partnering with Fuji would be a very good move it would seem, but whether that happens is anyone' guess.
I dunno about that. Look at Hasselblad and Yashica Contax, etc...

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