sick of reliability issues...

[sig]

This is why FSU cameras is so great, when you buy it you are allowed to both love it and complain! Somewhere between 50$ and the cost of a M9 there is a magic border, if you exceed it you are not allowed to complain, just love.

[emraphoto]

Originally Posted by Roger Hicks

I do. But then, all I use it for is part of earning my living. Nothing serious like pixel peeping.

Cheers,

R.

Well, at one point Roger you and I were similar beasts. Sadly my digital Leica experience was not tolerable and after a very long time using them, I said 'bugger them'. In my case it was not only camera reliability. Leica's response (and response time) was completely unacceptable. Combine that with the general consensus that I should feel 'privaleged' that Leica fixed my 1 week old, $5500 dollar, camera and it only took 2.5 months, numerous phone calls and finally a terse email to Leica... Well, you get the point.

I believe it is well established that I spend very little time pixel peeping.

[Roger Hicks]

Originally Posted by emraphoto

Well, at one point Roger you and I were similar beasts. Sadly my digital Leica experience was not tolerable and after a very long time using them, I said 'bugger them'. In my case it was not only camera reliability. Leica's response (and response time) was completely unacceptable. Combine that with the general consensus that I should feel 'privaleged' that Leica fixed my 1 week old, $5500 dollar, camera and it only took 2.5 months, numerous phone calls and finally a terse email to Leica... Well, you get the point.

I believe it is well established that I spend very little time pixel peeping.

Sure. I don't claim that Leicas are perfect. Nor do I claim that the only reason to reject them is pixel peeping. But for every person with a story like yours, there is another with unreasonable expectations, and there are quite a few who are happy enough using them. It's the extrapolation of 'My experience is the only experience' that I'm against (and of course, I'm not accusing you of that).

Ultimately, it's just a camera, and like any other camera, if it suits you, use it, and if it doesn't, don't. The fact that it's a very expensive camera tends to skew the debate a bit, but ultimately, as I say, that doesn't affect the simple truth that it's just a camera.

Cheers,

R.

[emraphoto]

Originally Posted by Roger Hicks

Sure. I don't claim that Leicas are perfect. Nor do I claim that the only reason to reject them is pixel peeping. But for every person with a story like yours, there is another with unreasonable expectations, and there are quite a few who are happy enough using them. It's the extrapolation of 'My experience is the only experience' that I'm against (and of course, I'm not accusing you of that).

Ultimately, it's just a camera, and like any other camera, if it suits you, use it, and if it doesn't, don't. The fact that it's a very expensive camera tends to skew the debate a bit, but ultimately, as I say, that doesn't affect the simple truth that it's just a camera.

Cheers,

R.

indeed. might i also add that my experience, the negative aspect, was with Leica as a service provider versus the camera.

[pgk]

Originally Posted by Sebben

I have been waiting for about 7 months for my application to be processed. But hey, the year isn‘t out yet.

Well I'd suggest a phone call should sort this out - I've been very impressed with Leica's responses and speed of repair so far. 7 months clearly means that something must have gone wrong which I'd suggest could be fixed with a 'phone call.

I have to say that I read very, very polarised views of Leica's service ,some of which bear no relationship to my own experience. I wonder, are we all dealing with the same company? Given your situation I'd suggest a few 'phone calls would be worthwhile to straighten everything out.

[DrDick]

Fortunately the only problem with my M9 is the leatherette is peeling off and in the UK they can't even fix that but have to send it to Solms taking about 4+ weeks. Canon however managed a sensor clean on my 1Dsmk3 in 2 hours while I waited. None of my Canon pro bodies have ever failed me. Why did Leica close their UK service centre at Milton Keynes (Did they think their products never go wrong!) Leatherette aside the M9 is a delight!

[jaapv]

Why don't you get a nice Cameraleather special covering, rip off the old stuff and apply say Snakeskin, Kid leather or any other of Morgan's offerings? I have done so regularly. Recommended for DIY!

http://www.cameraleather.com/

[Phil_F_NM]

Like I've said, it's not just the pixel itself, it's the vertical line which is created in the camera along with the stuck pixel. It's very hard to correct for in a way that does not look obvious.
I've seen two additional M8 bodies that had to go back to Leica for this very reason since I last posted in this thread.
As for warranty work, Leica will indeed fix the issue while under warranty.

How does shooting RAW = pixel mapping in these cases? Because I've shot nothing but RAW with both the digital Leica bodies and have been forced to use an editing tool to remove them until they reached the point that they were too obvious to edit out.

Phil Forrest

[palec]

Originally Posted by KM-25

If you give up on the M9, get an X100, it is a total game changer of a camera and if I can put 10,000++ frames through it in less than three months with no issues at all and even a members of Magnum can use it, so can you...

Nice example of how a picture can be misleading. Koudelka who is holding the X100 said in interview for czech magazine Reflex (one of the august issues) that he received a digital camera as a gift, but for him it has large shutter lag to work in his typical style and he uses it for portraits only.

http://www.reflex.cz/clanek/placena-...potrebuju.html (it's in Czech and content is paid)

[Phil_F_NM]

aaaaaannnnnnnd today I got the runaway shutter twice and a shutter fault error. Turned the camera off the second time and even in the off state it was "dieseling" (like a badly timed hot engine still firing after the ignition is off) so I let it stop, removed the battery then replaced it and used it for the rest of the night but still felt like I was walking on eggshells.

The siren call of another film M is strong these days....

Phil Forrest

[traveler_101]

Originally Posted by Phil_F_NM

Like I've said, it's not just the pixel itself, it's the vertical line which is created in the camera along with the stuck pixel. It's very hard to correct for in a way that does not look obvious.
I've seen two additional M8 bodies that had to go back to Leica for this very reason since I last posted in this thread.
Phil Forrest

It seems to me that Leica has a problem then. You know, I have never come across a similar thread on the m43 forums where I also hang. It's just unbelievable to me that Leica wouldn't make this right--whether or not a warranty has expired.

Look, I paid $450.00 for my Olympus E-P1 (shortly after the E-P2 came out). If it goes bad, well then, I'm out a few hundred. It hasn't gone bad; indeed, I've had no trouble with what has turned out to be a nice, well built, well designed little camera. What do these electronic Leicas cost? Thousands of dollars don't they?

Anyone who invests that kind of money is entitled to some sort of guarantee that they are buying the finest product in the world.

[peter_n]

Originally Posted by Phil_F_NM

The siren call of another film M is strong these days....

I just bought a third film M and got my first roll back from it yesterday and the negs look good on the light box, so everything is working. I'll continue with the Fuji dSLR until someone produces a digital that I can use my Leica glass on. I don't know how you put up with it...

[MCTuomey]

I've owned 3 digital M's over the past 3 years. Just now had my first mishap - the M9 "low battery" display problem for which Leica recently posted notice. Leica USA indicates about a 2-week wait for repairs, fully under warranty. I find one service call in 3 years of use acceptable. The M8/9 file quality and the prints I have made from these files are sufficiently compelling for me to stay with digital Leicas, end of story.

My backup is a film M. Happy I have it right now. It would make a lot of sense for me to have a backup digi M, but I couldn't swing the funds. And I like the feel of shooting a film M anyway.

If I had Phil's experience, I would think differently. Frustration breeds contempt, and patience in regard to gear failures is somewhat uncommon among us gearheads.

[MCTuomey]

Originally Posted by DrDick

Fortunately the only problem with my M9 is the leatherette is peeling off and in the UK they can't even fix that but have to send it to Solms taking about 4+ weeks. Canon however managed a sensor clean on my 1Dsmk3 in 2 hours while I waited. None of my Canon pro bodies have ever failed me. Why did Leica close their UK service centre at Milton Keynes (Did they think their products never go wrong!) Leatherette aside the M9 is a delight!

The last sentence says a lot. That's why I think a lot of M9 users resign themselves to life with Leica service.

I don't understand why you'd compare a sensor cleaning to re-skinning a camera as the basis for judging service turnaround. Re Canon, I've shot with something like 12-13 Canon dSLRs over the last 7-8 years. Shutters have failed, AF has failed, stuff has happened. Service turnaround has always been about 2 weeks or so, door-to-door (Canon-Irvine US). That's why we buy backup cameras.

[Phil_F_NM]

As much as I've complained lately about the digital M bodies and will continue to do so, I've decided to keep them both, at least until the M9 warranty is up in another year. I need to get on Leica's professional service too.
I've been shooting a bit more lately with my 35 'Lux and 75/1.8 CV lens and the images are just too good for me to go with anything else. I can't get images that look this good from most films when scanned on my Nikon LS4000, so selling the digital M bodies would just be kind of robbing Peter to pay Paul when I finally invested in another digital system.

All that said, in spite of the frustration of the reliability of the 2 Leica digitals I've owned, they still are the best tools out there for normal range image making. I'm going to get a D2x for the telephoto work but I rarely need that kind of reach.

Regardless, I'm still sick of the Leicas' issues as well as the cold shoulder that Leica can turn to their faithful system users when it comes to service. If one pays as much for a digital camera as we do, we should get much better warranty treatment. Leaf does it and their 22mp digital backs don't cost much more than an M9 body. From what I've gleaned, they have incredible service and service policies (but the grass may be greener...) Anyway, Leica users deserve more service and a more reliable camera.

Phil Forrest

[Tim Gray]

I can't speak of the reliability issues, but in terms of service, I was much happier with Canon's service than Leica's. Much faster, much more affordable. The two time's I sent lenses in for work at Leica, the turn around time was around 6 weeks. Canon was a bit over 1 week.

[Phil_F_NM]

Mine were both out for several months and the way Leica treats service and communication is kind of like the way they treat product announcements; they are very tight lipped about updates then one day, all of a sudden the camera arrives back.

Canon service was amazing back in 2006 when I was shooting a Canon DSLR and dropped my 70-200 L lens on the front element right before a shoot. They had the lens back to me repaired with a 3 month warranty within a week.

Before that I was covered under Nikon's professional services which was an outstanding service, when I was shooting for the Navy. I called our Nikon representative from Iraq right after I got there in August, 2004 and had a problem with the camera not turning on under any circumstances. The Nikon rep said he could have a new D2H body FedEx'ed to our airbase in Kuwait within 24 hours. From there it would take upwards of a week to get to where I was a few hundred miles north. We solved the problem over the phone though and I didn't need a replacement. It turned out that it was "too hot" in Kuwait and Iraq for the D2H to reliably turn on so I had to keep it out of the sun until it got cooler in the fall months.

My film Leicas just kept on shooting in the heat with no problems at all.

Phil Forrest

[x-ray]

Originally Posted by ChrisN

Honest question here: is digital technology yet at the point where it is possible to guarantee zero hot pixels on a sensor? I know my Pentax has a "Pixel Mapping" option in the menus, which "corrects defective pixels" (presumably by turning off that pixel). Isn't this common on high-end cameras?

I've been shooting digital for my commercial work for thirteen years and have owned a Nikon D1,D1x, D100, Canon 1d, 1ds,1dsII, 20d, 2different digital Rebels and a Hasselblad CFV39 and never had a dead or hot pixel. Actually never had a repair related to a failure.

I recently devided to get a Panasonic G3 and had to return two cameras due to dozens of dead and stuck pixels. I gave up on the G3 and bought a Nikon D3100 ato carry on vacation. No dead or stuck pixels and much better images out of the D3100.

I would be really ticked too. This shouldnt happen with equipment that cost this much. Last year I was ready to buy a new M9'until started researching the assorted problems and decided to get the Hasselblad back.

[jaapv]

Uif you don't want pixel defects the only way is to figure out how to avoid cosmic radiation, as that is the cause. For a number of technical reasons CCD sensors will be a bit more sensitive, but CMos is by no means immune. Professional users tend to regard pixel remapping as routine service.

[jamato8]

I had some hot pixels the other day, the first. Very, very strange they were. I got maybe 10 or 12 on a couple of images but they weren't in the same place but were in sequence. Then they went away within the same shooting and haven't returned. It was like the sensor got bombarded. I have never had this happen before. None of my cameras, about 6 with me right now, have any hot pixels at the moment.

[Phil_F_NM]

x-ray: the cool thing about the backs offered for Hassy and Mamiya is that they aren't much more expensive than the Leica M9 and as far as I can see, Leaf offers a lifetime upgrade/warranty program for the original user. That's the kind of service we should be getting with Leica.

Jaapv: How come the Leica is so much more sensitive to cosmic radiation then? And why does this happen on certain batches and not others? Or some people have never had it happen and have owned an M9 since the day of release while others have had it happen several times? While cosmic radiation may be a cause, I think it's a red herring in this case or else I'd be seeing all sorts of stuck and hot pixels all the time. There are other causes of this sensor fault as well and apparently other sensor manufacturers have figured out a way to make their sensors, be they CCD or CMOS, less susceptible to it.
As for an earlier question you asked in the thread, us Leica users in the USA aren't offered a warranty upgrade for a fee nor are we eligible for one. I'd gladly pay for more time on my warranty but since I'm an American, my warranty runs out on 23 October, 2012.
The M8 doesn't have the firmware available for remapping of the sensor and so it has to be replaced. The M9 can be remapped, but how often? Sensible companies put remapping utilities in their firmware. Epson did it with the RD-1! It's 7 years later and Leica still can't get it right with their camera that costs almost 3x as much new! Oh well. So how often do I have to send the camera back to Leica and then wait for remapping? With the current workload of Leica NJ, I *might* get a whopping 7 months of shooting out of the camera before it has to go back to the factory. Absolutely unacceptable.

Only 7 days until we all get to see how much out of warranty repair on the M9 really costs!

Phil Forrest

[Phil_F_NM]

Steve, the shutter fault camera is an M9. It's the one I've been complaining about since it is going back to Leica for a stuck hot pixel that is really annoying.
Newest firmware updated the day after it came out a few months ago.

Patrickjames: I've got a Leica M9, an M8 an M4 and I'll have a D2x in a few months so I'll be set on backups. I love the pro-level Nikons and have a few year's experience with them so the d2x will serve me very well in spite of it not being the most current. It's still one of the best DSLRs available, and these days they are available for cheap. Nikon still services them in case I need it. And they are quick and much cheaper than Leica service usually.

Phil Forrest

[Phil_F_NM]

Steve, it happened Friday night so I haven't contacted the shop about it. I will let Leica know about the shutter fault when I send it in. I need to keep it for another two weeks though at least for a fellow RFF member to really have a chance to walk around town to see if he wants to buy one.
It's still within warranty so don't doubt that I'm going to be on Leica, hounding them about these issues.

Phil Forrest

[jaapv]

It is the only CCD in the 135 class cameras, digital backs will have the same incidence, only they are not taken in aircraft as often. You will find it mentioned in the M8/M9 manual too.-this subject has been rehashed dozens of times in the forums and is well documented, I won' t go there again. It is not occurring in batches. Think what you want to think, but your premisse is not covered by facts.

Originally Posted by Phil_F_NM

x-ray: the cool thing about the backs offered for Hassy and Mamiya is that they aren't much more expensive than the Leica M9 and as far as I can see, Leaf offers a lifetime upgrade/warranty program for the original user. That's the kind of service we should be getting with Leica.

Jaapv: How come the Leica is so much more sensitive to cosmic radiation then? And why does this happen on certain batches and not others? Or some people have never had it happen and have owned an M9 since the day of release while others have had it happen several times? While cosmic radiation may be a cause, I think it's a red herring in this case or else I'd be seeing all sorts of stuck and hot pixels all the time. There are other causes of this sensor fault as well and apparently other sensor manufacturers have figured out a way to make their sensors, be they CCD or CMOS, less susceptible to it.
As for an earlier question you asked in the thread, us Leica users in the USA aren't offered a warranty upgrade for a fee nor are we eligible for one. I'd gladly pay for more time on my warranty but since I'm an American, my warranty runs out on 23 October, 2012.
The M8 doesn't have the firmware available for remapping of the sensor and so it has to be replaced. The M9 can be remapped, but how often? Sensible companies put remapping utilities in their firmware. Epson did it with the RD-1! It's 7 years later and Leica still can't get it right with their camera that costs almost 3x as much new! Oh well. So how often do I have to send the camera back to Leica and then wait for remapping? With the current workload of Leica NJ, I *might* get a whopping 7 months of shooting out of the camera before it has to go back to the factory. Absolutely unacceptable.

Only 7 days until we all get to see how much out of warranty repair on the M9 really costs!

Phil Forrest

[jaapv]

Originally Posted by Phil_F_NM

Steve, the shutter fault camera is an M9. It's the one I've been complaining about since it is going back to Leica for a stuck hot pixel that is really annoying.
Newest firmware updated the day after it came out a few months ago.

Patrickjames: I've got a Leica M9, an M8 an M4 and I'll have a D2x in a few months so I'll be set on backups. I love the pro-level Nikons and have a few year's experience with them so the d2x will serve me very well in spite of it not being the most current. It's still one of the best DSLRs available, and these days they are available for cheap. Nikon still services them in case I need it. And they are quick and much cheaper than Leica service usually.

Phil Forrest

The Leica shutter is supplied by Copal, as is the shutter of Canon and Nikon
In my experience Leica will extend courtesy repair out of guaranty in many cases.