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Old 08-29-2011   #81
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Why don't you get a nice Cameraleather special covering, rip off the old stuff and apply say Snakeskin, Kid leather or any other of Morgan's offerings? I have done so regularly. Recommended for DIY!

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Old 08-29-2011   #82
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Like I've said, it's not just the pixel itself, it's the vertical line which is created in the camera along with the stuck pixel. It's very hard to correct for in a way that does not look obvious.
I've seen two additional M8 bodies that had to go back to Leica for this very reason since I last posted in this thread.
As for warranty work, Leica will indeed fix the issue while under warranty.

How does shooting RAW = pixel mapping in these cases? Because I've shot nothing but RAW with both the digital Leica bodies and have been forced to use an editing tool to remove them until they reached the point that they were too obvious to edit out.

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Old 08-30-2011   #83
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Originally Posted by KM-25 View Post
If you give up on the M9, get an X100, it is a total game changer of a camera and if I can put 10,000++ frames through it in less than three months with no issues at all and even a members of Magnum can use it, so can you...
Nice example of how a picture can be misleading. Koudelka who is holding the X100 said in interview for czech magazine Reflex (one of the august issues) that he received a digital camera as a gift, but for him it has large shutter lag to work in his typical style and he uses it for portraits only.

http://www.reflex.cz/clanek/placena-...potrebuju.html (it's in Czech and content is paid)
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Old 09-02-2011   #84
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aaaaaannnnnnnd today I got the runaway shutter twice and a shutter fault error. Turned the camera off the second time and even in the off state it was "dieseling" (like a badly timed hot engine still firing after the ignition is off) so I let it stop, removed the battery then replaced it and used it for the rest of the night but still felt like I was walking on eggshells.

The siren call of another film M is strong these days....

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Old 09-02-2011   #85
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Originally Posted by Phil_F_NM View Post
Like I've said, it's not just the pixel itself, it's the vertical line which is created in the camera along with the stuck pixel. It's very hard to correct for in a way that does not look obvious.
I've seen two additional M8 bodies that had to go back to Leica for this very reason since I last posted in this thread.
Phil Forrest
It seems to me that Leica has a problem then. You know, I have never come across a similar thread on the m43 forums where I also hang. It's just unbelievable to me that Leica wouldn't make this right--whether or not a warranty has expired.

Look, I paid $450.00 for my Olympus E-P1 (shortly after the E-P2 came out). If it goes bad, well then, I'm out a few hundred. It hasn't gone bad; indeed, I've had no trouble with what has turned out to be a nice, well built, well designed little camera. What do these electronic Leicas cost? Thousands of dollars don't they?

Anyone who invests that kind of money is entitled to some sort of guarantee that they are buying the finest product in the world.

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Old 09-03-2011   #86
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The siren call of another film M is strong these days....
I just bought a third film M and got my first roll back from it yesterday and the negs look good on the light box, so everything is working. I'll continue with the Fuji dSLR until someone produces a digital that I can use my Leica glass on. I don't know how you put up with it...

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Old 09-03-2011   #87
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I've owned 3 digital M's over the past 3 years. Just now had my first mishap - the M9 "low battery" display problem for which Leica recently posted notice. Leica USA indicates about a 2-week wait for repairs, fully under warranty. I find one service call in 3 years of use acceptable. The M8/9 file quality and the prints I have made from these files are sufficiently compelling for me to stay with digital Leicas, end of story.

My backup is a film M. Happy I have it right now. It would make a lot of sense for me to have a backup digi M, but I couldn't swing the funds. And I like the feel of shooting a film M anyway.

If I had Phil's experience, I would think differently. Frustration breeds contempt, and patience in regard to gear failures is somewhat uncommon among us gearheads.
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Old 09-03-2011   #88
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Fortunately the only problem with my M9 is the leatherette is peeling off and in the UK they can't even fix that but have to send it to Solms taking about 4+ weeks. Canon however managed a sensor clean on my 1Dsmk3 in 2 hours while I waited. None of my Canon pro bodies have ever failed me. Why did Leica close their UK service centre at Milton Keynes (Did they think their products never go wrong!) Leatherette aside the M9 is a delight!
The last sentence says a lot. That's why I think a lot of M9 users resign themselves to life with Leica service.

I don't understand why you'd compare a sensor cleaning to re-skinning a camera as the basis for judging service turnaround. Re Canon, I've shot with something like 12-13 Canon dSLRs over the last 7-8 years. Shutters have failed, AF has failed, stuff has happened. Service turnaround has always been about 2 weeks or so, door-to-door (Canon-Irvine US). That's why we buy backup cameras.
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Old 09-03-2011   #89
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As much as I've complained lately about the digital M bodies and will continue to do so, I've decided to keep them both, at least until the M9 warranty is up in another year. I need to get on Leica's professional service too.
I've been shooting a bit more lately with my 35 'Lux and 75/1.8 CV lens and the images are just too good for me to go with anything else. I can't get images that look this good from most films when scanned on my Nikon LS4000, so selling the digital M bodies would just be kind of robbing Peter to pay Paul when I finally invested in another digital system.

All that said, in spite of the frustration of the reliability of the 2 Leica digitals I've owned, they still are the best tools out there for normal range image making. I'm going to get a D2x for the telephoto work but I rarely need that kind of reach.

Regardless, I'm still sick of the Leicas' issues as well as the cold shoulder that Leica can turn to their faithful system users when it comes to service. If one pays as much for a digital camera as we do, we should get much better warranty treatment. Leaf does it and their 22mp digital backs don't cost much more than an M9 body. From what I've gleaned, they have incredible service and service policies (but the grass may be greener...) Anyway, Leica users deserve more service and a more reliable camera.

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Old 09-03-2011   #90
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I can't speak of the reliability issues, but in terms of service, I was much happier with Canon's service than Leica's. Much faster, much more affordable. The two time's I sent lenses in for work at Leica, the turn around time was around 6 weeks. Canon was a bit over 1 week.
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Old 09-03-2011   #91
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Mine were both out for several months and the way Leica treats service and communication is kind of like the way they treat product announcements; they are very tight lipped about updates then one day, all of a sudden the camera arrives back.

Canon service was amazing back in 2006 when I was shooting a Canon DSLR and dropped my 70-200 L lens on the front element right before a shoot. They had the lens back to me repaired with a 3 month warranty within a week.

Before that I was covered under Nikon's professional services which was an outstanding service, when I was shooting for the Navy. I called our Nikon representative from Iraq right after I got there in August, 2004 and had a problem with the camera not turning on under any circumstances. The Nikon rep said he could have a new D2H body FedEx'ed to our airbase in Kuwait within 24 hours. From there it would take upwards of a week to get to where I was a few hundred miles north. We solved the problem over the phone though and I didn't need a replacement. It turned out that it was "too hot" in Kuwait and Iraq for the D2H to reliably turn on so I had to keep it out of the sun until it got cooler in the fall months.

My film Leicas just kept on shooting in the heat with no problems at all.

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Old 09-03-2011   #92
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Honest question here: is digital technology yet at the point where it is possible to guarantee zero hot pixels on a sensor? I know my Pentax has a "Pixel Mapping" option in the menus, which "corrects defective pixels" (presumably by turning off that pixel). Isn't this common on high-end cameras?
I've been shooting digital for my commercial work for thirteen years and have owned a Nikon D1,D1x, D100, Canon 1d, 1ds,1dsII, 20d, 2different digital Rebels and a Hasselblad CFV39 and never had a dead or hot pixel. Actually never had a repair related to a failure.

I recently devided to get a Panasonic G3 and had to return two cameras due to dozens of dead and stuck pixels. I gave up on the G3 and bought a Nikon D3100 ato carry on vacation. No dead or stuck pixels and much better images out of the D3100.

I would be really ticked too. This shouldnt happen with equipment that cost this much. Last year I was ready to buy a new M9'until started researching the assorted problems and decided to get the Hasselblad back.
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Old 09-03-2011   #93
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Uif you don't want pixel defects the only way is to figure out how to avoid cosmic radiation, as that is the cause. For a number of technical reasons CCD sensors will be a bit more sensitive, but CMos is by no means immune. Professional users tend to regard pixel remapping as routine service.
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Old 09-03-2011   #94
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I had some hot pixels the other day, the first. Very, very strange they were. I got maybe 10 or 12 on a couple of images but they weren't in the same place but were in sequence. Then they went away within the same shooting and haven't returned. It was like the sensor got bombarded. I have never had this happen before. None of my cameras, about 6 with me right now, have any hot pixels at the moment.
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Old 09-03-2011   #95
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x-ray: the cool thing about the backs offered for Hassy and Mamiya is that they aren't much more expensive than the Leica M9 and as far as I can see, Leaf offers a lifetime upgrade/warranty program for the original user. That's the kind of service we should be getting with Leica.

Jaapv: How come the Leica is so much more sensitive to cosmic radiation then? And why does this happen on certain batches and not others? Or some people have never had it happen and have owned an M9 since the day of release while others have had it happen several times? While cosmic radiation may be a cause, I think it's a red herring in this case or else I'd be seeing all sorts of stuck and hot pixels all the time. There are other causes of this sensor fault as well and apparently other sensor manufacturers have figured out a way to make their sensors, be they CCD or CMOS, less susceptible to it.
As for an earlier question you asked in the thread, us Leica users in the USA aren't offered a warranty upgrade for a fee nor are we eligible for one. I'd gladly pay for more time on my warranty but since I'm an American, my warranty runs out on 23 October, 2012.
The M8 doesn't have the firmware available for remapping of the sensor and so it has to be replaced. The M9 can be remapped, but how often? Sensible companies put remapping utilities in their firmware. Epson did it with the RD-1! It's 7 years later and Leica still can't get it right with their camera that costs almost 3x as much new! Oh well. So how often do I have to send the camera back to Leica and then wait for remapping? With the current workload of Leica NJ, I *might* get a whopping 7 months of shooting out of the camera before it has to go back to the factory. Absolutely unacceptable.

Only 7 days until we all get to see how much out of warranty repair on the M9 really costs!

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Old 09-03-2011   #96
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Steve, the shutter fault camera is an M9. It's the one I've been complaining about since it is going back to Leica for a stuck hot pixel that is really annoying.
Newest firmware updated the day after it came out a few months ago.

Patrickjames: I've got a Leica M9, an M8 an M4 and I'll have a D2x in a few months so I'll be set on backups. I love the pro-level Nikons and have a few year's experience with them so the d2x will serve me very well in spite of it not being the most current. It's still one of the best DSLRs available, and these days they are available for cheap. Nikon still services them in case I need it. And they are quick and much cheaper than Leica service usually.

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Old 09-03-2011   #97
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Steve, it happened Friday night so I haven't contacted the shop about it. I will let Leica know about the shutter fault when I send it in. I need to keep it for another two weeks though at least for a fellow RFF member to really have a chance to walk around town to see if he wants to buy one.
It's still within warranty so don't doubt that I'm going to be on Leica, hounding them about these issues.

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Old 09-04-2011   #98
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It is the only CCD in the 135 class cameras, digital backs will have the same incidence, only they are not taken in aircraft as often. You will find it mentioned in the M8/M9 manual too.-this subject has been rehashed dozens of times in the forums and is well documented, I won' t go there again. It is not occurring in batches. Think what you want to think, but your premisse is not covered by facts.
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x-ray: the cool thing about the backs offered for Hassy and Mamiya is that they aren't much more expensive than the Leica M9 and as far as I can see, Leaf offers a lifetime upgrade/warranty program for the original user. That's the kind of service we should be getting with Leica.

Jaapv: How come the Leica is so much more sensitive to cosmic radiation then? And why does this happen on certain batches and not others? Or some people have never had it happen and have owned an M9 since the day of release while others have had it happen several times? While cosmic radiation may be a cause, I think it's a red herring in this case or else I'd be seeing all sorts of stuck and hot pixels all the time. There are other causes of this sensor fault as well and apparently other sensor manufacturers have figured out a way to make their sensors, be they CCD or CMOS, less susceptible to it.
As for an earlier question you asked in the thread, us Leica users in the USA aren't offered a warranty upgrade for a fee nor are we eligible for one. I'd gladly pay for more time on my warranty but since I'm an American, my warranty runs out on 23 October, 2012.
The M8 doesn't have the firmware available for remapping of the sensor and so it has to be replaced. The M9 can be remapped, but how often? Sensible companies put remapping utilities in their firmware. Epson did it with the RD-1! It's 7 years later and Leica still can't get it right with their camera that costs almost 3x as much new! Oh well. So how often do I have to send the camera back to Leica and then wait for remapping? With the current workload of Leica NJ, I *might* get a whopping 7 months of shooting out of the camera before it has to go back to the factory. Absolutely unacceptable.

Only 7 days until we all get to see how much out of warranty repair on the M9 really costs!

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Old 09-04-2011   #99
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Steve, the shutter fault camera is an M9. It's the one I've been complaining about since it is going back to Leica for a stuck hot pixel that is really annoying.
Newest firmware updated the day after it came out a few months ago.

Patrickjames: I've got a Leica M9, an M8 an M4 and I'll have a D2x in a few months so I'll be set on backups. I love the pro-level Nikons and have a few year's experience with them so the d2x will serve me very well in spite of it not being the most current. It's still one of the best DSLRs available, and these days they are available for cheap. Nikon still services them in case I need it. And they are quick and much cheaper than Leica service usually.

Phil Forrest
The Leica shutter is supplied by Copal, as is the shutter of Canon and Nikon
In my experience Leica will extend courtesy repair out of guaranty in many cases.
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Old 09-04-2011   #100
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In my experience Leica will extend courtesy repair out of guaranty in many cases.
They didn't do that with my M8. Instead they charged me as much for the repair as a working user M2 would cost here on RFF.

While they state "Cosmic radiation (eg: on flights) can cause pixel defects." Neither of my digital M bodies has been on a flight or anywhere near the upper atmosphere before these pixel errors occurred. In fact, they haven't been past about 1000 feet above sea level so the atmosphere would help to attenuate the affect of cosmic radiation on my CCD. And cosmic radiation shouldn't cause permanent damage, it will cause a spike in a particular transistor or transistors which can appear as hot or dead pixels, yes but they won't be repeated like the problem I'm having.

It also appears that in manufacture of the CCD is where many hot, stuck or dead pixel errors occur. In my case, I have a stuck red pixel peaked at 255 in the left lower quadrant of the image, so the right upper quadrant of the sensor. This red pixel and occasional cyan line appear in every photo despite the signal excess of the photo site being reached or passed.

According to the ISO standard, most consumer electronic devices of this nature are allowed 2 dead, 2 hot or 5 stuck pixels or a combination of two per/megapixel. The old standard and new are slightly different but the numbers still remain the same. These are manufacturing defects, not ones from cosmic rays.

As for the batch issue, early Leica M8 cameras were plagued by it. Some M9 cameras have been affected, mostly with stuck pixels in one particular channel, usually red or green and they get sent to Leica for fixing.

Now, considering that my M9 has had two incidents of the same channel with the same line in the same quadrant (though a few hundred pixels away) within 6 months of each other wouldn't you consider that unacceptable? Every single M8 I have known the owner of has had to go back to Leica for hot pixel fixing. My old D2H never had a single faulty pixel and it had an LBCAST sensor, closer to a CCD than a CMOS. I took that camera up flying around the world twice and on numerous missions over the Pacific with the Navy. Not one faulty pixel. And that was 7 years ago.

This is a manufacturing defect and Leica knows it which is why they cover it under warranty. If they simply indemnified themselves with the cosmic radiation excuse, they wouldn't have to fix any cameras.

As for out of warranty repair, there is no such thing as an out of warranty Leica M9 right now. There will be in 6 more days though.

So, in summation, while cosmic rays may cause pixel defects, they shouldn't cause them with such frequency in the same camera. If it is in fact the case then Leica needs to get on board and do what other companies do, make the problem not appear to our eyes.
The problem is one of manufacture and the warranty service we get from Leica proves that. They did cover their backsides for 9/10/11 though by saying that cosmic radiation may cause pixel damage so they won't have to continue to service our cameras after the 2 year warranty is up.
Leica sensors exhibit stuck and hot pixels far too frequently.
Leica also needs to treat the customers of their top shelf cameras like they just bought a top shelf camera. With better warranty service, warranty period upgrade availability (which is not available to US customers) and more reliable products.

Can you pass on the secret of how to get out of warranty/guarantee service on a digital Leica to help save the rest of us some money?

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Old 09-04-2011   #101
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None of my Canon pro bodies have ever failed me.
All Canon DLSR's (most of them consumer models, some 1-series) I have owned myself or used for at least a day have failed me resulting in lost shots and/or shot opportunities. Memory cards have also failed me resulting in lost shots, only when used with Canon DLSR's, though. These things happen.
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Old 09-04-2011   #102
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I don't think Leicas problem is the sensor as much as it is design and execution of the camera. Hasselblad uses a Kodak sensor and hot and dead pixels are virtually non existent. I think Phase used some of the Kodak sensors without issues.

For those who have bought a new M8 & M9 you could have purchased a new Phase 1 camera, high mp back and lens or a new Hasselblad back or demo H4D 31mp camera and lens.

My feeling is Leica doesn't have the financial resources and design team to pull it off. My guess is they are farming the design out to a third party and Leica doesn't have the expertise to know good and bad in design. Just my guess. Whatever it is Leica isn't in the same class as even Canon and Nikon much less the MF makers. Again my opinion after using Leica for forty four years I'd they exist on name not quality and innovation.

Leica isn't the same company it was in the 60's and before. Mybequipment I bought in the 60's never gave problems but my most recent equipment has been less than stellar in reliability. Of all the gear I've owned and used heavily in my business over the fourcshd a half decades the least reliable was a pair of Rollei 3003's which were mechanical disasters and the nextis my late model Leica M lenses and body. Oh yes I would say a close 2nd to the Rollei equipment was my Leicaflex SL bodies. I had two regular SL's and a MOT. One or two were in the shop at all times.
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Old 09-04-2011   #103
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I'd keep the film Leicas and buy a Nikon D700 for digital. OK, you'll need a complete set of Nikon lenses, but you can buy old MF lenses for peanuts.
This is exactly what I have done.

For any couples "wanting" film work (I may soon not even mention the word "film" and just show the images - the couples can decide for themselves) I have my M7s and Rolleiflex. For anyone wanting hard/fast digital stuff - I've got my D700s - I can't (after my M8 experience) go back to Leica digital right now even if I wanted to without selling all my Nikon gear to just get the money for an M9 body (and a half).

I honestly thought Leica had gotten their act together (per se) when they released the M9 - it's now well into its lifecycle and while I know that not every M9 (or M9P) has issues, I just need something, as Phil has said, that is a bit more reliable for the $7000 I'd be spending.

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Old 09-04-2011   #104
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I don't think Leicas problem is the sensor as much as it is design and execution of the camera. Hasselblad uses a Kodak sensor and hot and dead pixels are virtually non existent. I think Phase used some of the Kodak sensors without issues.
This is what I found confusing because the Kodak DCS 14 ans SLRs never had an issue with pixels. And the Leicas use Kodak sensors as well but less than half the size of the medium format ones which should mean that the Leicas have fewer manufacturing defects than the larger models.

Regardless, it's just not right for Leica to be producing and selling such a product at such a price without taking care of the problem itself. We need more camera and service for the money we spend.

Leica can't ride the wave of their past service and reliability forever. I'm eagerly awaiting to see what happens in a few days after the first M9 warranties are up and how the successive M9 users are treated when they have to pay for repairs.

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Old 09-04-2011   #105
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I think you'll see a flood of M9's as the warranties end. I also think you're right that Leica can't ride in past reputation forever. There are too many other digital alternatives for the same or less money without the issues. I've used Leica M's for forty four years and would have bought a digital version if I had felt it was reliable and the bugs had been worked out before hitting the market. For $7k I'm not about to become Leicas beta tester.
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Old 09-04-2011   #106
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The only issues I have had with the M9 were with taking a photo immediately during wake-up, and a shutter fault.

My M9 will occasionally take a black image if I try to press the shutter button all the way down when the camera is in sleep mode. If I hold the button down, the camera seems to wake up after a few seconds, but it only takes a black image. This does not happen under any other circumstance, so I make sure that I wake up the camera with a half-press before I take a photo.

The shutter fault was a bit of a surprise. At first it started to recock itself immediatley after taking a photo, even though I was in discreet mode. About ten images later, it locked up and I couldn't take any more photos. Everything else worked except for the shutter.

I took it to our local Leica techicians - Camera Clinic in Melbourne - and they told me that the recocking motor had become jammed, but they would need to replace the shutter mechanism to be sure. They unjammed the camera and gave it back to me, and when the new shutter arrived they replaced it. Not only that, but they cleaned it up and replaced the black tape I had on the engraving and red dot! Now that's service.

Since then my M9 has worked perfectly. I haven't had any experience with dead pixels (touch wood), despite having taken the M9 to Japan last year.
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Old 09-04-2011   #107
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This is a malicious bashing post plain and simple. Leica will remap a sensor within a week without charge. And it is desinformation that other sensors do not have pixel loss.

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Originally Posted by Phil_F_NM View Post
This is what I found confusing because the Kodak DCS 14 ans SLRs never had an issue with pixels. And the Leicas use Kodak sensors as well but less than half the size of the medium format ones which should mean that the Leicas have fewer manufacturing defects than the larger models.

Regardless, it's just not right for Leica to be producing and selling such a product at such a price without taking care of the problem itself. We need more camera and service for the money we spend.

Leica can't ride the wave of their past service and reliability forever. I'm eagerly awaiting to see what happens in a few days after the first M9 warranties are up and how the successive M9 users are treated when they have to pay for repairs.

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Old 09-04-2011   #108
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This is a malicious bashing post plain and simple. Leica will remap a sensor within a week without charge. And it is desinformation that other sensors do not have pixel loss.
Absolutely not! Have you had your Leica out for almost 3 months for this very error? I did. Almost all of them out here have been sent to Leica and have been away for well over a month.

I never said that other sensors do not have pixel problems. I don't use absolutes because there are always exceptions. What I'm saying is that the incident rate at which this problem affects the Leica digital cameras is unacceptable for their cost and lack of continued warranty support.

Perhaps it is different there in the Netherlands but here in the USA, Leica service is very slow. We aren't offered any warranty upgrades (aside from the M8u program.)

So again, I pose the question to you: could you please let the rest of us know how you get a Leica M8 or M9 stuck pixel fixed by Leica within a week? Further, could you let the rest of us know how you get extensions to your warranty? And how do you get service as a courtesy with an out of warranty M8or M9? You'd be helping out the whole Leica shooting community if you passed along this information.

Again, this is not a malicious thread at all, merely one that reiterates the truth about the reliability of some Leica cameras and the experiences that some of us have had with their service.

We all look forward to your reply!
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Old 09-04-2011   #109
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No i have not. My M9 came down with a motherboard problem once and Leica immediately offered me a loaner M9 as they could not return it in a week due to lack of a spare part. And no, I am not a professional. And I have two M8s since 2006 and an M 9 since 2009 and close knowledge of six other digital M cameras in my family and with friends and I have never seen a pixel problem on any of them. One of the M 8s developed a shutter fault out of warranty. Leica returned it in a week without charge.
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Old 09-04-2011   #110
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well, since I'm a pretty old fart who's looking to purchase an M9, who doesn't have an endless stream of buckeroos ($US), I can say that this thread, at least to me, is absolutely NOT malicious bashing. Instead, it is and has been enormously helpful!. I've been over to the Leica forum and there is a whole thread devoted to reliability issues. So...

If I'm gonna plunk down $7k of my hard earned retirement income - irrespective of whether or not I sell my Nikon gear - I have the right to expect the thing to work straight away, out of the box, without issues, and to do it for at least as long as my refurbished D700 I got from Adorama, almost two years now w/o a single glitch. What? I have to transfer my pics to my computer first to ensure I don't lose my data, and then I've got to reformat the SD card in the camera???

I think I'll just get an Oly E-P3 LOL

tony

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Old 09-04-2011   #111
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If you use the magnifying glass of the Internet as your yardstick you'll never buy anything worthwhile, I fear.
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Old 09-04-2011   #112
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Your good experience with Leica service on your digital cameras is not necessarily the norm. Our local Leica dealer here in Philly has had to send 3 M9 bodies back within a month (mine will be the fourth) for pixel issues. Mine also has the shutter issue.
I found my first glaring hot pixel in my M9 only a few days after I purchased it new from a Leica dealer and upon returning it, I was not offered a loaner camera. In fact, Leica billed me for shipping, so we may be talking about two different companies. What I've seen here in the states with Leica service is that they are unbelievably slow. They have had my M8 for 2 full months this week and that is for a CLA plus rangefinder recalibration. And the charge? $630 USD + shipping. Hardly a week, hardly courtesy. I still don't have it back and do not know when it will arrive.

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Worthwhile???
Old 09-04-2011   #113
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Worthwhile???

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If you use the magnifying glass of the Internet as your yardstick you'll never buy anything worthwhile, I fear.
Cut me a break, sir. I've got an obscene $worth of Nikon gear. Nary a glitch; nada, zip, zero. Contax G2; second owner, nada, zip, zero.

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Old 09-04-2011   #114
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Cut me a break, sir. I've got an obscene $worth of Nikon gear. Nary a glitch; nada, zip, zero. Contax G2; second owner, nada, zip, zero.
What you have said is true and just a little scary.

I don't shoot digital except for a little Canon G11 to send things over the internet. But all my friends do and four of them are busy professional wedding photographers.

Non of them report significant problems with Nikon or Canon DSLRS.

Then I see these reports of mayhem with expensive Leica gear and it gives me pause; We know there has been problems with this stuff from the M8 to the latest iteration of the M9.

Why buy the stuff?

Is it the Leica name?

Is the product, from a Leica M8 or M9, so obviously exquisite that it overshadows it's problems and it's competition?

Last edited by Doug : 09-04-2011 at 18:11. Reason: quote
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Old 09-04-2011   #115
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If you use the magnifying glass of the Internet as your yardstick you'll never buy anything worthwhile, I fear.
How about for us who can't just afford to go out and *try* a Leica M9 with our hard earned dollars.

You know why I'm mad about this all? Because I intend to USE these cameras for part of my living. I'm not rich at all. Come from a family in which I'm the first to go to college but the most recent in a line of military that goes back to the US Civil War. I live almost hand-to-mouth off the stipend that I get from the GI Bill and a bit of disability that I earned when out in Iraq in 2004.

So, as a faithful user of Leica film cameras, I decided to bet on Leica and tightened my belt so I could use both of these fine photographic tools for a future in documentary which I'm well on my way towards. I'm pissed that Leica's working faithful users have to put up with their delays, bad service and finally un-reliable gear when it may mean the difference between us eating and going hungry. This is not the place to bash my choice of tool. I chose them because they suit my style of work the best and that's that.

The cost of the used M8 + new M9 were about 6 full months worth of my stipend and disability. But I stuck through it in order to use the gear that I wanted to use. I tightened my belt, ate a lot of beans and rice over the last 2 years and through that all I get sycophants saying Leica can do no wrong and naysayers saying that Leicas aren't worth anything as working tools. Both point to me making a "wrong" decision but it's one that is mine that fits perfectly with what I intend to do.

Phil Forrest

Last edited by Doug : 09-04-2011 at 18:14. Reason: calm
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Old 09-04-2011   #116
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literiter,

+1 sir, and Phil, +10
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Old 09-04-2011   #117
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This is what I found confusing because the Kodak DCS 14 ans SLRs never had an issue with pixels. And the Leicas use Kodak sensors as well but less than half the size of the medium format ones which should mean that the Leicas have fewer manufacturing defects than the larger models.
Phil Forrest
The Kodak DCS 14 and DCS SLR/N, and DCS SLR/C did not use Kodak CCD's. They used a CMOS sensor from a company bought out by Cypruss Semiconductor.

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/Dk...SM014K-EVAL-ND

and it looks like there is a Monochrome version of it. They used to sell for $6500 or so, for the Eval kit. Now you need to submit a request for a quote. All sensors will develop Hot Pixels. CMOS sensors have a lot of onboard processing, probably masks it out during the noise reduction phase of data acquisition.

Too funny, reading some of the threads in the Kodak DSLR forum at DPREVIEW,

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...thread=7373417

sounds like people complain about any brand that they buy. I remember the Nikon D1 and D2H Magenta Cast issue, and then the D2X color balance encryption uproar. Does anyone know if Nikon quit encrypting their files and hiding behind the Digital Millenium Copyright act to prevent other software makers from breaking the encryption? Nikon lost me as a customer when they pulled that nonsense.

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Old 09-04-2011   #118
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...Is the product, from a Leica M8 or M9, so obviously exquisite that it overshadows it's problems and it's competition?
Those are the lenses in the first place. At the exception of some mechanic Ms, Leica bodies have never been more reliable than their competitors. But some photogs like Leica lenses so much that they/we use them manually on Japanese dSLRs and we accept the limitations of M8 or M9. Also the latters are the only digital rangefinders available, setting aside the discontinued R-D1.
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Old 09-04-2011   #119
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Those are the lenses in the first place. At the exception of some mechanic Ms, Leica bodies have never been more reliable than their competitors. But some photogs like Leica lenses so much that they/we use them manually on Japanese dSLRs and we accept the limitations of M8 or M9. Also the latters are the only digital rangefinders available, setting aside the discontinued R-D1.
I have a M2 and a M4-P. They share a 35mm and 50mm Summicron which I use the most. The biggest advantage I have with these cameras would have to be no batteries, smallish and I have owned them for quite a few years.

The lenses are quite adequate and very small. Bonus! My Nikon F3 is a lot bigger and uses batteries.

Now for the most plebeian question; Why in heck can't I tell the difference between a picture taken with my ratty old Nikon and my Leica M2 both using 50mm lenses?
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Old 09-05-2011   #120
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What you have said is true and just a little scary.

I don't shoot digital except for a little Canon G11 to send things over the internet. But all my friends do and four of them are busy professional wedding photographers.

Non of them report significant problems with Nikon or Canon DSLRS.

Then I see these reports of mayhem with expensive Leica gear and it gives me pause; We know there has been problems with this stuff from the M8 to the latest iteration of the M9.

Why buy the stuff?

Is it the Leica name?

Is the product, from a Leica M8 or M9, so obviously exquisite that it overshadows it's problems and it's competition?
I think when you buy into a niche product like Leica, you have to expect a slightly bumpy ride versus the well trodden path of Nikon, Canon etc. They don't have the budgets of the two giants for QA, R&D, or indeed nation/worldwide service centres.

We pay that price for the pleasure of use and ownership. I have a Lumix G1, it does not go wrong, ever, but it does not compare to the pleasure of using my Leica M3.

A Ferrari, Maserati, Noble, Caterham or Lamborghini will not have the reliability of a Toyota, Honda, Ford etc. but I know which I'd have, given the choice.

If I was a pro though, I wouldn't shoot Leica, not just because I would fear the reliability, but also because it's so expensive to get 1 or 2 more as backups.
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