Shooting from the hip = morally questionable?

[tom.w.bn]

That weekend I strolled through the city and took some snaps. Tried shooting from the hip in hyperfocal distance setting. It works pretty well that I get the framing right. Here are some examples, nothing great but it shows how close I can get without being noticed (M8+28mm).

http://thomaswphotos.files.wordpress...8/l1041772.jpg

http://thomaswphotos.files.wordpress...8/l1041774.jpg

Showing those photos is absolutely not legal in Germany, but when I leave that aside I ask myself if it is morally legit to shoot someone from the hip. If I don't have the guts to raise the camera to the eye to take the photo, wouldn't it be better to just move on?

What do you think?

[RanceEric]

Originally Posted by tom.w.bn

Showing those photos is absolutely not legal in Germany

It's illegal to shoot people on the street in Germany? (I'm probably not reading this correctly)

[rxmd]

IMHO, either you develop the guts to take the camera to your face, becoming part of the scene whose decisive moments you're supposedly after. Or you are serious about taking covert pictures, and then you can also just strap a compact digicam to your belt sideways. When you don't have the guts to be seen photographing a scene, then it's probably worth asking what you're doing there and why you want to photograph it anyway.

Also, it's really difficult to get good pictures that way, and getting the framing right is only a small part of that.

[funkpilz]

Originally Posted by RanceEric

It's illegal to shoot people on the street in Germany? (I'm probably not reading this correctly)

No, the only law here deals with the publishing of photos. AFAIK shooting people is perfectly legal.
Still, Germany in many ways still is not a free country. We even have laws against blasphemy.

[rxmd]

Originally Posted by RanceEric

It's illegal to shoot people on the street in Germany? (I'm probably not reading this correctly)

No. What he means is that it illegal to publish pictures of people without their consent, outside certain exceptions.

Typical exceptions are journalism and photos of public figures.

Art is an exception too, but that gets messy, you might have to end up defending the artistic merit of your publication in court.

[daninjc]

Honestly I don't think it's morally questionable. No more than a long tele lens, or a flash in your face, or many other techniques that photographers use all the time.

If it's not illegal, then there's not much of a point in discussing its morality - it will be different for each person.

That said, I think it makes for boring/bad pictures most of the times. But there might be those very few occasions when it's the only way to go and with good timing/good luck it can produce a good image.

[JayM]

I used to shoot from the hip a lot more. I still do sometimes with young kids or teenagers who seem to get self conscious and freeze when they realize someone is watching them be silly/dorky/whatever. Using lenses that are really wide it can be neat to shoot verticals "from the knee" to get an interesting perspective on people when you're a foot or two away.

That said, lately I only really shoot from the hip if there's a practical reason for doing so. I try to not use my shyness as a reason for doing it. Even though there's nothing wrong with it, I feel like from an outsider's point of view you're on more solid ground explaining that you put the camera up to your face to photograph them because you like them, what they're doing, or whatever. Getting someone to understand why you photographed them from the hip might be a little harder and probably more difficult to do sincerely. Especially if you're telling them them that it's for one reason when really it's for another.

[tom.w.bn]

Originally Posted by RanceEric

It's illegal to shoot people on the street in Germany? (I'm probably not reading this correctly)

It's a difficult topic. Publishing those two photos on the internet is definitely illegal in Germany because the persons are clearly the main topic in this photo and they are no bystanders. Even taking the photo might be illegal (or not). Depends on the situation.
So I thought about it to post them here and I'm sure I will remove the photos again in a few days.

[zauhar]

This is an interesting question. Night before last I came across a man working in his shop, which was closed. It was an interesting scene inside, he was busy and did not notice me at first. I raised my camera to take his picture. He noticed me just before I snapped, and waved me off. He went back to work and I took the shot anyway. He saw what I had done and gave me a harsh look - I just shrugged and went on my way.

Everything I did was out in the open, but he clearly did not want to be photographed, and I went against his wishes. Did I do something immoral?

In your case, the people you photographed have their images recorded every day as they go up and down the street, by security cameras, some private and some public. Is that anymore immoral than what you did?

In the end, I have to say I am more comfortable dealing with an offended person who saw all I was up to, then to shoot surreptitiously. But I am not sure of the moral issue.

Randy

[krötenblender]

Originally Posted by RanceEric

It's illegal to shoot people on the street in Germany? (I'm probably not reading this correctly)

No, it not allowed to show the image to the public, if the persons, who are subject of the photos do not agree with publication. Making the photos is absolutely okay, publishing might bring you in trouble. "Illegal" is the wrong word, though, because that would mean, that you were not allowed to publish the photos, no matter if the people on the photo do allow it or not. That is, of course, not the case. - Our law is crazy and ridiculous regarding privacy, but not that ridiculous...

To the TO: No, it is not morally questionable. Consider this: is morally questionable (mq), to use a M9 in silent mode instead of a fat and loud DSLR with a lens the size of a bullhorn? Is it mq, not to honk a siren, so everybody knows, that you are taking pictures? No it's not, of course. You are in public and you can look in any direction you want to, and take pictures of what you see. Nothing of that is mq per se. BUT publishing some kinds of pictures might be. It is a question of common sense, just ask yourself, what an open minded person would allow. There are, of course, not so open minded people (especially in our home country...), but they have to live with it. Your criterion should be the common sense of an open minded and reasonable person.

[tom.w.bn]

Originally Posted by daninjc

That said, I think it makes for boring/bad pictures most of the times. But there might be those very few occasions when it's the only way to go and with good timing/good luck it can produce a good image.

That's also my experience so far.

[The Meaness]

If you feel like you are acting in a cowardly way, then change your attitude, behavior or both. Forget the perspective of us as fellow photographers. Don't live with an image of yourself that is so low.

I don't think shooting from the hip is more or less moral in and of itself as using a tripod or a uv filter. You should be choosing the technique that is best for the occasion. Shooting from the hip is fast, discrete, and utilizes a different perspective than if you shoot at eye level.

If being discrete is a crime than I guess we should all turn in our reto-looking, less threatening RFs and get us some big SLRs to wave in people's faces, right?

[tom.w.bn]

Thanks so far. Hope for more input and I will read it tomorrow.

[thegman]

If shooting from the hip, so you're not seen is morally questionable, then surely so is blacking out the red dot etc? Personally I see no big deal with either, it's just taking photos, how you choose to do it is your business, no-one else's.

[ThangNguyen]

Sorry for irrelevant question but I would like to know. What is the aperture you often set for taking picture from your hip? I have never been able to get a good one when I took from my hip.
Thanks!

[flip]

Shooting from the hip probably could get you detained in Japan, primarily for concern over activities of moral turpitude. I only do so when I know that I want the background perspective just so but don't want to crouch down to frame for whatever reason (ie, not wanting to draw attention). Usually results are less than satisfactory, but not always.

[FrankS]

Generally speaking, I'd say that questions of morality are best resolved by personal reflection. It would be incorrect to impost your morality on someone else and vice-versa. Questions of legality are a different story as there is societal consensus with them.

[daninjc]

I'd be very curious to see if anyone can post a pic taken from the hip that they think really work. Not a meh one - a good one I mean.
I don't have any myself to post, i dont shoot from the hip much at all.

[flip]

Originally Posted by FrankS

Generally speaking, I'd say that questions of morality are best resolved by personal reflection. It would be incorrect to impost your morality on someone else and vice-versa. Questions of legality are a different story as there is societal consensus with them.

It's an interesting take. I'd contend that legality does not require consensus - often merely a plurality of opinion - and is in fact the way that democratic societies impose one group's morality on another. I have no opinion to argue here as to whether that's good or bad.

I would like to see working hip-shots, however!

[JayM]

Originally Posted by daninjc

I'd be very curious to see if anyone can post a pic taken from the hip that they think really work. Not a meh one - a good one I mean.
I don't have any myself to post, i dont shoot from the hip much at all.

Here's a couple that I find to be at least ok (none are cropped):


EPSN2991 by JayMiz, on Flickr


EPSN2785 by JayMiz, on Flickr


EPSN1981 by JayMiz, on Flickr


EPSN2548 by JayMiz, on Flickr

It's definitely more miss than hit. I have been trying to be more deliberate and haven't been going for the Hail Marys lately but I probably should. I mean it's digital so what's the harm.

[FrankS]

You're right. Consensus was not the correct word.

[boffen]

As long as you would remove the picture from public upon request of the subject, I don't find it morally questionable regardless of shooting technique. There are certain cases where I would find it morally questionable to publish a photograph of someone, e.g. if the situation shows your subject in a particularly unflattering manner. I just ask myself whether or not I'd let someone else use that picture if I was the subject.

[daninjc]

Thanks JayM!

Originally Posted by JayM

Here's a couple that I find to be at least ok (none are cropped):

[The Meaness]

Originally Posted by daninjc

I'd be very curious to see if anyone can post a pic taken from the hip that they think really work. Not a meh one - a good one I mean.
I don't have any myself to post, i dont shoot from the hip much at all.

I'm no master, but pleased with these of my own:

R-D1 + CV 15

[back alley]

i asked a priest, a rabbi and a boy scout and they all said it was ok!