Go Back   Rangefinderforum.com > Cameras / Gear / Photography > Leicas and other Leica Mount Cameras > Leica M Lenses and Images

View Poll Results: M9/Summilux OR M8.2/Noctilux
M8.2 w/ 50mm Noctilux f1 61 16.14%
M9 w/ 50mm Summilux pre-asph f1.4 317 83.86%
Voters: 378. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes

M9/Summilux OR M8/Noctilux
Old 05-10-2011   #1
purewire
Registered User
 
purewire is offline
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 13
M9/Summilux OR M8/Noctilux

A few weeks ago I purchased the M8.2 at a great price. Resell value on the camera has gone up quite a bit since then. I have also been saving up for a Noctilux while using a CV Nokton f1.1 to hold me over. The weight can be a burden at times but the images are great for what I want to do.

Recently I came across a used M9 at a pretty decent price as well. The condition is almost new. If I go with the M9, I will be going for a used Summilux 50mm pre-asph.

There are pros and cons to both choices. Noctilux prices are sky high these days. A summilux is an excellent lens that is much easier to carry around but not quite as "magical". What would you do?
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-10-2011   #2
mabelsound
Registered User
 
mabelsound's Avatar
 
mabelsound is offline
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Upstate NY
Age: 46
Posts: 6,000
M9/Lux. And start your savings over for a future Noct!
__________________
flickr insta twitter
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-10-2011   #3
Photon42
burn the box
 
Photon42's Avatar
 
Photon42 is offline
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 568
I'd take a Summilux which can focus down to 0.7m along with the M9 - but how important is this for you? If you want a Noctilux, a Summilux won't do. If you want an M9, an M8 won't do.
__________________
My Gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-10-2011   #4
jsrockit
Moderator
 
jsrockit's Avatar
 
jsrockit is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: NYC
Age: 42
Posts: 16,916
Hmmm, 67.5mm Noctilux on a outdated camera or a 50mm Summilux on a up to date camera... I'll take the latter. Buy the Summilux used and use the cash saved on a Nokton.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-10-2011   #5
fates
Registered User
 
fates's Avatar
 
fates is offline
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 77
Get the M9 and keep the Nokton 50/1.1. With the savings you can buy a reasonably priced sports car.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-10-2011   #6
ferider
Registered User
 
ferider's Avatar
 
ferider is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 10,908
Why would you pick a tele for the M8 when 50 obviously is your favorite FOV ?

Why not M8.2 + 35/1.2 or 40/1.4 ? Name tag ?
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-10-2011   #7
purewire
Registered User
 
purewire is offline
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferider View Post
Why would you pick a tele for the M8 when 50 obviously is your favorite FOV ?

Why not M8.2 + 35/1.2 or 40/1.4 ? Name tag ?
Well the intent will be to pickup the M9 in the future someday. I can live with the crop on the M8.2 until then.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-10-2011   #8
Benjamin Marks
Registered User
 
Benjamin Marks is offline
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Vermont
Posts: 2,434
M9 + anything. The Noctilux is a great lens, but something of a special purpose thing. The M9 is a great camera and works really well with a wide variety of M and LTM glass. I guess I should put in the obligatory "unless you need f:1" - but really, how often do you really need f:1. In my case it is about a dozen times a year out of 10,000 frames or so.
__________________
Benjamin’s Gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-10-2011   #9
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
 
Pherdinand's Avatar
 
Pherdinand is offline
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: by the river called the Gender
Age: 39
Posts: 7,616
what would i do, i tell you what i would do, i'd get a bessa, a voigt nokton, and the whole friggin family for a nice two weeks on bora bora!
__________________
Happy New Year, Happy New Continent!
eye contact eye
My RFF Foolery
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-10-2011   #10
250swb
-
 
250swb is offline
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: The Peak District, United Kingdom
Posts: 860
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin Marks View Post
M9 + anything. The Noctilux is a great lens, but something of a special purpose thing. The M9 is a great camera and works really well with a wide variety of M and LTM glass. I guess I should put in the obligatory "unless you need f:1" - but really, how often do you really need f:1. In my case it is about a dozen times a year out of 10,000 frames or so.
+1, you summed everything up superbly

Steve
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-10-2011   #11
outback
Registered User
 
outback is offline
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Monza (Italy)
Age: 62
Posts: 20
No doubt: M9 + Noctilux...!!!!
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-10-2011   #12
The Meaness
Registered User
 
The Meaness's Avatar
 
The Meaness is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: MD, USA
Age: 32
Posts: 247
Depends how much you like that 67mm fov using the nokton on the M8.2 - if you are really feeling it, maybe using the M9 will mess with your mojo. I have noticed that my go-to lenses have changed somewhat since moving from the R-D1 to the M8.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-10-2011   #13
Mister E
-
 
Mister E is offline
Join Date: May 2010
Location: I <3 NCPS
Posts: 1,640
Forget the Cosina glass. Get the Summilux. The latest one before ASPH. Great lens, B&H just had one last night for $1500, which is a great price. It's sharper than the Nokton, has more character and is MUCH smaller. It's perfect on my M9.

Having had the Noctilux it was amazing, but not worth the size or the 1m MFD.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-10-2011   #14
MCTuomey
Registered User
 
MCTuomey's Avatar
 
MCTuomey is offline
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: U.S.
Age: 62
Posts: 3,080
If Noctilux magic is what you must have then, yes, get one coupled to an M8. Especially if the crop factor is liveable. The M8 files may be mpx- and iso-challenged versus those of the M9, but they are still very good.
__________________
--Mike (confirmed midget imagist on stilts)

Bill Pierce's "photographer's proposition": I saw something wonderful, let me show it to you.


Fuji X
Leica M
Canon EOS
Hasselblad 503CW
Minolta Autocord


My Flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-10-2011   #15
kdemas
ʎlʇuǝɹǝɟɟıp sƃuıɥʇ ǝǝS
 
kdemas's Avatar
 
kdemas is offline
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,700
I really enjoyed the Noct on the M8. Slight tele effect was an interesting perspective.

Output from the M8 is still outstanding as long as you know it's strengths and weaknesses going in.
__________________
------------------------------------------------------------
Open Iris. Life, Captured.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-10-2011   #16
maddoc
... likes film.
 
maddoc's Avatar
 
maddoc is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: 三鷹市
Age: 50
Posts: 7,030
The Summilux is more than sufficient for low-light, focuses down to 0.7m and is small compared to a Noctilux. However, when you are after the "look" of the Noctilux than a Nokton or Summilux will not do... (I had sold my 50mm Summilux-M latest pre-ASPH to finance a Noctilux and never regretted the switch)
__________________
- Gabor

flickr
pBase
blog
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-10-2011   #17
Mister E
-
 
Mister E is offline
Join Date: May 2010
Location: I <3 NCPS
Posts: 1,640
I'd rather shoot an M9 with no lens than an M8 with any lens.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-10-2011   #18
maddoc
... likes film.
 
maddoc's Avatar
 
maddoc is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: 三鷹市
Age: 50
Posts: 7,030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister E View Post
I'd rather shoot an M9 with no lens than an M8 with any lens.
... the M9 - pinhole project !! Anybody done that ?
__________________
- Gabor

flickr
pBase
blog
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-10-2011   #19
deirdre
Registered User
 
deirdre is offline
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Menlo Park, CA
Posts: 231
I have an M8 and I love it to pieces, but if I had the scratch, I'd get the M9.
__________________
My gallery Flickr MobileMe
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-10-2011   #20
LeicaTom
Watch that step!
 
LeicaTom's Avatar
 
LeicaTom is offline
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Winter Haven Florida
Age: 52
Posts: 2,536
Quote:
Originally Posted by memphis View Post
m9 and summilux or canon 50/1.2 ---- seems a much better choice
Yeah I second that choice.......M8.2 and a Canon f1.2/50 ~ M9's will come down in price in the next 2 years, (just like M8's did) and the Canon f1.2/50 is an amazing lens, still affordable but, I think only in a short while, they will be $1,000 + in minty condition soon, once the rest of the people shooting realize they don't need a Noctilux.........
(just a waste of good money in my personal opinion)

I have never liked the look a Noctilux gives :/

Tom
__________________
WW 2 Leica Historian and Rare Military Leica Camera and Lens Consultant Services (for Civilian and Military Engraved Leica IIIC "Stepper" and IIIC K models made between 1940 to 1946)

I'm a Retro PinUp Photographer using vintage M39/LTM Leica/ CZJ Sonnar/ Nippon Kogaku and Canon lenses with a Leica M8 Digital
I'm also a Vintage Volkswagen Collector, Driver and Enthusiast ~ I own a 1957 "Oval Window" Beetle named "Blauchen" (oV!Vo) Beep!

http://www.modelmayhem.com/118
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-10-2011   #21
maddoc
... likes film.
 
maddoc's Avatar
 
maddoc is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: 三鷹市
Age: 50
Posts: 7,030
I wonder what is amazing about a Canon 50/1.2 used at full aperture ... (Maybe I have only used and seen bad copies)
__________________
- Gabor

flickr
pBase
blog
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-10-2011   #22
Mister E
-
 
Mister E is offline
Join Date: May 2010
Location: I <3 NCPS
Posts: 1,640
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeicaTom View Post
Yeah I second that choice.......M8.2 and a Canon f1.2/50 ~ M9's will come down in price in the next 2 years, (just like M8's did) and the Canon f1.2/50 is an amazing lens, still affordable but, I think only in a short while, they will be $1,000 + in minty condition soon, once the rest of the people shooting realize they don't need a Noctilux.........
(just a waste of good money in my personal opinion)

I have never liked the look a Noctilux gives :/

Tom
Neither the Canon 50/1.2 nor the 50/1.1 Nokton are in the same class as the Noctilux or Summilux. It's a nice lens, but very much a substitute an equal.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-10-2011   #23
Mister E
-
 
Mister E is offline
Join Date: May 2010
Location: I <3 NCPS
Posts: 1,640
Quote:
Originally Posted by maddoc View Post
I wonder what is amazing about a Canon 50/1.2 used at full aperture ... (Maybe I have only used and seen bad copies)
Maybe it softness, nervous backgrounds or crummy feel?
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-11-2011   #24
bizarrius
the great
 
bizarrius's Avatar
 
bizarrius is offline
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: house
Age: 30
Posts: 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister E View Post
I'd rather shoot an M9 with no lens than an M8 with any lens.

now that would be a dusty project!
__________________
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.

i am here: www.bizarri.us
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-11-2011   #25
Roger Hicks
Registered User
 
Roger Hicks is offline
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Aquitaine
Posts: 21,956
Yet another vote for the M9. A lot more versatility for the money.

Cheers,

R.
__________________
Go to www.rogerandfrances.eu for a whole new website
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-11-2011   #26
Brian Sweeney
Registered User
 
Brian Sweeney's Avatar
 
Brian Sweeney is offline
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 14,928
The ISO 2500 that I'm getting out of my M9 looks like the ISO 640 from my late production M8. The M9 is new. You are picking up more than a full stop of usable ISO with the M9. Put the 35/1.2 or 50/1.1 Noktons on it, you will have better low-light performance compared with the M8 with Noctilux.

The problem with the Canon 50/1.2 is the type of glass used. It Etches easily when lubricants from the helical outgas and deposit on it. The Black 50/1.8 has the same problem, for some reason the 50/1.4- not as much. I don;t know why, maybe different types of glass were used for different elements and the positioning is a factor.
I have had two Canon 50/1.2's, and sold them on RFF for under $300. One sold recently. They are simply not as good as the 50/1.1 Nokton and are not worth anywhere near the same price.

An M9 shot, ISO 2500, 1/6s, 35/1.2 wide-open, handheld in a Planetarium.



Note the "true black" is at the bottom right of the image. The Planetarium projection depicts looking at a Galaxy. The bottom right is the room itself, blocking part of the projection.

Last edited by Brian Sweeney : 05-11-2011 at 02:06.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-11-2011   #27
Mister E
-
 
Mister E is offline
Join Date: May 2010
Location: I <3 NCPS
Posts: 1,640
Man if the M8 was as bad as the M9 is at 2500, but only at 640 I would throw it in the trash can. I've shot the crap out of digital at high ISOs. Even got a shot or two out of the D700 at 25,600 that was great, but from what I've seen yet I won't be using the M9 above 800. Even converted to black and white I'm not sure I could be happy. Neopan 1600 looks better.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-11-2011   #28
Brian Sweeney
Registered User
 
Brian Sweeney's Avatar
 
Brian Sweeney is offline
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 14,928
Black is the lower right of the image, what appears to be noise in the main body of the image is a projection of a starfield. Black is black as it should be in the lower right of the frame.

Here is another ISO 2500 shot.



I find it perfectly usable.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-11-2011   #29
MCTuomey
Registered User
 
MCTuomey's Avatar
 
MCTuomey is offline
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: U.S.
Age: 62
Posts: 3,080
Quote:
Originally Posted by deirdre View Post
I have an M8 and I love it to pieces, but if I had the scratch, I'd get the M9.
Same here. I made the switch after selling some gear and saving. I realize I have some learning to do, but comparatively the M8's files process well and with less work than the M9's files. Sharper and closer to "finish" shape out of the camera (better WB for example), sweet-spot size (quicker to process), print really well (surprisingly so at higher iso's).

One lone vote for the M8 and Noctilux. I'd shoot that combo in a heartbeat.
__________________
--Mike (confirmed midget imagist on stilts)

Bill Pierce's "photographer's proposition": I saw something wonderful, let me show it to you.


Fuji X
Leica M
Canon EOS
Hasselblad 503CW
Minolta Autocord


My Flickr

Last edited by MCTuomey : 05-11-2011 at 06:56.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-11-2011   #30
MCTuomey
Registered User
 
MCTuomey's Avatar
 
MCTuomey is offline
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: U.S.
Age: 62
Posts: 3,080
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister E View Post
Man if the M8 was as bad as the M9 is at 2500, but only at 640 I would throw it in the trash can.
Excellent idea, except throw it in my trashcan, please.
__________________
--Mike (confirmed midget imagist on stilts)

Bill Pierce's "photographer's proposition": I saw something wonderful, let me show it to you.


Fuji X
Leica M
Canon EOS
Hasselblad 503CW
Minolta Autocord


My Flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-11-2011   #31
mikenic
BundyBro
 
mikenic's Avatar
 
mikenic is offline
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Mooloolaba, Qld, Australia
Posts: 43
Lenses endure but camera bodies come and go.

The M8 is yesterday's child (although it is still an excellent camera), and the M9 will also be in this position one day.

The lenses however will last through many changes of bodies. The M8 I have my f:1.0 Noctilux on now is the third Leica body for me with this lens.

If the Noctilux "look" suits your style of shooting and vision of the world, then go for that lens. Outright speed may not necessarily be the primary reason people buy it (bokeh, micro contrast etc). WRT the camera body, the faster shutter in the M8 may just help.

The Noctilux is not for everyone, but only you know if it fits your view of the world. If so, then anything else is a compromise. Develop style with a Noctilux and M8 now and save up and trade the M8 later for (eg) the M10. This may give you the ultimate combination in the end. The base lens signature will (mostly) remain the same on either sized sensor, with vignetting and effective focal length as the obvious major departures.
FWIW
Mike
__________________
Regards
Mikenic

M3 s/s, M9-P Chrome, LX3
------------------------

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bundybro/
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-11-2011   #32
Mister E
-
 
Mister E is offline
Join Date: May 2010
Location: I <3 NCPS
Posts: 1,640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Sweeney View Post
Black is the lower right of the image, what appears to be noise in the main body of the image is a projection of a starfield. Black is black as it should be in the lower right of the frame.

Here is another ISO 2500 shot.



I find it perfectly usable.
Are you shooting DNG? What kind of NR are you using? I have not see anything this clean even out of ISO 1600. I am speaking from my experience with my M9 as I just picked one up. It must have been pretty dark to shoot ISO 2500 in there with a f/1.2 and 1.1 lens. I wasn't saying your star/nebula/whatever image was full of noise, I was saying my images at 2500 were unusable, but perhaps I am leaving a step out in the processing.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-11-2011   #33
Mister E
-
 
Mister E is offline
Join Date: May 2010
Location: I <3 NCPS
Posts: 1,640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Negative View Post
I don't get the high-ISO drama. Okay, so the files from the M8/M9 aren't as smooth as from a Canon or Nikon DSLR - but keep in mind that smoothness wipes out detail (not to mention the AA filter on these cameras as well). The key, really, is proper exposure. And if you do any image adjustments - you want to go darker and NOT lighter (which will bring out noise). This was on the M8 at ISO1250, no NR:

(forgive the thing in front of her face - I was so blotto it's a miracle this shot came out at all!)

Yeah, that is absolutely terrible. This is ISO 25600 out of a D700, not 2500, 25600, that's 3.3 stops beyond what the M9 can even do. There is still detail in the shot too, at least as much as your example!


ISO 25600 by NateVenture, on Flickr

I don't expect this performance out of the M9, but this is why people are complaining. I still need more time with my M9 but thus far I've only been happy with 800 out of my M9 while 3200 was better in most ways on my D700.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-11-2011   #34
Mister E
-
 
Mister E is offline
Join Date: May 2010
Location: I <3 NCPS
Posts: 1,640
After looking at the few files I have above ISO 800 from my M9 it seems that it is imperative that the white balance be set correctly. After fixing the white balance the shots look worlds better as the noise doesn't stick out so badly.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-11-2011   #35
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
 
jaapv's Avatar
 
jaapv is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Hellevoetsluis,Netherlands
Posts: 7,995
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister E View Post
Yeah, that is absolutely terrible. This is ISO 25600 out of a D700, not 2500, 25600, that's 3.3 stops beyond what the M9 can even do. There is still detail in the shot too, at least as much as your example!


ISO 25600 by NateVenture, on Flickr

I don't expect this performance out of the M9, but this is why people are complaining. I still need more time with my M9 but thus far I've only been happy with 800 out of my M9 while 3200 was better in most ways on my D700.
What did you do to that poor man? Hand him an airsick bag or two immediately!!
__________________
Jaap








jaapvphotography
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-11-2011   #36
Brian Sweeney
Registered User
 
Brian Sweeney's Avatar
 
Brian Sweeney is offline
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 14,928
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister E View Post
Are you shooting DNG? What kind of NR are you using? I have not see anything this clean even out of ISO 1600. I am speaking from my experience with my M9 as I just picked one up. It must have been pretty dark to shoot ISO 2500 in there with a f/1.2 and 1.1 lens. I wasn't saying your star/nebula/whatever image was full of noise, I was saying my images at 2500 were unusable, but perhaps I am leaving a step out in the processing.
I am shooting 16-bit DNG in the M9, and using Lightroom 3.3 to convert to JPEG. I am not doing anything special: import the DNG into Lightroom, and export it to JPEG. Anything in between is default Lightroom settings, I have not created any profiles.

The museum was "no flash photography allowed" as they used a lot of video projection. The attendant stated "I have to ask you to turn off the flash of your camera". When I told her it did not have one- she asked "How does it take any pictures!"
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-11-2011   #37
jsrockit
Moderator
 
jsrockit's Avatar
 
jsrockit is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: NYC
Age: 42
Posts: 16,916
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Sweeney View Post
When I told her it did not have one- she asked "How does it take any pictures!"
Come on lady, it's a magical Leica!
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-12-2011   #38
Lord Fluff
Registered User
 
Lord Fluff is offline
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 149
For anyone constrained by budget, the Noctilux is not 'worth it' - it's a cult lens with some special qualities (including being often very stiff and slow to focus, which put me right off it), so the Nokton 1.1 will do you fine if f1.1 is where you like to stay.

A pre-asph lux is a more flexible prospect as it can be sharp and (pretty much) doesn't display focus shift - certainly not the major shifts that the Nokton does.

But why are you asking about two different effective focal lengths (FOV's)? If the M8/50 combo suits you for what you do, the M9/50 combo will likely be too wide, so it's more like a 75mm lens you will need - in which case the CV75/1.8 is a staggeringly good lens for the money, in certain respects beating the legendary 75mm Summilux (also a gem, but way pricey, and also a pig to handle).

As others have noted, high iso on the M9 trumps the M8 convincingly - not to mention that I've experience random banding with the M8 at 1250, even in daytime conditions.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-13-2011   #39
maddoc
... likes film.
 
maddoc's Avatar
 
maddoc is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: 三鷹市
Age: 50
Posts: 7,030
About the relatively poor noise performance of M8 / M9 compared to D700 / 5D ... I have yet to see one photo taken on film that comes even close to real 1600 ISO and in color ...
__________________
- Gabor

flickr
pBase
blog
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-13-2011   #40
Mister E
-
 
Mister E is offline
Join Date: May 2010
Location: I <3 NCPS
Posts: 1,640
Quote:
Originally Posted by maddoc View Post
About the relatively poor noise performance of M8 / M9 compared to D700 / 5D ... I have yet to see one photo taken on film that comes even close to real 1600 ISO and in color ...
What? http://www.flickr.com/search/?w=2309...=Natura%201600
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:29.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.