D-76 Stock vs 1:1
Old 03-14-2011   #1
ChrisP
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D-76 Stock vs 1:1

What difference will I get developing film in d-76 using stock vs 1:1? Anything noticeable?

Whats better for pushing film? I'm exposing hp5+ at 1600 right now. I plan to develope it as soon as my scanner arrives.

Will there be any difference as far as shadow detail goes for either one? And what about grain?

Thanks in advance
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Old 03-14-2011   #2
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1+1 gives a little better sharpness and a little less highlight contrast. I've never pushed film with D-76, but the stock solution is supposed to be better for pushing than the diluted. I think modern push-designed developers like Microphen and Tmax Developer are probably better for that. I use Tmax Developer and it gives great results pushing Tmax 400 to 1600 and pushing Tmax 3200. Haven't used it for HP-5.
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All we've got
Old 03-14-2011   #3
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All we've got

I've heard that d-76 is not the best for pushing but its all I've got locally. I'll see how this turns out.

If I really like shooting film after I deplete this stock I'll probably pick up 100ft of it online and get some microphen with it for pushing. Until than, D-76 it is!

P.s. RFF seems to have a fleet of extremely helpful chris's in the film section. Thanks to all of you!

Last edited by ChrisP : 03-14-2011 at 19:27. Reason: i forgot to say thanks
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Old 03-14-2011   #4
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I think a little less contrast. When you use it 1:1 the developer goes to completion, ie it's all used up. Thus the tendency to over develop is less. if you over develop you get more contrasty negatives. The advantage of useing it full strength is shorter development times.
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Old 03-14-2011   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisP View Post
I've heard that d-76 is not the best for pushing but its all I've got locally. I'll see how this turns out.

If I really like shooting film after I deplete this stock I'll probably pick up 100ft of it online and get some microphen with it for pushing. Until than, D-76 it is!

P.s. RFF seems to have a fleet of extremely helpful chris's in the film section. Thanks to all of you!
Just a few of us. Chris isn't our real name, its a title given the coolest, smartest RFF members
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Old 03-15-2011   #6
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Dear Chris,

Fractionally more speed for a given contrast (which will require a longer development time than stock), fractionally bigger grain, fractionally more sharpness.

Some say that it has some compensating effect (compression of mid-tones, reduction of highlight density) but I have never noticed this, and nor have my chums at Ilford.

I'm afraid that Beemermark is wrong about development going to completion. It doesn't. If it did, you'd get hoperlessly contrasty negatives. Besides, surprisingly many people use it 1+3, which argues rather strongly that as in almost all developers (Xtol being a curious exception) the developing agents are present in great excess.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 03-15-2011   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Hicks View Post
I'm afraid that Beemermark is wrong about development going to completion. It doesn't. If it did, you'd get hoperlessly contrasty negatives. Besides, surprisingly many people use it 1+3, which argues rather strongly that as in almost all developers (Xtol being a curious exception) the developing agents are present in great excess.

Roger is correct. D76 1+1 is well over half strength when developing is complete.

I only wanted to note that some developers (HC-110, Rodinal, various Pyro formulas) may also used used in low concentrations which are exhausted when developing is complete. This would be for stand developing, of course.

The main benefit to D76 1+1 is that you throw it away when you are done with the tank load, and save half the volume of D76. (D76 1+3 is often used for large tanks since they often have so much wasted volume).
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Old 03-15-2011   #8
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Sometimes I'm lazy and use D-76 stock, 24C for 6min or so for example with APX100 which demands well over 10 minutes in 20C and 1+1 dilution.
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Old 03-15-2011   #9
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You could just try two test rolls, one at stock and one diluted 1:1 and see which one gives a better scan or wet print.
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Old 03-15-2011   #10
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Originally Posted by degruyl View Post
Roger is correct. D76 1+1 is well over half strength when developing is complete.

I only wanted to note that some developers (HC-110, Rodinal, various Pyro formulas) may also used used in low concentrations which are exhausted when developing is complete. This would be for stand developing, of course.

The main benefit to D76 1+1 is that you throw it away when you are done with the tank load, and save half the volume of D76. (D76 1+3 is often used for large tanks since they often have so much wasted volume).
Even then, I suspect that in some cases it's oxidation that kills them off. Of course that's a purely academic point, because you don't really care why a developer stops working.

It is facinating to reflect on how little developing agent is required. As an extreme example, consider a 2-bath developer in which the first bath is 5 g/litre of metol and 100 g/litre of anhydrous sodium sulphite to act as a preservative.

Development in such a bath takes 15-20 minutes, but if you use it as a fore-bath for 2-4 minutes, tip it out, and tip in Part 2, 6 g/litre of anhydrous carbonate and 100 g/litre of anhydrous sodium sulphite, development will be complete in another 3 minutes or so.

In other words, all the developing agent you have is what soaks into the emulsion in 3 minutes, plus whatever wets the film, reel(s) and tank: maybe 25 ml for a 450 ml two-reel stainless tank, or 0.0625 g of metol per film.

It's been decades since this was my habitual developer, but I'm pretty sure that one of its attractions was that each bath kept half way to forever and could be re-used indefinitely. Much like Diafine, really, though the subject of fewer exaggerated claims.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 03-15-2011   #11
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Personally, the thing that's most obvious to me is the increased sharpness when diluting 1+1
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Old 03-15-2011   #12
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Originally Posted by ibcrewin View Post
Personally, the thing that's most obvious to me is the increased sharpness when diluting 1+1
This may be absolutely fundamental. I suspect that we all notice different things, i.e. that our visual priorities are different. One may notice more sharpness; another, bigger grain. There's meat for a PhD thesis in this!

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Old 03-15-2011   #13
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Anyone using 1+3?
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Old 03-15-2011   #14
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How long does this stuff keep on the shelf??

Is it like all the rest where you need to keep all the air out that you can?
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Old 03-15-2011   #15
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D76 stores OK - but I tend to dump it after 3-4 weeks if I haven't used it up. It tend to get more active and "rough" up the texture of the film. Harsher contrast - highlights a bit fried.
One gallon of D76, as 1:1 gives me 5 runs of 1500 ml (Paterson 5 reel tanks). Once I have shot 5-10 rolls - I mix the D76, process and then I have the impetus to shoot the other 15 rolls quickly! Great reason for "wasting" TriX - and if you need to shoot a "filler" roll - just walk around the neighborhood and snap away. Funnily enough - these shots often turn out quite interesting too as you have no preconcieved notions of what you want to get on film.
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Old 03-15-2011   #16
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D76 stores OK - but I tend to dump it after 3-4 weeks if I haven't used it up. It tend to get more active and "rough" up the texture of the film. Harsher contrast - highlights a bit fried.
One gallon of D76, as 1:1 gives me 5 runs of 1500 ml (Paterson 5 reel tanks). Once I have shot 5-10 rolls - I mix the D76, process and then I have the impetus to shoot the other 15 rolls quickly! Great reason for "wasting" TriX - and if you need to shoot a "filler" roll - just walk around the neighborhood and snap away. Funnily enough - these shots often turn out quite interesting too as you have no preconcieved notions of what you want to get on film.
Dear Tom,

According to Ilford research, this bit is REALLY weird. It cycles up and down in activity, the frequency depending on all kinds of factors including the water used, the storage temperature, and (according to one jaundiced Ilford researcher) ' quite possibly the phase of the moon'.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 03-15-2011   #17
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Sorry if this is a bit off topic. I have been mixing D-76h - just metal, sodium sulfite, and borax. This one, like most of the do it yourself formulas, calls for 2 g borax. An old Jacobson & Jacobson developing book lists borax or metaborate. Anyone tried metaborate instead of borax?
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Old 03-15-2011   #18
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Borax tends to give slightly lower contrast - the Kodalk ups the contrast a bit. It is a bit of trial and error. I did some experiments with spit D23 and also with Stoeckler developer and substituting Borax with Kodalk -and as D23 is a bit of a "flat" developer - it increased the contrast visibly. With Stoeckler and D76 the change was very slight.
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Old 03-15-2011   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Hicks View Post
Dear Tom,

According to Ilford research, this bit is REALLY weird. It cycles up and down in activity, the frequency depending on all kinds of factors including the water used, the storage temperature, and (according to one jaundiced Ilford researcher) ' quite possibly the phase of the moon'.

Cheers,

R.
I've always wondered about this. I'm going to have to track the tide and the moon (and possibly the age of Aquarius) for a year now, thanks Roger. Do you think this could also apply to HC-110?
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Old 03-16-2011   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Hicks View Post
I'm afraid that Beemermark is wrong about development going to completion. It doesn't. If it did, you'd get hoperlessly contrasty negatives. Besides, surprisingly many people use it 1+3, which argues rather strongly that as in almost all developers (Xtol being a curious exception) the developing agents are present in great excess.
There is activity left in a litre of D76 1+1 after developing 4 135 rolls. Kodak's times for D76 1+1 are for 2 135 rolls in 1L of solution, but you can develop 4 rolls in 1 L if you increase the time 10%. If you develop 4 rolls of high key scenes and then try to re-use the solution for 4 more rolls of high key scenes, you then start to reach exhaustion and your development will be inconsistent.

One of my favourite ways to develop Plus-X is 2 rolls at a time in a litre of Xtol 1+4. As long as you use 100 mL of stock / roll, you'll be fine. This approaches exhaustion; I have noted that 20, 30, and 40 minute times show hardly any differences in densities.

I've gone as far as using Xtol 1+10 with a single 135 roll in a 2 L tank, but it didn't offer any clear advantage over 1+3 or 1+4.

Marty
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Old 03-16-2011   #21
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There is activity left in a litre of D76 1+1 after developing 4 135 rolls. Kodak's times for D76 1+1 are for 2 135 rolls in 1L of solution, but you can develop 4 rolls in 1 L if you increase the time 10%. If you develop 4 rolls of high key scenes and then try to re-use the solution for 4 more rolls of high key scenes, you then start to reach exhaustion and your development will be inconsistent.

Marty
YES! This is what I wanted to know! 4 rolls of d76 diluted 1+1 in a 1L tank. I'm going to try this this weekend.
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Old 03-16-2011   #22
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Ilford ID-11 is apparently very similar to D-76. Ilford literature suggests that a litre of ID-11 stock can be used to develop up to 10 rolls of 135x36 film, without replenishment, by increasing the development time by 10% for each subsequent roll. (Page 8 of the Ilford pdf.)

I did this for a while, for economy, but found I prefer the increased sharpness that comes with 1+1 and 1+3 dilutions.
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Old 03-16-2011   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ibcrewin View Post
YES! This is what I wanted to know! 4 rolls of d76 diluted 1+1 in a 1L tank. I'm going to try this this weekend.
Be careful... read Kodak's technical publication on D76 http://www.kodak.com/global/en/profe...bs/j78/j78.pdf says:

Quote:
If you use D-76 Developer diluted 1:1, dilute it just before
you use it, and discard it after processing the batch of film.
Before using the diluted developer, make certain that there
are no air bubbles in the solution. If air is coming out of the
solution and forming bubbles, let the solution stand until the
bubbles dissipate. Don’t reuse or replenish the diluted
solution. You can develop one 135-3 roll (80 square inches)
in 473 mL (16 ounces) or two rolls together in 946 mL
(one quart) of diluted developer. If you process one
135-36 roll in a 237 mL (8-ounce) tank or two 135-36 rolls
in a 473 mL (16-ounce) tank, increase the development time
by 10 percent (see the following tables).
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