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View Poll Results: Summicron v4 or Mamiya 6 (or maybe 7?)
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Apples vs Oranges: Summicron 35 v4 or Mamiya 6 (maybe 7)
Old 03-10-2010   #1
SimonSawSunlight
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Apples vs Oranges: Summicron 35 v4 or Mamiya 6 (maybe 7)

I've been looking for Mamiya 6's and 7's and I am very keen on one, but I still have this good offer for a nice version 4 35mm Summicron...

I find myself changing plans every day, every hour even. Now I want your opinions, maybe that helps.

Any remarks? (Except "Get a v3 Summicron, it's cheaper and WAY BETTER, THE V4 SUCKS HOW CAN YOU EVEN THINK ABOUT IT." I've been there.)
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Old 03-10-2010   #2
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Every second I have other plan for one body+one lens dream combo. You are not alone

Question is simple, do you need fast lens? Or f/4 and Neopan 1600 is fine for you. If so, go for 7.
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Old 03-10-2010   #3
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version 4 is a great lens but over hyped IMHO as is the Summilux 35. I've got the lux at the moment and I've just bought an Ultron 35 for €200 to replace it as it's just not my thing. I had one at the start of my rangefinder discovery and it was brilliant. Try one before you part with the silly money for v4's. Spend the saving toward the Mamiya.
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Old 03-10-2010   #4
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Go limit yourself. More gear does not make you happy. A single lens does not either. You seem to have a Leica already. Choose one camera body only and the summicron 35mmIV then you will run out of excuses and dampen the mind chatter. Samlpe the light and learn the hard way by buying film instead of gear.
It is not easy to stay out of the happy-consumer cliché. But your pictures are yours only.
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Old 03-10-2010   #5
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Just go with the 35mm Nokton f1.4. The 35mm Summicron v4 isn't anything special. I own one and it isn't magic. It's even a tad soft at f2. Use the extra money to save up a little more and get the mamiya 7. Or even better the 35mm Skopar f2.5. Slower. But a beautiful lens from everything I've seen.
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Old 03-10-2010   #6
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the v4 35 is a wonderful lens: mine was sharp at all stops, beautiful rendering, the most predictable dof across the frame of any 35mm lens i've used, small, and slightly unleica-like build. if you have the opportunity to get one at a good price, i'd recommend buying it. if it is not for you, you can sell it later at no loss and maybe even a bit of gain. especially if, once you have the 'cron, you're still thinking of that mamiya, and the money you have in the 'cron seems excessive for what you get from it.

or, think about what you print. do you want to print larger than your 35mm gear permits? do you need to print subjects with a lot of fine detail that carry the picture? if so, then i think a mamiya makes sense over another 35mm lens.
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Rolleiflex! :-)
Old 03-10-2010   #7
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Rolleiflex! :-)

Simon,

to throw another wrench in you works :-) : For the money you can get yourself a NICE Rolleiflex. Quieter than both Leica and Mamiya. Real classy. Wonderful results.

Not what you were asking for, but think about: it will be a completely different experience. You will literally (because of waistlevel viewing) get a different angle on things. And the long term value and joy that comes with a Rolleiflex is hard to match.

Just sayin' :-)
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Old 03-10-2010   #8
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The v4, as has been mentioned, doesn't match its hype. I had one, too, saved my pennies for it, and it was a disappointment relative to its reputation. If it's magic you're looking for, there's more to be had in the big neg and better glass of the Mamiya than there is the Summicron. B&W tonality to die for!
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Old 03-10-2010   #9
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I vote for orapplenges!
Think what gear you don't need and how much you'll get for it..and then decide!
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Old 03-10-2010   #10
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I'm not going to vote and skew that, since I don't have an Leica gear and don't want any. But I think I can relate this to meself and Fujica lenses over Super Press 23 gear and/or lenses. I love Fujica ST cameras, and I think Fujinon lenses take a back seat to nobody. I have all the cameras I need, and would only buy another if it were sold at a really rediculously low price. I really love and wish I had more Fujinon lenses. Unfortunately, they tend to cost a lot of money. I also love the Super Press 23 and lenses. They are good. I would love to have a rotating view back. I would love to have a 65mm lens, or a viewfinder for the 50mm lens (I do have a work-around). If I had the money for only one thing, I would no doubt go for the Press gear. I have other lenses I can use with the Fujica, that are plenty good, even if not Fuji. I can't substitute anything for the Mamiya gear I want. So that is where I would go.

In your case, I would say the big negative is the place to spend money. What is that lens going to get you that a 65mm lens won't on the Mamiya, and have the bigger negative. Mamiya lenses are good too.

But in the end, it is your decision. Good luck with making the best one for yourself.
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Old 03-10-2010   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbielikowski View Post
Question is simple, do you need fast lens? Or f/4 and Neopan 1600 is fine for you. If so, go for 7.
I wish there was a Neopan 1600 in 120/220 format.
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Old 03-10-2010   #12
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Can you add "GAS" to the poll list? This sounds like a GAS attack. What do you have now on the Leica?

[ADULTMODE=ON]
Are there significant reasons for mixing up formats and systems? Sounds like it will create an incomplete mish-mash of capabilities.
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Buy it and tell me how it goes. I want to do the same. You will assist in the recovery of the economy by buying both. (You will buy both. You can't resist.)
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Old 03-10-2010   #13
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Thanks to all of you who have commented / voted so far.

I will mention here that I have more than one Leica M body, a few Voigtländer lenses, like the 1.2/35 and 2.5/35 PII (needs a repair though, would probably sell it if I had and preferred the summicron.) I'm clearly a 35mm guy when it comes to 35mm format and blah. I also have a Fuji GS645S medium format rangefinder which is a cool camera, but different from the Mamiya (might sell this one if I get a Mamiya though). I also have 6x6 and 4x4 TLRs, more than enough. A Rolleiflex is no real alternative for me here.

I didn't put this in my original post as I don't want it to affect the voting or your suggestions. Choosing what to get rid of will be another story that is already about to be told... but I'm definitely going the 35mm AND medium format way. different glasses for different drinks.

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Old 03-10-2010   #14
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I also think the v.4 is over-hyped, but you seem to have quite a bit of gear. I would sell the 35s you have and get the Summicron 35 ASPH, do some enlargements then see if you still want the larger format Mamiya lens. You might be surprised, the ASPH is a very good lens.



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Old 03-10-2010   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin m View Post
If it's magic you're looking for, there's more to be had in the big neg and better glass of the Mamiya than there is the Summicron. B&W tonality to die for!
Or you could go bigger...

But the above is so true... (All I have to say is "light table"...)
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Old 03-10-2010   #16
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I think V4 is a great lens, it mops the floor with Ultron. But since you aready have a few pieces of 35mm in that mount, maybe there's not much sense getting another one..
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Old 03-10-2010   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCTuomey View Post
if it is not for you, you can sell it later at no loss and maybe even a bit of gain. especially if, once you have the 'cron, you're still thinking of that mamiya, and the money you have in the 'cron seems excessive for what you get from it.
good advise and is now the way I look at all my gear. If the worth is in excess of the results and pleasure I get, it goes! This of course does not mean I don't get sellers remorse every time something goes
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Old 03-10-2010   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ljós View Post
Simon,

to throw another wrench in you works :-) : For the money you can get yourself a NICE Rolleiflex. Quieter than both Leica and Mamiya. Real classy. Wonderful results.

Not what you were asking for, but think about: it will be a completely different experience. You will literally (because of waistlevel viewing) get a different angle on things. And the long term value and joy that comes with a Rolleiflex is hard to match.

Just sayin' :-)
Gotta say, this rings true with me.
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Old 03-10-2010   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by varjag View Post
I think V4 is a great lens, it mops the floor with Ultron. But since you aready have a few pieces of 35mm in that mount, maybe there's not much sense getting another one..
What rubbish and making a statement like that needs some backing up as I haven't seen anything that justifies a iv as been any better than an Ultron.
The Ultron was my original rangefinder lens and I sold it and bought a Summicron asph. The asph was great, maybe even too much so. I used it for 3 years but in the end I didn't use it enough to warrant it sitting around so I sold it. I've used a iv and it's a great lens but to me near identical results to an Ultron and 4x the price for a Leica name badge however i'm sure there are those who will swear it improves their pics
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Old 03-10-2010   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonSawSunlight View Post
I will mention here that I have more than one Leica M body, a few Voigtländer lenses, like the 1.2/35 and 2.5/35 PII (needs a repair though, would probably sell it if I had and preferred the summicron.) I'm clearly a 35mm guy when it comes to 35mm format and blah. I also have a Fuji GS645S medium format rangefinder which is a cool camera, but different from the Mamiya (might sell this one if I get a Mamiya though). I also have 6x6 and 4x4 TLRs, more than enough.
You're 21 and clearly talented. Your gear doesn't seam to limit your photography. Forget GAS and RFF. Go travel, buy a motorcycle, etc.

Just my 2 cents.

Last edited by ferider : 03-10-2010 at 05:25.
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Old 03-10-2010   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferider View Post
You're 21 and clearly talented. Your gear doesn't seam to limit your photography. Forget GAS and RFF. Go travel, buy a motorcycle, etc.

Just my 2 cents.
+1......

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Old 03-10-2010   #22
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Get the mamiya. I am in almost the same boat. I have the 645 AF and love/hate it. It is jsut too big to lug around all the time bt it is fast to use. The neagatives are crazy....crazy...crazy!

I jsut went out for 10 days in the desert with both Ms and the mamiya. I took about 10 rolls of 35 B+W and 10 35 E6. All turned out great. I also took 20 rolls each of B+w and color 120.....I have yet to put much time into the 35 negs

My 35 is a CV 1.4 that is good but does not work as well as the 'cron 50/2. I was able to compare a bunch of negs of similiar shots. The 'cron 35/2 is on my short list but after looking at the 120s from the mamiya the decision is moving towards a mamiya 7...and soon.

I love the leica M for many different reasons but I alos love big negs with tons of detail. My current 35 CV is fine for now.
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Old 03-10-2010   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nobbylon View Post
version 4 is a great lens but over hyped IMHO as is the Summilux 35. I've got the lux at the moment and I've just bought an Ultron 35 for €200 to replace it as it's just not my thing. I had one at the start of my rangefinder discovery and it was brilliant. Try one before you part with the silly money for v4's. Spend the saving toward the Mamiya.
I have the v4 and the pre-Lux and I just bought a second Ultron on this forum because I wanted one in black. As you imply, it seems to be superior to both of the Leicas in some ways and I agree that the difference in price isn't justified. However, I'd sound a note of caution about the Mamiya. For many years I had a 645 1000S and I could never get the results I wanted from the 55mm lens. The tones were too harsh and the bokeh was horrible. I'm not saying the r/f Mamiyas are the same but do try to use one before putting your money down.
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Old 03-10-2010   #24
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From your Port I see no reason the V4 would improve your work. It is work that stands on it's own. You could shoot with a disposable and bring back keepers. Why mess about with internet legend. The v4 is a great lens but not worth the bloated price at has landed at. If it's that uber-bokeh you are looking for grab a CLE f2/40 for 1/4 the price of a v4 and you will have it along with a slightly different 40mm view. My opinion is a plane ticket will add more depth to your Portfolio than another lens or format.
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Old 03-10-2010   #25
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Although it's a great lens, IMHO, Cron 35 v4 is SLIGHTLY overrated and overhyped, and quite a bit overpriced compared to v2 & v3.

Simon, you recently got 645 right? I guess that's pushing you to even larger format? As you might know, I got Mamiya 7 (my first 6x7) recently and shooting 6x6 for about 10 years although I've been mainly a 135 shooter. If you are planning to enjoy your photos mainly on computer display like flickr or as a small coffee table book, the "character" of the lens could be way more important than the absolute resolution. Maybe then buying v4 Cron over Mamiya 6 or 7 might make sense (not saying Mamiya lenses don't have a character). If you are into printing the pictures, there is just no comparison. I just printed some shots from Mamiya in the weekend, it is breathtaking. And 6x7 is very darkroom print friendly.
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Old 03-10-2010   #26
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I have to agree with ljos. The Rollei is a perfect street cam, flash at all speeds, GREAT lens, Great for travel. IMHO the most versatile camera for most things. Mine are both f 3.5, and I'd recommend instead the 2.8. More money, but the 80mm lens seems a better choice than the 75mm of the 3.5s.
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Old 03-10-2010   #27
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If you want a 35mm 'cron, just buy a Konica Hexar AF (the lenses are equivalent, not "identical") and then buy the Mamiya 7 with the $ difference.
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Old 03-10-2010   #28
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Another note. My v3 Cron (least popular) and Mamiya 7 + 80mm COMBINED cost was about the same as v4 Cron's market price. I don't think I'm missing anything with my v3 Cron, and Mamiya 7 is really a joy to use.

That said, I'd still go with Mamiya 7 kit only and use the saved cash on film and paper.
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Old 03-10-2010   #29
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I love both my Mamiya 6 cameras--6 and 6MF. They handle well and are very compact because of the collapsible mount. I just don't use 35mm as it does not give me the quality I like so I can't say if the lens is more important for you.
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Old 03-10-2010   #30
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I agree a Rolleiflex is quiet, but quiter then a Mamiya 6 ? I'm not so sure about that

Go for a Mamiya 6 S/H: with the three lenses available, it's a magnificent setup, and you can use any filmspeed you want; with MF, grain, sharpness, etc ... are much better then 35mm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ljós View Post
Simon,

to throw another wrench in you works :-) : For the money you can get yourself a NICE Rolleiflex. Quieter than both Leica and Mamiya. Real classy. Wonderful results.

Not what you were asking for, but think about: it will be a completely different experience. You will literally (because of waistlevel viewing) get a different angle on things. And the long term value and joy that comes with a Rolleiflex is hard to match.

Just sayin' :-)
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Old 03-10-2010   #31
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what's so wrong with the 35's you already have?
go travelling
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Old 03-10-2010   #32
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Last year I bought a Mamiya 6 with the 75mm and the VC 35/1.4. Total cost was about $1500 which is pretty close to the price of a Mamiya 7 kit. Best of all worlds IMHO.
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Old 03-10-2010   #33
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For someone so young you have the classic rf style pretty much nailed to the wall- very good job. Get the Mamiya 7. The shape of the neg and the loss of depth of field compared to 35 in 35mm will probably give you a great challenge! You will love it.
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Old 03-10-2010   #34
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I would be strongly tempted to get the M7, especially if I can get it with a lens. I think I'd want the 60mm. Well, maybe the 80. The comments about the superior IQ of MF are not to be marginalized--Version IV Summicron or no . . .

And for prints in the 8x10 proportion, 6x7 is better than 6x6. Believe me, I know.
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Old 03-10-2010   #35
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If you're interested in the best possible image quality, the Mamiya 6 will dust the Leica. Any film Leica and any lens. And the viewfinder is way better. I have both and the Mamiya is what gets used.
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Old 03-10-2010   #36
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do you make slides for projection, do you develop films yourself, do you make large prints?
Than go to MF. Breathtaking.
For other cases I would stay with Leica. Film or digital.
So I decided to sell all my MF-gear (Mamiya 7 and Bronica RF645) until summer because I do not develop myself and do not make prints.
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Old 03-11-2010   #37
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Quote:
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From your Port I see no reason the V4 would improve your work. It is work that stands on it's own. You could shoot with a disposable and bring back keepers. Why mess about with internet legend. The v4 is a great lens but not worth the bloated price at has landed at. If it's that uber-bokeh you are looking for grab a CLE f2/40 for 1/4 the price of a v4 and you will have it along with a slightly different 40mm view. My opinion is a plane ticket will add more depth to your Portfolio than another lens or format.
Sell a few lenses. Buy a Konica Hexar AF.

The V4 is great; but compared to a V3 Cron, or the Zeiss Biogon, it's ridiculously overpriced. It won't magically transform your photos. The Hexar AF might. The 35mm lens renders differently to the V4, but it's the same standard, and the Hexar might well make yo approach your work differenty and genuinely give yo usomething new. It's also such an anonymous beast that you'll spend less time thinking about it, and more time shooting it.
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Old 03-11-2010   #38
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Orapplenges ....

Both won`t change you photographic possibilities much, better to spent the money for travel ...
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Old 03-25-2010   #39
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If you're interested in the best possible image quality, the Mamiya 6 will dust the Leica. Any film Leica and any lens. And the viewfinder is way better. I have both and the Mamiya is what gets used.

Totally Agree. After debate I sold my M4-P. I am out of Leica, I did pick up a G2, but even the Zeiss Lenses are not on the same level at the Mamiya 6.

The Mamiya lenses - the sharpness, color and resolution, when you look at medium format negative film, it's a different story--the high (and natural) dynamic range, the organic response to light, unique color rendition, better tones and richer depth of field make for a better 'big picture' photograph.

No questions, the Mamiya 6 over 35mm rangefinder.

Here is (IMO) a very good 90mm Carl Zeiss image on Kodak Portra 160NC, taken with my G2




Here is the same film the same day, using the 75mm Mamiya lens on the Mamiya 6




You can click on these images and bring them up larger.

No question - the Mamiya 6
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Old 03-25-2010   #40
nimcod
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: London
Age: 30
Posts: 89
I have been sitting on a similar decision for a while now, a dealer in the uk has a couple of full mamiya 6 kits that have been tempting me to buy instead of spending the money on a cron 35.
The problem i have is it would mean dropping more money in developing gear plus darkroom and/or scanning to get myself up to printing and/or scanning the negs, which is the spanner in the works at the moment.

Also ill make the case for travelling, on the money your thinking of spending on the cron, you could travel in some interesting places for a hellova long time, e.g. balkans/central asia/se asia and im not sure on the cost there of travelling but even in south america id imagine.

I did quite a bit this summer just past, photography sadly was not the main focus for the majority of it, but i still have a respectable amount of images i am incredibly proud of from 2 months of travelling (which involved near constant driving) and its driven me to look to going back to my favourite places, and spend a longer time in each, although some travelling debts have to be paid off before that can happen!
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