Go Back   Rangefinderforum.com > Cameras / Gear / Photography > Leicas and other Leica Mount Cameras > Leica M Film Cameras

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes

Why are all my negatives unsharp?
Old 03-20-2017   #1
Landberg
Registered User
 
Landberg is offline
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 639
Why are all my negatives unsharp?

Hi!
I sold all my film Leicas about a year ago and went all digital. I missed using film leicas and bought a M5. I sent it of for CLA and got it back. I tried the camera with a elmarit 28 v3 and a new Elmarit 28 ASPH. And all images are soft/unsharp. How can this be? I use the same film and same developer that i have used for the last 6-7 years. even at f5.6-f11 all pictures are soft/unsharp, even at high shutter speeds. The developer is maybe 5-6 month old.

Tri-X 400
Tmax developer
Kodak Fixer

My scanner works fine to. What can it be?
__________________
My photoblog rikardlandberg.com
flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-20-2017   #2
CK Dexter Haven
Registered User
 
CK Dexter Haven is offline
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,441
Can you find a 1-Hour Foto Lab to do a quick test? Shoot a roll of C-41 color, and have the lab scan it. Then, scan the same negs yourself. Shoot Both Lenses at at three different apertures, wide open, 5.6 and 22.

Work from the comparison of those results to eliminate variables. Do you have another camera you could use to shoot a few frames On The Same Roll, to eliminate finder issues?
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-20-2017   #3
Highway 61
Revisited
 
Highway 61's Avatar
 
Highway 61 is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,516
The reasons are potentially numerous : bad lens collimation, camera RF out of specs, lens mount not parallel to film plane, both lenses having got a bump (unlikely), camera film pressure plate having come loose, etc.

At this point and thanks to the few data you wrote above nobody can tell you. Did you inspect the film with a real 20x lupe instead of all trusting your scanner ?

But, that kind of problem has nothing to do with film processing.
__________________

  Reply With Quote

Old 03-20-2017   #4
Landberg
Registered User
 
Landberg is offline
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 639
Thanks! I have tested my lens on a M9 and it works great! We don't have 1 hour laps in Sweden. I can send it away to a lab but that will take about 2 weeks.
__________________
My photoblog rikardlandberg.com
flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-20-2017   #5
Landberg
Registered User
 
Landberg is offline
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway 61 View Post
The reasons are potentially numerous : bad lens collimation, camera RF out of specs, lens mount not parallel to film plane, both lenses having got a bump (unlikely), camera film pressure plate having come loose, etc.

At this point and thanks to the few data you wrote above nobody can tell you. Did you inspect the film with a real 20x lupe instead of all trusting your scanner ?

But, that kind of problem has nothing to do with film processing.
I don't know what more data to give you. :/
__________________
My photoblog rikardlandberg.com
flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-20-2017   #6
Jerevan
Recycled User
 
Jerevan's Avatar
 
Jerevan is offline
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,009
There are still 1-hour labs in Sweden - at least one in Gothenburg.

If the lens works fine on the M9, then I'd say it might be something up with the M5 body.

Use a tripod, get out a tape measure laid out in front of the camera and run a film through the M5 alongside the M9, being careful to keep the tripod in the same spot. Then you might spot focus issues for example.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-20-2017   #7
Corran
Registered User
 
Corran is offline
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 819
How about a full-resolution scan????
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-20-2017   #8
Landberg
Registered User
 
Landberg is offline
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerevan View Post
There are still 1-hour labs in Sweden - at least one in Gothenburg.

If the lens works fine on the M9, then I'd say it might be something up with the M5 body.

Use a tripod, get out a tape measure laid out in front of the camera and run a film through the M5 alongside the M9, being careful to keep the tripod in the same spot. Then you might spot focus issues for example.
Bor inte nära göteborg, vilken tänker du på?
__________________
My photoblog rikardlandberg.com
flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-20-2017   #9
Jerevan
Recycled User
 
Jerevan's Avatar
 
Jerevan is offline
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,009
Götaplatsens foto - de har en maskin i källaren.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-20-2017   #10
f16sunshine
Moderator
 
f16sunshine's Avatar
 
f16sunshine is offline
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Seattle
Age: 49
Posts: 5,678
Try outlining your workflow and then triage each step to isolate a potential problem.

Camera:
, test shutter, test lens mount, look at film gate, Maybe use a ground glass while set to bulb, do a tripod test with all your lenses on the same subject with variety of apertures (use one full roll and really get invested.

Development :
Try a couple of different developers. Shoot a roll of c41 or e6 and send it out to a mail run Lab.

Scanner:
Test the scanner with old negatives or slides you know are sharp.
Since your lenses test good on the M9, I would suspect the scanner more than anything else.
The M5 is just a light-box with a shutter to hold the lens. Unless the mount is out of wack and has ruined the register distance, Somewhere on the frame should be sharp even if focus is not perfect.
Do you have a digital camera you can set up to "scan" a negative/slide and compare with your scanner.
__________________
Andy
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-20-2017   #11
Hatchetman
Registered User
 
Hatchetman is offline
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 187
turn your lens around and use it as a loupe. look at negative under light. is it same as scan or different?
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-20-2017   #12
Landberg
Registered User
 
Landberg is offline
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by f16sunshine View Post
Try outlining your workflow and then triage each step to isolate a potential problem.

Camera:
, test shutter, test lens mount, look at film gate, Maybe use a ground glass while set to bulb, do a tripod test with all your lenses on the same subject with variety of apertures (use one full roll and really get invested.

Development :
Try a couple of different developers. Shoot a roll of c41 or e6 and send it out to a mail run Lab.

Scanner:
Test the scanner with old negatives or slides you know are sharp.
Since your lenses test good on the M9, I would suspect the scanner more than anything else.
The M5 is just a light-box with a shutter to hold the lens. Unless the mount is out of wack and has ruined the register distance, Somewhere on the frame should be sharp even if focus is not perfect.
Do you have a digital camera you can set up to "scan" a negative/slide and compare with your scanner.
I have tested on tripod with 2 different lenses, same problem. I have tested scaning old negs, they look great.
__________________
My photoblog rikardlandberg.com
flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-20-2017   #13
f16sunshine
Moderator
 
f16sunshine's Avatar
 
f16sunshine is offline
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Seattle
Age: 49
Posts: 5,678
Try a ground glass on the film gate opened to bulb.
You'll need a magnifying lupe.
Not much else to test.
You could try another film although, I use the same film developer combo as you list all the time.
Tri-x and tmax dev gives sharp results.

I've used Neopan SS in the past and it gave results like I saw you post in another thread.
It just never was sharp. Tri-x is not that.
Maybe you have a bad batch ? Might be worth a look to get some low grain color film through to see how it goes.
__________________
Andy
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-20-2017   #14
Landberg
Registered User
 
Landberg is offline
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 639
I have also tried ilford HP5+, same results.
__________________
My photoblog rikardlandberg.com
flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-20-2017   #15
Highway 61
Revisited
 
Highway 61's Avatar
 
Highway 61 is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,516
Quote:
Originally Posted by Landberg View Post
I don't know what more data to give you. :/
We don't know whether you tried - or not - to identify the problem thanks to the basic tests you absolutely must do first :

- shots made at infinity
- shots made at close-up
- shots made at mid-range focusing distance
- same lenses on a different body
- other lenses on the same M5 body

Also, did you go through all the basic tests f16sunshine advised you to ?

Basically, by telling us "my photos with that camera and those two lenses mounted on it aren't sharp", you don't tell us anything tangible so that we can put you on some interesting tracks to identify your specific problem.

For instance, in case of the M5 rangefinder being out of whack, only a series of tests with a groundglass and a lupe at many focusing distances from close-up to inf. to compare the image on the ground glass (looked at with a lupe) with what the RF tells you in the viewfinder would be helpful.

Did you look at the M5 film pressure plate ? Is it there ? Is it correctly installed ?

Did you check the camera lens mount ? Wouldn't it be loose ?

Did you look at the RF arm in the lens chamber of the camera ? Does it look normal ? Is the pulley there ? Does it swing back towards the front of the camera if you gently push it with your finger ?

And so on.
__________________

  Reply With Quote

Old 03-20-2017   #16
Huss
Registered User
 
Huss is offline
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Venice, CA
Posts: 4,134
Before doing anything fancy, does the camera focus correctly to infinity with the lenses that work on your M9? Focus on something far far away like the moon.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-20-2017   #17
Ko.Fe.
Me. Write ESL. Ko.
 
Ko.Fe.'s Avatar
 
Ko.Fe. is offline
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: MiltON.ONtario
Age: 50
Posts: 4,752
I also would like to suggest to check camera on the tripod, hinged back removed, ground glass on the camera film channel, shutter open, lens focused wide open of the focus target under bright table lamp at one meter or closer. Then same, but on infinity.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-21-2017   #18
michaelwj
----------------
 
michaelwj's Avatar
 
michaelwj is offline
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Brisbane AUS
Posts: 1,542
It's the M5.
An M2,3,4,6,P,A would give you sharp results.

Jokes aside, if the lenses work fine on your M9 but not on your M5, then the issue is the camera. Send it back to where it was serviced and tell them to do a proper job.
__________________
Cheers,
Michael
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-21-2017   #19
Robert Lai
Registered User
 
Robert Lai is offline
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,379
Your rangefinder is off. It may have been dropped in the mail.
Ask your repair service to adjust the RF again.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-23-2017   #20
Landberg
Registered User
 
Landberg is offline
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 639
I have now sent it back for service. The service place say that it is perfect in alignment. Could it be bad chemicals? Can bad chemicals make negatives look unsharp?
__________________
My photoblog rikardlandberg.com
flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-23-2017   #21
stompyq
Registered User
 
stompyq is offline
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,395
Can you do a test with the M9 and the M5 side by side on a tripod? Shoot the M5 then the M9. Single static target (a brick wall is good) at different apertures. Then post the scans here? It's not the chemicals. Unless you have acetone in your solvent developer (and then you won't have any film left )
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-23-2017   #22
Ko.Fe.
Me. Write ESL. Ko.
 
Ko.Fe.'s Avatar
 
Ko.Fe. is offline
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: MiltON.ONtario
Age: 50
Posts: 4,752
Well, as it was suggested get C-41 film and developing done elsewhere.

Was this issue present before first CLA?
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-23-2017   #23
stompyq
Registered User
 
stompyq is offline
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,395
Who did the CLA?
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-23-2017   #24
jbielikowski
call me Jan
 
jbielikowski's Avatar
 
jbielikowski is offline
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Posts: 966
pics or it didn't happen

one old and one new should be enough
__________________

  Reply With Quote

Old 03-23-2017   #25
Landberg
Registered User
 
Landberg is offline
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by stompyq View Post
Can you do a test with the M9 and the M5 side by side on a tripod? Shoot the M5 then the M9. Single static target (a brick wall is good) at different apertures. Then post the scans here? It's not the chemicals. Unless you have acetone in your solvent developer (and then you won't have any film left )
The M9 was not mine.

Here are som sample shots from my M5.

100% crop, elmarit 28mm asph, f8, at around 2 meters. Took 3 pictures and the focus was spot on. Tri-x 400.




100% crop, elmarit 28mm v3, f11, aorund 2 meters away. Took 3 pictures, all looked the same, also at f8 and f16. Focus spot on in viewfinder. tri-x 400




100% crop, elmarit 28 v3, f2.8 maybe 3-4 meters away. I took 8 pictures 6 at f2.8 and 2 at f4. All looks the same. tri-x 400 @ 1600.

All shoot on different films and developed at different times.




To compare, here is a photo made with my hexar at 100%, scanned yesterday. Same, film, same chemicals, same scanner.
__________________
My photoblog rikardlandberg.com
flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-23-2017   #26
robry
Registered User
 
robry's Avatar
 
robry is offline
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Stockholm Sweden, Bucuresti Romania
Age: 62
Posts: 40
Veikko kunde åtminstone tidigare framkalla på några timmar, men då till högre pris:
http://www.teamframkallning.se/index.php

han kanske kan hjälpa till
mvhRobert
__________________
Rage, rage against the dying of the light...
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-23-2017   #27
stompyq
Registered User
 
stompyq is offline
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,395
Those M9 shots are not in focus
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-23-2017   #28
Landberg
Registered User
 
Landberg is offline
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by stompyq View Post
Those M9 shots are not in focus
Those are M5 photos.
__________________
My photoblog rikardlandberg.com
flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-23-2017   #29
stompyq
Registered User
 
stompyq is offline
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,395
Oh sorry. My bad. Can you post the M9 shot? or did you just look at them on the LCD screen? Those M5 ones are all out of focus.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-23-2017   #30
Landberg
Registered User
 
Landberg is offline
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by stompyq View Post
Oh sorry. My bad. Can you post the M9 shot? or did you just look at them on the LCD screen? Those M5 ones are all out of focus.
Here is one with the M9, the man who helped me did a lot of tests. Then we thought that the lens was the problem because the M5 was straigt out of a fresh CLA. So we only tested the lens with the M9, not with the M5.




f2.8, leica M9.


100% crop
__________________
My photoblog rikardlandberg.com
flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-23-2017   #31
Ko.Fe.
Me. Write ESL. Ko.
 
Ko.Fe.'s Avatar
 
Ko.Fe. is offline
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: MiltON.ONtario
Age: 50
Posts: 4,752
I think, you are at the point to shot not faces but focus check targets with scale in millimeters and at 45 degree angle. This is the only way to find out what it going on.

Again, was M5 working before it was send for first CLA? Was it sold as working?
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-23-2017   #32
Landberg
Registered User
 
Landberg is offline
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
I think, you are at the point to shot not faces but focus check targets with scale in millimeters and at 45 degree angle. This is the only way to find out what it going on.

Again, was M5 working before it was send for first CLA? Was it sold as working?
Yes.

It was working. but needed some small adjustments.
__________________
My photoblog rikardlandberg.com
flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-23-2017   #33
Huss
Registered User
 
Huss is offline
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Venice, CA
Posts: 4,134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
Before doing anything fancy, does the camera focus correctly to infinity with the lenses that work on your M9? Focus on something far far away like the moon.
Did you try this suggestion? All you are doing here is seeing if the rf patch in the viewfinder aligns perfectly when focused at infinity. You are not taking a picture.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-23-2017   #34
Landberg
Registered User
 
Landberg is offline
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
Did you try this suggestion? All you are doing here is seeing if the rf patch in the viewfinder aligns perfectly when focused at infinity. You are not taking a picture.
Yes! This was the first thing i tried! I have owned a lot of film leicas and never had this problem. I have CLAd all my leicas at the same shop.
__________________
My photoblog rikardlandberg.com
flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-23-2017   #35
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
 
Pherdinand's Avatar
 
Pherdinand is offline
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: by the river called the Gender
Age: 40
Posts: 7,699
Are you putting your film in backwards)
__________________
Happy New Year, Happy New Continent!
eye contact eye
My RFF Foolery
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-23-2017   #36
Ko.Fe.
Me. Write ESL. Ko.
 
Ko.Fe.'s Avatar
 
Ko.Fe. is offline
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: MiltON.ONtario
Age: 50
Posts: 4,752
So,
Working camera sent for CLA.
Camera is not working after CLA.
Camera sent for same place where CLA was done to check if it is working and it is working for them, but not for you.

Once it is back, I urge you not to check RF in the RF patch. But to check film plane for focus accuracy.
Like on this examples from Flickr.

IMG_2013 by akaplunenko, on Flickr

IMG_2018 by akaplunenko, on Flickr

IMG_7305 by akaplunenko, on Flickr

Focusing target file is here:
http://www.nobadfoto.com/check-autofocus-issues.html or here
http://www.bobatkins.com/photography...s_testing.html

If it is complicated, skip ground glass part and use same setup to take focus check ruler picture and find out where exactly focus if. It might be well off. My guess it is about 5 cm off on minimum focus distance.

  Reply With Quote

Old 03-23-2017   #37
Hatchetman
Registered User
 
Hatchetman is offline
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pherdinand View Post
Are you putting your film in backwards)
That is a good idea!
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-23-2017   #38
Landberg
Registered User
 
Landberg is offline
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 639
It has to be the chemicals. The guy who does my CLA has the camera right now. He took it out for a spin with another film and developer. His negatives looks just fine!
__________________
My photoblog rikardlandberg.com
flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-23-2017   #39
Landberg
Registered User
 
Landberg is offline
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
So,
Working camera sent for CLA.
Camera is not working after CLA.
Camera sent for same place where CLA was done to check if it is working and it is working for them, but not for you.

Once it is back, I urge you not to check RF in the RF patch. But to check film plane for focus accuracy.
Like on this examples from Flickr.

IMG_2013 by akaplunenko, on Flickr

IMG_2018 by akaplunenko, on Flickr

IMG_7305 by akaplunenko, on Flickr

Focusing target file is here:
http://www.nobadfoto.com/check-autofocus-issues.html or here
http://www.bobatkins.com/photography...s_testing.html

If it is complicated, skip ground glass part and use same setup to take focus check ruler picture and find out where exactly focus if. It might be well off. My guess it is about 5 cm off on minimum focus distance.

Thank you!
__________________
My photoblog rikardlandberg.com
flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-23-2017   #40
dmr
Registered Abuser
 
dmr's Avatar
 
dmr is offline
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Somewhere in Middle America
Posts: 4,008
What I found is REALLY helpful is to take some test shots along a railroad track, focusing on something that's down the track, like a signal light pole, but not all the way to infinity. Then see where the track tie planks and the rocks along the track are in the best focus compared to what you focused on.

I've recently found, using this, that a body I have is out of whack with ALL lenses and one lens is out of whack with both bodies. The sharpest focus in those cases is much closer than the target I focused on.
__________________
My (NEW) Gallery
My Blog
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 15:39.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.