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Infrared Film Metering- Rollei IR400s/ M7
Old 11-06-2015   #1
aadi
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Question Infrared Film Metering- Rollei IR400s/ M7

Hi, I'm planning to shoot Rollei IR400s infrared film on Leica M7. I'll be using B+W 092 filter.

Would it be OK to use the TTL metering with filter on and at box speed (iso 400), or should I do the metering without the filter and compensate later?
Also, none of my lens that take 39mm filter has IR marking on it. I'm guessing it would be ok to adjust the focusing distance to the f/4 or f/5.6 marking?

Soory to sound like such a n00b
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Old 11-06-2015   #2
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meter without the filter. put the filter on. add five stops additional exposure. move focus ring 1/16 to 1/8 inch away from infinity. shoot.
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Old 11-06-2015   #3
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Thanks for the answer!
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Old 11-06-2015   #4
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Does your M7 have the updated IR DX "Reader" ?
If it does your films will be fogged.
You may wish to choose another camera.

In the past I would bracket with Rollei IR and Hoya r72.
iso 50, 25, 12.5..... 25 being the base for exposure.
Your meter, The atmosphere, lens, and filter all have a bearing.
It's fun stuff to work with but needs a bit of flexing to get desired results.
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Old 11-06-2015   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f16sunshine View Post
Does your M7 have the updated IR DX "Reader" ?
If it does your films will be fogged.
You may wish to choose another camera.
It has the old pin-contact reader fortunately
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Old 11-06-2015   #6
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Bingo


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Old 11-07-2015   #7
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Hi,
I shot the Rollei Infrared 400s using the M6TTL and a Heliopan RG715 filter. The meter was set to ISO 400 and I metered always with the filter on the lens.
No need for focus adjustments, because as far as I know, focus adjustment is only needed if using Kodak HIR. This film is (or was... ) more IR sensitive than Rollei Infrared 400s.

Neckarhaldenweg Torturm by M6TTL, on Flickr
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Old 11-07-2015   #8
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Thanks for the info!

I shot a roll today, and just metered it with the filter on (the shutter speed reading seems well compensated for the filter).

But I didn't know that the focus adjustment is only needed for HIE film!

EDIT: I saw your flickr stream. Seems like the film has no issues for Xpan as well? (I heard before Xpan can't shoot IR film bevause of the IR sensor inside the camera)


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Originally Posted by FM2N View Post
Hi,
I shot the Rollei Infrared 400s using the M6TTL and a Heliopan RG715 filter. The meter was set to ISO 400 and I metered always with the filter on the lens.
No need for focus adjustments, because as far as I know, focus adjustment is only needed if using Kodak HIR. This film is (or was... ) more IR sensitive than Rollei Infrared 400s.

Neckarhaldenweg Torturm by M6TTL, on Flickr
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Old 11-08-2015   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aadi View Post
Thanks for the info!

I shot a roll today, and just metered it with the filter on (the shutter speed reading seems well compensated for the filter).

But I didn't know that the focus adjustment is only needed for HIE film!

EDIT: I saw your flickr stream. Seems like the film has no issues for Xpan as well? (I heard before Xpan can't shoot IR film bevause of the IR sensor inside the camera)
As far as I know - common used IR-LEDs emitting infrared light at approximately 900nm. The Rollei Infrared is sensitive to circa 750nm (near infrared).
I think the LEDs used in the M7 and in the XPan are more or less the same, so the Rollei Infrared could not be fogged by the LEDs.
But the Kodak HIE is sensitive to at least 1000nm, so the IR-LEDs cause fogging. Maybe the HIR sensivity is the reason for the statement that the LEDs cause fogging?
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Old 07-30-2016   #10
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Hi everybody,

I have similar challenge.

I would like to shoot infrared and planned to use the following combination:
Leica M6 (classic), CV 35mm color-skopar, Rollei Infrared 400S, Leica HOOET 13126 D Infrared-Filter. Alternatively I would also have a light red filter available. HC-110 developer.
I'd like to shoot in bright sun, forest with light coming through and also give night shots a try.

Do you have any recommendations for the f-stop, shutter speed, ...

Wish you all nice Sunday.

Thanks and best regards, Miguel
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Old 07-31-2016   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aadi View Post
Hi, I'm planning to shoot Rollei IR400s infrared film on Leica M7. I'll be using B+W 092 filter.

Would it be OK to use the TTL metering with filter on and at box speed (iso 400), or should I do the metering without the filter and compensate later?
.......
I have no experience with the Rollei film but I used to shoot much infrared film, Kodak HEI and the same emulsion in 70mm which was Aerographic 2424. I always used a 25A (red) filter as that best with that emulsion to give me the results I wanted. Of course, you may decide on a different filter with the Rollei film. I did a lot of testing, much bracketing, much note taking, much analysis and my conclusions may be applicable to your situation.

Using a standard light meter that measures visible, not IR, light, the EI adjustment varied quite a bit. I concluded that I need to apply what ever adjustment was necessary to adjust my meter reading to f11 @ 1/250th. So I quit using the meter and just shot f11 @ 1/250th with eyeball adjustments for subject luminance. Now I am sure your exposure will differ. But I bet you will eventually learn not to try to meter IR exposure with a light meter that reads visible light but will settle on a standard exposure.

Also, you will eventually tire of working to have light colored foliage and dark skies with bright white clouds. Many who shoot much IR film tire of that "one trick pony" concept. But if you think broadly, it will have many other artistic uses. I loved it IR film for nudes, especially older women as it hid many of the effects of father time.
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Old 07-31-2016   #12
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ok... I've done some ir... i shot this first photo on kodak hie, bessa r2, summarit, leica ir filter:


fortunately, the M 8 can, with the proper filters yield almost the same effect with almost zero work, and post...


and i have one roll of the hie, a few rolls of the rollei, and one roll of eir ektachrome color infrared... will be shooting those soon... but the real catcher is using the m8 as a color infrared camera...
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Old 07-31-2016   #13
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[IMG][IMG][/IMG][/IMG]
Would love some info , these were just shot on Rollie IR400 film , using a 720 filter and exposed at ISO 12 , which I developed in HC110 dil b for the time on the Massive Dev chart . And although the IR bloom ( Wood ) effect may be a "one trick pony" , it's the effect I want and don't seem to have gotten on these pics . If anything they only
look overexposed to me .( It was a bright sunny day ) Was I using the wrong subject matter ? Any suggestions ? I only have a couple more rolls . Thanks , Peter
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Old 07-31-2016   #14
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Old 07-31-2016   #15
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And the last one, Peter
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Old 08-01-2016   #16
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For what it's worth, here's a comparison of the Rollei IR400s film, without any filter and with B+W 092 filter. Both shot at box speed on aperture-priority mode on the M7. This was shot during fall last year, there was hardly ant green leaves left.

Pardon the light leak on the first image; it was frame 00


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Old 08-03-2016   #17
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Somebody has any idea for my challenge?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogie77 View Post
Hi everybody,

I have similar challenge.

I would like to shoot infrared and planned to use the following combination:
Leica M6 (classic), CV 35mm color-skopar, Rollei Infrared 400S, Leica HOOET 13126 D Infrared-Filter. Alternatively I would also have a light red filter available. HC-110 developer.
I'd like to shoot in bright sun, forest with light coming through and also give night shots a try.

Do you have any recommendations for the f-stop, shutter speed, ...

Wish you all nice Sunday.

Thanks and best regards, Miguel
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Old 08-03-2016   #18
Ronald M
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I used to just read through the lens with the filter on. Calibrate the film speed so you get good exposures. I do not remember exactly, but I used Kodak HSI + 092 at something less than 400 . I never bracketed with the M6.

While running the test, find the proper focus point for IR with your lens for that film and filter. A nice picket fence at 45 deg angle will easily show where you are actually focusing.
Mark the fence where you actually focus.
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Old 08-03-2016   #19
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Hi Ronald,

Thanks for your explanation. I will try that.

Hope the leica filter is not too dark and I can still measure through it.

Miguel
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Old 08-05-2016   #20
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I'm hoping to pique the interest of any member that's used Rollie IR 400 film specifically . The bloom effect I've failed at getting when I used a 720 filter and exposed
at ASA 12 and developed in HC-110 . Any suggestions on your experiences that produce this would be much appreciated . Peter

I'm using it in 120 format in my GL690
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Old 08-05-2016   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogie77 View Post
Hi everybody,

I have similar challenge.

I would like to shoot infrared and planned to use the following combination:
Leica M6 (classic), CV 35mm color-skopar, Rollei Infrared 400S, Leica HOOET 13126 D Infrared-Filter. Alternatively I would also have a light red filter available. HC-110 developer.
I'd like to shoot in bright sun, forest with light coming through and also give night shots a try.

Do you have any recommendations for the f-stop, shutter speed, ...

Wish you all nice Sunday.

Thanks and best regards, Miguel

Miguel, the sensitivity of the Rollei 400 extends just barely into the near infrared, unlike some of the older films (like HIE) that people are thinking of which went significantly further out. This film's sensitivity is already "falling off the edge" by wavelengths in the low 700nm region, and that is right about where the good stuff of infrared imaging starts to kick in (especially the Wood effect or "glow" that foliage exhibits). To capture that the filter's characteristic cut-on wavelength has to be matched just right in order to get a reasonable infrared effect. If it is too low (a red filter for example) you will get images that aren't much different from what any "normal" B&W film would produce with the same filter. But going too high in cut-on wavelength will quickly get you to the point of getting no image at all due to sensitivity being so poor.

For any of the Rollei films a filter of around 720nm is usually recommended. That would include filters like the Hoya R-72 (and others with "72" in the name), Cokin 007, and Wratten 89B equivalents. Unfortunately I don't know whether the 13126 D filter you mentioned falls into that category or not.

As for exposure, I've always used a version of the "sunny-16" approach (in sunny conditions at f/16 set the shutter to the reciprocal of the film speed value) in which I use a much reduced effective film speed which accounts for the effect of the filter. With the Rollei 400 and a 720nm filter a good starting point for this effective film speed would be in the range of 10 to 25. All of this depends a lot on the developer though, so you are going to have to experiment a bit to get it dialed-in.

For aperture and shutter speed you could of course use any combination that gives the same equivelent exposure as the sunny 16 calculation. But with the potential for focus shift when working in the infrared there is a tendency to lean towards smaller apertures so that depth of field will cover any error in focus. So for 35mm we're looking probably at something around say, f/11 and 1/25 second, assuming a bright sun-lit scene.

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Old 08-06-2016   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moto-Uno View Post
I'm hoping to pique the interest of any member that's used Rollie IR 400 film specifically . The bloom effect I've failed at getting when I used a 720 filter and exposed
at ASA 12 and developed in HC-110 . Any suggestions on your experiences that produce this would be much appreciated . Peter

I'm using it in 120 format in my GL690
Peter, I've struggled with this too. My reference for a good Wood effect was what I obtained with Efke IR820 film. When that was discontinued I started enjoying the Rollei films as a replacement, and while they offered many nice features which the IR820 couldn't match, the classic IR "look" wasn't one of them! I think that fundamentally the difference is that the Rollei film just doesn't go far enough into the infrared and thus is not capable of achieving quite the same effect.

Nevertheless, there are a few things I've done to try to combat this. One is to underrate the film even more, i.e., to expose even longer. This intensifies the brightness of the foliage, but at the same time makes them a little flatter.

Another thing I've done is to try to use a developer which lessens the otherwise high contrast of the film. This doesn't give the desired look by itself, but I find that the more reasonable contrast on the negative gives me more flexibility when processing the image to steer it in that direction. I guess this only applies if you are scanning. But still, it is nice to beat down the contrast with this film however you can in my opinion. Oh, and the developer I used was Atomal 49.

Finally, I figured that using a filter with a longer wavelength than the standard R-72 might help. Looking at the choices available I decided that the Hoya IR-76 or Wratten 87 were really just too far out there and I probably wouldn't be able to capture anything. There is however one which is intermediate between the R-72 and these; the Wratten 88A. These are unfortunately very hard to find, but after a lot of looking I finally found a gel filter version and have since tested it out. My result is that it does actually seem to get things closer to the classic look. Unfortunately it requires about another 2 stops in longer exposure,. But it may be worth it.

Jeff
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Old 08-06-2016   #23
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Thanks so much Denverdad,

So first thing I need to find out then is the 13126D filter's nm value.
A very good explanation.

Have a nice weekend, Miguel
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Old 08-06-2016   #24
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^^ Great info , thanks. Peter
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