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View Poll Results: Embedded or adobe standard
Embedded 22 42.31%
Adobe standard 16 30.77%
Depends on the photo 7 13.46%
I use a different converter 7 13.46%
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M9 profile: embedded or adobe standard?
Old 09-29-2012   #1
EdwardKaraa
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M9 profile: embedded or adobe standard?

Which one do you like more for ACR conversions? Embedded is the camera profile by the manufacturer. Adobe standard is the profile adobe creates for the camera. I personally find adobe standard to be more pleasing, while embedded may be more subdued and neutral. I use adobe standard.
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Old 09-29-2012   #2
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I use Apple's Aperture, so I believe it uses the M9's profile, which I find to be very pleasing.
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Old 09-30-2012   #3
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By the way is there any technical reason that one should use embedded instead of adobe standard? Maybe color accuracy or something similar? I read somewhere that the M9 color emulates Kodachrome 25. Sorry for asking but I'm new to this. My M9 is only 7 days old
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Old 10-01-2012   #4
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Clueless about the M9. With R2D2 (Canon 1D Mk III), for anything important, I usually run through all of Lightroom's profiles. About 95%-99% of the time I use the Faithful option. No clue what that means, but I also set the camera to Faithful. One profile that I have NEVER EVER used is Landscape. Bottom line: Use whatever works. Go figure. It's a digital thing.

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Old 10-04-2012   #5
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Adobe 1998 color profile.
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Old 10-04-2012   #6
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Keith, my question is about the color profile of the camera not the color space

Ok, there are 3 guys who voted for the original embedded profile made by Leica. I would love to hear from you about the reason why you use it?
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Old 01-19-2013   #7
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So easily tweaked in post processing - rather irrelevant.
As for color space: Prophoto to avoid color clipping - sRGB and Adobe RGB are output spaces to adapt to the output medium.
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Old 02-26-2013   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwardKaraa View Post
By the way is there any technical reason that one should use embedded instead of adobe standard? Maybe color accuracy or something similar? I read somewhere that the M9 color emulates Kodachrome 25. Sorry for asking but I'm new to this. My M9 is only 7 days old
did leica or adobe used zeiss lenses when they were making those profiles? probably not.

edit to clarify: zeiss lenses deliver different colors than leica (probably caused by different coating), i suppose that leica or adobe used leica lenses when they measured the sensors color response and built the profile.
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Old 02-27-2013   #9
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This thread has rambled a bit, but the original question was about the profiles you'll find in the Profile menu in the Camera Calibration panel in LR's Develop module.

It's not hard to make your own camera calibration profiles (you might want different profiles for daylight, tungsten, etc) using Adobe's free DNG Profile Editor and a 24-patch colour checker from X-Rite (formerly Gretag Macbeth).
You can add these to the Profile menu, and maybe to your Import Preset. I generally make my own custom Daylight Profile on the first dry, bright day after I buy a new digital camera, and have preferred these to embedded or Adobe Standard profiles in 99% of daylight (and great majority of other) shots. Bear in mind these profiles are intended to be used at import, and provide a starting point/ context for work in the Develop module: the camera profile should be set before white balance, tonal or colour adjustments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellomikmik View Post
did leica or adobe used zeiss lenses when they were making those profiles? probably not.
Lens Profiles are another thing entirely. They're for correcting lens-specific optical aberrations, and LR now has a good stock of Leica lens profiles. For Zeiss or CV lenses, and unlisted Leica lenses, I think we're likely to be on our own, with only something like Adobe's free Lens Profile Creator to allow us to build profiles for our own lenses. It's free, but looks daunting, and so far nobody seems to have uploaded any profiles for RF lenses...

Maybe somebody here has tried it and can report on their experiences
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Old 02-27-2013   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
So easily tweaked in post processing - rather irrelevant.
As for color space: Prophoto to avoid color clipping - sRGB and Adobe RGB are output spaces to adapt to the output medium.
It all depends on how you are using your images. sRGB is good for the web. It plays well with JPEG. Adobe RGB 1998 is fine for most purposes. Prophoto retains the most color information.

In a color managed workflow a camera profile is assigned at capture then it is converted into an editing space like Prophoto/Adobe RGB 1998/sRGB and finally a paper/canvas/film profile is assigned at output in the printer driver. Using Prophoto is a great practice but your printer may not support this space. Most printers hit a color output somewhere between Adobe 1998 and sRGB.

Kodak mapped the M8 and M9 sensor output to look like Kodachrome 64. That is the reds, greens, blues and yellows conform to similar numeric values as measured from this transparency film. In practice the M8 and M9 have a greater dynamic range while retaining the qualities that Paul Simon praised in his music. Like Paul, the M8 and M9 are destined to be classics.
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Old 02-27-2013   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim-st View Post
This thread has rambled a bit, but the original question was about the profiles you'll find in the Profile menu in the Camera Calibration panel in LR's Develop module.

It's not hard to make your own camera calibration profiles...

Maybe somebody here has tried it and can report on their experiences
Perhaps I too misunderstood the OP question. I use EyeOne's Profile Maker Pro to create profiles for my BetterLight scanback, scanners and the media I print on my Epsons. Using a color managed workflow is a must in art reproduction. But when it comes to my Leica files, I've been quite happy just to convert them using ACR and tweak them in PS 6. I'm not using my Leicas to shoot fashion, products or art so an exact color match is not necessary. My Leica photos just need to make me happy and please the galleries that carry my work.
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Old 02-27-2013   #12
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I believe the OP was asking only about the choice between the two profiles offered in LR/ACR – Embedded or Adobe Standard.

IMO the embedded Leica profile places too much emphasis on reds, especially in bright sunlight; also in skin tones. You can switch to Adobe Standard for a bit of improvement, or use the Red slider for more.

(I checked 'Depends on photo' in the little poll.)
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Old 02-27-2013   #13
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I create my own profiles under the lighting conditions I'm shooting. I process in LR4. Much better than what's provided.
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Old 06-12-2013   #14
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I use Adobe Standard when I can. In LR4 there is no Adobe Standard option for a X2 so I used embedded. I'm interested in learning more about this. Good thread.
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Old 06-12-2013   #15
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ACR and sRGB are what I know
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Old 06-12-2013   #16
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Since I started this thread, I have switched back and forth between Adobe Standard and Embedded. Contrarily to what I posted earlier, I think Adobe Standard produces the most neutral (or standard) results. Embedded is definitely not neutral, and the skin tones can be quite magenta. It has also higher default saturation and contrast. But it can produce much more interesting Kodachrome-like results. I am still using Adobe Standard as the main profile as I have been mostly complemented about skin tones with this profile. But deep inside I still like Embedded because it's different.
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Old 06-13-2013   #17
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I'm using the Huelight profiles for my M-E. Normally the standard one. If I want a little more punch to start with before I begin post process I will use the High version.

http://www.colorfidelity.com/
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Old 06-13-2013   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim-st View Post
This thread has rambled a bit, but the original question was about the profiles you'll find in the Profile menu in the Camera Calibration panel in LR's Develop module.

It's not hard to make your own camera calibration profiles (you might want different profiles for daylight, tungsten, etc) using Adobe's free DNG Profile Editor and a 24-patch colour checker from X-Rite (formerly Gretag Macbeth).
You can add these to the Profile menu, and maybe to your Import Preset. I generally make my own custom Daylight Profile on the first dry, bright day after I buy a new digital camera, and have preferred these to embedded or Adobe Standard profiles in 99% of daylight (and great majority of other) shots. Bear in mind these profiles are intended to be used at import, and provide a starting point/ context for work in the Develop module: the camera profile should be set before white balance, tonal or colour adjustments.



Lens Profiles are another thing entirely. They're for correcting lens-specific optical aberrations, and LR now has a good stock of Leica lens profiles. For Zeiss or CV lenses, and unlisted Leica lenses, I think we're likely to be on our own, with only something like Adobe's free Lens Profile Creator to allow us to build profiles for our own lenses. It's free, but looks daunting, and so far nobody seems to have uploaded any profiles for RF lenses...

Maybe somebody here has tried it and can report on their experiences
Absolutely correct. It fixed the colors of my M8 so it is close to the M9.

Then go into ACR preferences and check the box to make default setting specific to camera serial number. Then save profile and other tweeks as new camera raw defaults. Close and reopen PS and the new profile is automatically applied. You will still need to WB the photo.
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Old 06-13-2013   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald M View Post
Absolutely correct. It fixed the colors of my M8 so it is close to the M9.

Then go into ACR preferences and check the box to make default setting specific to camera serial number. Then save profile and other tweeks as new camera raw defaults. Close and reopen PS and the new profile is automatically applied. You will still need to WB the photo.
Ronald M, what is absolutely correct....???

I hate what the M9 does with reds. How do I fix that?
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Old 06-14-2013   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duane Pandorf View Post
I'm using the Huelight profiles for my M-E. Normally the standard one. If I want a little more punch to start with before I begin post process I will use the High version.

http://www.colorfidelity.com/
Thank you very much for this valuable piece of info, Duane.

Could you please let us know more in detail the reasons why you prefer these custom profiles, or perhaps show one simple comparison with adobe standard vs color fidelity?
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Old 06-17-2013   #21
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+1 for the huelight profiles. Much beter colour as far as I'm concerned. Ive made several of my own profiles and Colin's are better than any of them. well worth the 10.00.

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Old 07-12-2013   #22
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just placed an order for the huelight profiles ... excited to try them based on the testimonials above, thanks Duane and Gordon.

Update: Received the huelight profiles over the weekend. Three copied into LR 4.3 profile folder: Low, Standard, and High. Initial rest drive, running some ambient indoor mixed lighting files with the huelight profiles (torture test) - very pleasing results. Better skin tones than embedded or Adobe Standard, clearly, and nice baseline contrast from which to start tweaking.

If I have time this week, I'll post some comparisons.
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Old 08-19-2013   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCTuomey View Post
just placed an order for the huelight profiles ... excited to try them based on the testimonials above, thanks Duane and Gordon.

Update: Received the huelight profiles over the weekend. Three copied into LR 4.3 profile folder: Low, Standard, and High. Initial rest drive, running some ambient indoor mixed lighting files with the huelight profiles (torture test) - very pleasing results. Better skin tones than embedded or Adobe Standard, clearly, and nice baseline contrast from which to start tweaking.

If I have time this week, I'll post some comparisons.
So Mike, how are the profiles working for you so far?
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Old 03-18-2014   #24
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Adobe Lab> profile editor and profile the camera for 6500k and 2800k. Then set the ACR to recognize the camera by serial number. Color will be correct.

Whi Bal card gets you correct in camera. Save as a profile . I use profile 1 as daylight, do one for flash, override any for special conditions but do not save.

Whi Bal allows magenta/green to be set properly. Leica only allows blue/yellow . Now color is correct in camera. Profile is set in ACR.

Gone are color management issues to a large extent.
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Profiles Are Not Color Spaces
Old 02-20-2017   #25
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Profiles Are Not Color Spaces

Different LR Camera Calibrations use different parameters in the raw-file demosaicing algorithms. One of the many things these parameters affect is hue rendition. In LR these are selected using the Camera Calibration panel. There are two main options - the Process and the Profile.

LR 6 has three Processes - 2003, 2010 and 2012. Older versions may not have 2012. Different Processes use different rendering algorithms. If you can use 2012, I can't think of a single advantage to using older Processes.

The Camera Calibration Profiles use different variables in the Process rendering algorithms. The Profiles are meant to accommodate differences between cameras. Different sensor color-filter array properties are accommodated by different Profiles.

Adobe Standard is the default raw file rendering based on Adobe Labs' empirical testing.

Adobe also provides Profiles for raw rendering that are purposed and specific to a camera. In some cases Adobe attempts to reproduce the set of in-camera JPEG profiles. One can also create and use custom Profiles using several different calibration tools. Creating a custom Profile without a carefully calibrated monitor is a fool's errand. As with all LR raw renderings using any of the Camera Calibration options is reversible.

The Embedded Profile applies to in-camera JPEGs (or other devices whose on-board firmware controls raw rendering). For in-camera JPEGS LR uses JPEG rendering parameters form the camera menu options. TIFF image files from my iPhone also use an Embedded Profile.

The color space is completely different. LR uses ProPhotoRGB for on-screen rendering. When you export an image you get to choose its color space. As mentioned above, sRGB, Adobe RGB, etc, have different purposes and should be selected to match the technical aspects of the viewing platform, including the printer's software and hardware. Photo editors, marketing directors, print labs and consumer printer documentation usually specify the color space.

Problems with global color rendering can be resolved several ways. One is to use a Profile you prefer. Creating your own custom Profile provides complete flexibility. The other is to create a custom user Development Preset. A Development Preset operates on any Profile's default rendering. As mentioned above it is trivial to apply any Development Preset automatically upon import.
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