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Frank Jackson on Street Photography I am happy and excited to announce a new RFF forum on Street Photography mentored by Frank Jackson, one of the best producers of analog B/W prints I have ever seen. His shows include the Open Shutter Gallery, Heriard-Cimino Gallery, and Ogden Museum of Southern Art. His images are in the collections of Smithsonian Ogden Museum of Southern Art, California Afro American Museum and Xavier University New Orleans LA. He has worked for or has been featured with Visa Card, Xerox, UCLA, Eric Owen Moss, Architect, Hasselblad Forum (cover),Gordon Parks, Muhammed Ali, Million Man March Wash. DC, Lionel Hampton, jazz legion photographer , 1995-2002, Stevie Wonder, B+W Magazine (British version) twice, Rangefinder Magazine, Dahon Bicycles, Arelli Wheels, Real Product Design, Automobile Club of Southern California. Frank's online images are at fotographz.500px.com and fotographzfrankjackson.tumblr.com . "While on this diverse photographic journey…I have to say during this whole time my love for fine art black and white photography kept growing. I always found time to shoot in different cities and my own personal work…this has sustained me through some very tough times. As of 2012, with the help of a very good friend I maintain a state-of-the-art dream darkroom. The darkroom helps greatly in the on-going practice of understanding “the light”, being able to process film and print drives me to keep my digital photography “organic”. I’m curious visually and shooting what’s, what on the street feeds this curiosity. Everyday I walk out my front door to “see” the world with a digital camera, a film camera, the “cup” and an open mind (mostly).

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Street Photography clichés, no no's and taboos.
Old 02-17-2015   #1
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Street Photography clichés, no no's and taboos.

I was just browsing through Frank's mobile phone inspired thread and the first thing that came to mind (as well as thankfully being surprised by a few of the images in there) was, what is the general consensus on certain trite street photography subjects? You know, the ones we have all been guilty of at some point, but generally have been done to death and rarely offer anything really engaging for the audience?

Examples?

People just walking.
People walling with bags of shopping.
People on mobiles (cell phones)
People walking, using mobiles.
Buskers.
That same street performer who appears to be in every city in the world, no matter where you go.
People selling huge bunches of balloons.
And, arguably, the homeless (perhaps deserving of its own thread at some point?).

This is, of course, by no means a definitive list, but with the absence of any other additional factor, be it lighting, composition or content etc, that may set them apart from being decidedly ordinary or at the very least, subjects that overly saturate the genre, do you still consider these subjects worthy of constant documentation?

I realise there will be no right answer. Like everything else, this will be subjective. The list above, I am guilty of shooting every one of them, but equally, its what I avoid now (though I am mulling the last entry as a possible occasional exception) as I just don't engage with them. Do you? And, if so, why do you, for example, engage with an image of someone simply walking, perhaps in profile, in public?

I'd be interested to read everyone's thoughts
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Old 02-17-2015   #2
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it's all pretty much been done before...the trick is converting your vision/interpretation and catching a new moment/twist on it...
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Old 02-17-2015   #3
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Common and repetitive discussion, it seems.
I'll repeat with copy/paste from OP first:

Quote:
"People on mobiles (cell phones)
People walking, using mobiles.
Buskers.
...Street performer...
...the homeless ..."
Plus, "making huge bubbles" snapshots.
Also old folks faces while they suffer, plus "eating food" faces, any faces taken with long tele and nothing else in the frame.
I do not take pictures of people with some problems.
And I'm not into peoples back's, "legs and road" as well.

But if it is interesting light, geometry, motion and such I like to have "people just walking".
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Old 02-17-2015   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by back alley View Post
it's all pretty much been done before...the trick is converting your vision/interpretation and catching a new moment/twist on it...
Oh, I agree, Joe - but with these particular subjects, because of the ease of accessibility, being virtually hammered by all and sundry, how does one make a picture of someone just walking down the street interesting?

It can be done, of course, but that would need that extra element or two, I previously mentioned. How many of us, hand on heart, publish images of someone just walking around, that is anything more than ordinary? And by ordinary, I mean, forgetting any technical merit, but is worth more than a passing glance and a polite bit of feed back, as we are generally well mannered?
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Old 02-17-2015   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black View Post
I was just browsing through Frank's mobile phone inspired thread and the first thing that came to mind (as well as thankfully being surprised by a few of the images in there) was, what is the general consensus on certain trite street photography subjects? You know, the ones we have all been guilty of at some point, but generally have been done to death and rarely offer anything really engaging for the audience?

Examples?

People just walking.
People walling with bags of shopping.
People on mobiles (cell phones)
People walking, using mobiles.
Buskers.
That same street performer who appears to be in every city in the world, no matter where you go.
People selling huge bunches of balloons.
And, arguably, the homeless (perhaps deserving of its own thread at some point?).


This is, of course, by no means a definitive list, but with the absence of any other additional factor, be it lighting, composition or content etc, that may set them apart from being decidedly ordinary or at the very least, subjects that overly saturate the genre, do you still consider these subjects worthy of constant documentation?

I realise there will be no right answer. Like everything else, this will be subjective. The list above, I am guilty of shooting every one of them, but equally, its what I avoid now (though I am mulling the last entry as a possible occasional exception) as I just don't engage with them. Do you? And, if so, why do you, for example, engage with an image of someone simply walking, perhaps in profile, in public?

I'd be interested to read everyone's thoughts
... and;

Photos taken from behind the subject
Photos shot through coffee shop windows
Photos that have been over-processed or that have artsy borders
Anything taken from more than 20ft
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Old 02-17-2015   #6
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Backs are the biggest taboo for me personally, mostly because they are uninteresting and are less expressive than fronts. But occasionally I do it.

For me street photography is in the interaction with people and the urban environment, Sometimes they are walking or on their phones. Not sure why that would be taboo.

I'm not into posed portraity street photography but that's me. Lots of people consider this valid. Also not big on the irony between the billboard in the background and the person in foreground, Matt Stuart does a lot of this and it gets tiresome quickly but sometimes it works. Also not big on animals, particularly cute ones. But I love Moriyama's Stray Dog.

Know the rules. Then break them.
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Old 02-17-2015   #7
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I probably take less photos these days because I'm trying to avoid taking the same shot time after time after time...
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Old 02-17-2015   #8
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Call me weird but for me being someone who shoots only film every shot has value whether the image, or the resources used to take the shot. I don't get that same sense of value from digital. A frame costs fraction of pennies if you want to factor in the battery power and mechanical wear and tear. These frames can be deleted and gone forever. A moment in time when that person could have been at their lowest can be simply discarded like it's nothing.

On film that moment will last there in the physical world. Right on the same roll with other images you shot.

This is just one way that I think. We are all human and I believe that we should show a little sensitivity for people who are down on their luck. Where I live I see homeless and individuals with addiction problems every day. The last thing I would want to do is to try to take advantage of their situation for an image.

Why not tell positive stories with our images instead of negative ones.
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Old 02-17-2015   #9
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"Know the rules. Then break them."

+ 1

Or, the only rule in photography is that there are no rules. (Fight Club reference)


But, because there is so much street photography out there, aided by the phone camera, there has to be something special for another street shot to grab your attention.
Just as there are so many sunset and flower shots.
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Old 02-17-2015   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ned Bojic View Post
Waiting next to a poster and shoot a person walking by.
Shoot a fat person next to an ad about losing weight, and so on. Where's thd merit?

Cars in the background, especially crossing people's bodies and heads. Bad backgrounds.

That's all below photography 101.
... 101 is the room that contained ones' greatest fear as in Orwell's book; whatever the rest of the world thinks ...

... and this is funny whatever you say

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Old 02-17-2015   #11
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You're right Chris. Sunbjects can become redundant.

This is where other elements can come to aid the photographer in creating something visually stimulating.

Line
Juxtoposition
Compositional creativity
Exposure creativity
Color (Dare I say it! )

etc...

This is just another girl walking away.
red by Adnan W, on Flickr
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Old 02-17-2015   #12
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The greats all used the things of their times in their work and why shouldn't you.

What some of the greats had to say about rules:
"Photography is not a sport. It has no rules. Everything must be dared and tried!" - Bill Brandt

"There are no rules and regulations for perfect composition. If there were we would be able to put all the information into a computer and would come out with a masterpiece. We know that's impossible. You have to compose by the seat of your pants." - Arnold Newman

"When subject matter is forced to fit into preconceived patterns, there can be no freshness of vision. Following rules of composition can only lead to a tedious repetition of pictorial cliches." - Edward Weston

"Anything that excites me, for any reason, I will photograph: not searching for unusual subject matter but making the commonplace unusual, nor indulging in extraordinary technique to attract attention. Work only when desire to the point of necessity impels – then do it honestly. Then so called “composition” becomes a personal thing, to be developed along with technique, as a personal way of seeing." - Edward Weston

"There are no rules for good photographs, there are only good photographs." - Ansel Adams "

To compose a subject well means no more than to see and present it in the strongest manner possible." - Edward Weston

"And in not learning the rules, I was free. I always say, you're either defined by the medium or you redefine the medium in terms of your needs." - Duane Michals

"What I write here is a description of what I have come to understand about photography, from photographing and from looking at photographs. A work of art is that thing whose form and content are organic to the tools and materials that made it. Still photography is a chemical, mechanical process. Literal description or the illusion of literal description, is what the tools and materials of still photography do better than any other graphic medium. A still photograph is the illusion of a literal description of how a camera saw a piece of time and space. Understanding this, one can postulate the following theorem: Anything and all things are photographable. A photograph can only look like how the camera saw what was photographed. Or, how the camera saw the piece of time and space is responsible for how the photograph looks. Therefore, a photograph can look any way. Or, there's no way a photograph has to look (beyond being an illusion of a literal description). Or, there are no external or abstract or preconceived rules of design that can apply to still photographs. I like to think of photographing as a two-way act of respect. Respect for the medium, by letting it do what it does best, describe. And respect for the subject, by describing as it is. A photograph must be responsible to both." - Garry Winogrand
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Old 02-17-2015   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparrow View Post
... 101 is the room that contained ones' greatest fear as in Orwell's book; whatever the rest of the world thinks ...

... and this is funny whatever you say

Wonderful catch Stewart!
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Old 02-17-2015   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airfrogusmc View Post
The greats all used the things of their times in their work and why shouldn't you.

What some of the greats had to say about rules:
"Photography is not a sport. It has no rules. Everything must be dared and tried!" - Bill Brandt

"There are no rules and regulations for perfect composition. If there were we would be able to put all the information into a computer and would come out with a masterpiece. We know that's impossible. You have to compose by the seat of your pants." - Arnold Newman

"When subject matter is forced to fit into preconceived patterns, there can be no freshness of vision. Following rules of composition can only lead to a tedious repetition of pictorial cliches." - Edward Weston

"Anything that excites me, for any reason, I will photograph: not searching for unusual subject matter but making the commonplace unusual, nor indulging in extraordinary technique to attract attention. Work only when desire to the point of necessity impels – then do it honestly. Then so called “composition” becomes a personal thing, to be developed along with technique, as a personal way of seeing." - Edward Weston

"There are no rules for good photographs, there are only good photographs." - Ansel Adams "

To compose a subject well means no more than to see and present it in the strongest manner possible." - Edward Weston

"And in not learning the rules, I was free. I always say, you're either defined by the medium or you redefine the medium in terms of your needs." - Duane Michals

"What I write here is a description of what I have come to understand about photography, from photographing and from looking at photographs. A work of art is that thing whose form and content are organic to the tools and materials that made it. Still photography is a chemical, mechanical process. Literal description or the illusion of literal description, is what the tools and materials of still photography do better than any other graphic medium. A still photograph is the illusion of a literal description of how a camera saw a piece of time and space. Understanding this, one can postulate the following theorem: Anything and all things are photographable. A photograph can only look like how the camera saw what was photographed. Or, how the camera saw the piece of time and space is responsible for how the photograph looks. Therefore, a photograph can look any way. Or, there's no way a photograph has to look (beyond being an illusion of a literal description). Or, there are no external or abstract or preconceived rules of design that can apply to still photographs. I like to think of photographing as a two-way act of respect. Respect for the medium, by letting it do what it does best, describe. And respect for the subject, by describing as it is. A photograph must be responsible to both." - Garry Winogrand
Oh, and anything in quotation marks
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Old 02-17-2015   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black View Post
Oh, I agree, Joe - but with these particular subjects, because of the ease of accessibility, being virtually hammered by all and sundry, how does one make a picture of someone just walking down the street interesting?

It can be done, of course, but that would need that extra element or two, I previously mentioned. How many of us, hand on heart, publish images of someone just walking around, that is anything more than ordinary? And by ordinary, I mean, forgetting any technical merit, but is worth more than a passing glance and a polite bit of feed back, as we are generally well mannered?
.... ordinary?

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Old 02-17-2015   #16
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Somebody once said that there are only 7 basic stories in fiction. And yet there have been millions and millions of stories ever written. The same is true in photography.

I shoot what I want to shoot; if it turns out to be a cliche, so be it. However, there are personal no-no's that I won't shoot, such as a mother breast-feeding in public or other subjects of that nature.

Also, I won't shoot a person in immediate harm (car accident, fire, etc, ...) -- more important for me to help such a person rather than take a picture.
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Old 02-17-2015   #17
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Quote:
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.... ordinary?
Yeah. Not in an insulting way, but something other than extraordinary. Again (and I'm very ware that I'm starting to sound like a broken record), personally, a person just walking will always be just that, unless there are other elements that elevate the image. Layering / no cross overs etc.

Layering will be something new to me (and its not necessarily something I subscribe to), as I'm a shallow DOF shooter in the main. Going to give it a punt though, just because it'll stretch me a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparrow View Post
... and;

Photos taken from behind the subject
Photos shot through coffee shop windows
Photos that have been over-processed or that have artsy borders
Anything taken from more than 20ft
Ooo, that's contentious. Processing changes the aesthetic, but not really the content. Sometimes it'll add to the overall impact, sometimes it'll detract. My current project involves quite a lot of processing, giving quite harsh look - but its not like the fashionable crushed blacks and high contrast of the Provoke (or GR) aesthetic. Which I also like, but always dependant on content.
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Old 02-17-2015   #18
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Chris, I pretty much agree with your list and with other additions offered by others here. But I'd say that there are all sorts of things that can intervene to make a picture on that list work. At the moment I'm thinking of a lot of Saul Leiter's street images: people just walking, but with an interesting bit of color or a slash of light or the added compositional elements shooting through windows or from under an umbrella.

Street photography is a very complicated endeavor. A photographer working in that genre has to make split-second decisions that can leave him/her with a masterpiece or a boring snapshot. When we look at the contact sheets from someone like Winogrand or Levitt or Maier, we can see that they had to winnow down a LOT of so-so stuff to find the diamonds.
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Old 02-17-2015   #19
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Somebody once said that there are only 7 basic stories in fiction. And yet there have been millions and millions of stories ever written. The same is true in photography.

I shoot what I want to shoot; if it turns out to be a cliche, so be it. However, there are personal no-no's that I won't shoot, such as a mother breast-feeding in public or other subjects of that nature.

Also, I won't shoot a person in immediate harm (car accident, fire, etc, ...) -- more important for me to help such a person rather than take a picture.
... or women with a moustache, that's just wrong

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Old 02-17-2015   #20
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Originally Posted by Sparrow View Post
.... ordinary?

Confusing the originality/interesting quality of the subject with the originality/interesting qualities of a photograph is a biggest misconception of all to me.
Interesting subject- mediocre picture (will i be banned for this?)
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Old 02-17-2015   #21
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Yeah. Not in an insulting way, but something other than extraordinary. Again (and I'm very ware that I'm starting to sound like a broken record), personally, a person just walking will always be just that, unless there are other elements that elevate the image. Layering / no cross overs etc.

Layering will be something new to me (and its not necessarily something I subscribe to), as I'm a shallow DOF shooter in the main. Going to give it a punt though, just because it'll stretch me a bit.



Ooo, that's contentious. Processing changes the aesthetic, but not really the content. Sometimes it'll add to the overall impact, sometimes it'll detract. My current project involves quite a lot of processing, giving quite harsh look - but its not like the fashionable crushed blacks and high contrast of the Provoke (or GR) aesthetic. Which I also like, but always dependant on content.
... I like contentious, otherwise it would be all grain, contrast and dark in the corners ... what's layering anyway? ... that menu in photoshop?
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Old 02-17-2015   #22
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Jamie,

Yep. There's no right or wrong answer - the thread is really for bouncing opinion and ideas around. I have my own idea of what I find to make an interesting photograph and there'll be lots of people who find the stuff that I like leaving them cold.

I suppose I'm being quite provocative - but I'm sort of asking "do you really find images of [insert topic from list] interesting enough publish and warrant feedback?". The answer is of course, yes, or else these images would not be shared.

For me, street photography is about clever one liners. When a story is being told in a succession of images, it evolves into social documentary. Semantics, I know, but there you go. But if that definition was to be true (and I am not, by any means, the definitive street photographers wiki) then do images that do not push the boundaries become redundant?

Street photography is a very difficult genre to do well. And it's also unique in that it has no unique selling point. I'd assume (and it is only an assumption) that its probably the one photographic genre that earns the least amount of people the least amount of money?

I'm going off on an tangent, but I'm sure you follow what I'm trying to ask?

Okay, I'm not so sure...
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Old 02-17-2015   #23
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Originally Posted by Black View Post
I was just browsing through Frank's mobile phone inspired thread and the first thing that came to mind (as well as thankfully being surprised by a few of the images in there) was, what is the general consensus on certain trite street photography subjects? You know, the ones we have all been guilty of at some point, but generally have been done to death and rarely offer anything really engaging for the audience?

Examples?

People just walking.
People walling with bags of shopping.
People on mobiles (cell phones)
People walking, using mobiles.
Buskers.
That same street performer who appears to be in every city in the world, no matter where you go.
People selling huge bunches of balloons.
And, arguably, the homeless (perhaps deserving of its own thread at some point?).

This is, of course, by no means a definitive list, but with the absence of any other additional factor, be it lighting, composition or content etc, that may set them apart from being decidedly ordinary or at the very least, subjects that overly saturate the genre, do you still consider these subjects worthy of constant documentation?

I realise there will be no right answer. Like everything else, this will be subjective. The list above, I am guilty of shooting every one of them, but equally, its what I avoid now (though I am mulling the last entry as a possible occasional exception) as I just don't engage with them. Do you? And, if so, why do you, for example, engage with an image of someone simply walking, perhaps in profile, in public?

I'd be interested to read everyone's thoughts
Like Joe stated "It's all been done before" but what makes the random photograph fun for me to view is, & I said this in another thread, I get to see what the photographer saw & chose to shoot. It may be random to most but I still get excited as a kid in a toy store when I view photographs. Street corners, towns, cities, places that I will never personally get to visit.
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Old 02-17-2015   #24
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Confusing the originality/interesting quality of the subject with the originality/interesting qualities of a photograph is a biggest misconception of all to me.
Interesting subject- mediocre picture (will i be banned for this?)
I was rushed, what can I say?

PS ... and, I do hope so

Chris; there are lots of wrong answers, haven't you noticed?
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Old 02-17-2015   #25
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... I like contentious, otherwise it would be all grain, contrast and dark in the corners ... what's layering anyway? ... that menu in photoshop?
Layering is when there usually very deep DOF and lots of interesting elements are all caught in the same frame at the same time. Consider it as something that is "content rich".

Or "lucky"
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Old 02-17-2015   #26
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Layering is when there usually very deep DOF and lots of interesting elements are all caught in the same frame at the same time. Consider it as something that is "content rich".

Or "lucky"
Ah, I see ... like those landscapes I don't like?
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Old 02-17-2015   #27
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Ah, I see ... like those landscapes I don't like?

You must not like Landscapes at all since shallow DOF Landscapes is also a do not like
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Old 02-17-2015   #28
Michael Markey
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Jamie,

Yep. There's no right or wrong answer - the thread is really for bouncing opinion and ideas around. I have my own idea of what I find to make an interesting photograph and there'll be lots of people who find the stuff that I like leaving them cold.

I suppose I'm being quite provocative - but I'm sort of asking "do you really find images of [insert topic from list] interesting enough publish and warrant feedback?". The answer is of course, yes, or else these images would not be shared.

Chris

I`ve always had the impression that street photography was the one area which interested you the least.

I can`t really help you with that because if you view many street images dispassionately many will fall into those categories you`ve already cited.

Myself I`m not too concerned because I shoot what I find interesting ...that`s it really .

I like being out on the streets and the possibility of interaction.
I find people interesting even if I don`t manage to get any good shots.

If you can`t find anything interesting on the street then maybe you are in the wrong place.
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Old 02-17-2015   #29
OurManInTangier
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I find photographs shot on anything longer than 24mm and further away than 1ft a no-no. The rest doesn't matter so long as you adhere to this one iron clad rule. Of course I'm a walking cliche of a street photographer

Quick question. If I can't photograph from behind how am I supposed to get creepy shots of young women in short shorts?
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Old 02-17-2015   #30
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Ah, I see ... like those landscapes I don't like?
To a certain extent, yes It's something that is quite prevalent in the likes of the HCSP group on Flickr and the inevitable collectives formed from there. I'm not a fan of applying rules to genre's and, if there are established rules, then I certainly advocate breaking them as often as possible.

Layering, to me seems to be 90% luck, machine gunning and patient editing. Practitioners will argue its about observation, practice and patience. So, the patience bit we agree on.
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Old 02-17-2015   #31
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On second thought... I'm pretty sure all clichés are true.
So when capturing one, a photographer is just revealing the truth in his/her image.
Nothng wrong with that is there?

Mr. Moustache by Adnan W, on Flickr
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Old 02-17-2015   #32
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Originally Posted by Michael Markey View Post
Chris

I`ve always had the impression that street photography was the one area which interested you the least.

I can`t really help you with that because if you view many street images dispassionately many will fall into those categories you`ve already cited.

Myself I`m not too concerned because I shoot what I find interesting ...that`s it really .

I like being out on the streets and the possibility of interaction.
I find people interesting even if I don`t manage to get any good shots.

If you can`t find anything interesting on the street then maybe you in the wrong place.
Mike, it probably is and that's probably because the more I expose myself to it, the more it seems to be a case of diminishing returns. But, it is also one of the more accessible genre's. I have taken an extend break from shooting street for some time. I don't want to paint myself into a corner as a decidedly amateur photographer and fully expect for my interests in differing genres to shift as often as the wind changes direction. And why shouldn't it? I see merit in most genre's, but that doesn't mean I want to practice them.

I don't think anyone should give two hoots about what others think about their shots if they're not trying to make money. Any rare compliment, I will happily take and a pleasant by-product of any photos I take.

I find plenty interesting on the street. Shooting street shots is what has led me to doing a long term project and because of that, I will always keep my hand in street shooting. My output isn't massive, but that is because I feel zero pressure to publish anything for the sake of third party expectation. Thats one of the joys of being very amateur.
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Old 02-17-2015   #33
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Quick question. If I can't photograph from behind how am I supposed to get creepy shots of young women in short shorts?
I have examined the RFF gallery and am sure that there is someone who is excellently qualified to answer that very question, Simon
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Old 02-17-2015   #34
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... like this, although I did this on porpoise

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Old 02-17-2015   #35
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Boring photos and obnoxious pictures of homeless people.

99.9% of street photography I see online is really really boring and as far as I can tell completely pointless.
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Old 02-17-2015   #36
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Boring photos and obnoxious pictures of homeless people.

99.9% of street photography I see online is really really boring and as far as I can tell completely pointless.
... do you think you possibly came to the wrong place then?
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Old 02-17-2015   #37
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I feed the beast with my professional work so I can shoot whatever I want how ever I want to shoot it with no pressure to make $$$ with personal work though I have had some success with my personal work. Just not enough to give the family the life they so deserve.

As far as telling others how and what they should photograph, I believe as Ansel Adams believed:
"No man has the right to dictate what other men should perceive, create or produce, but all should be encouraged to reveal themselves, their perceptions and emotions, and to build confidence in the creative spirit."-Ansel Adams
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Old 02-17-2015   #38
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Originally Posted by OurManInTangier View Post
...
Quick question. If I can't photograph from behind how am I supposed to get creepy shots of young women in short shorts?

Do it quick. But start to work slowly on it
First, start to take if from the side:


Beautiful ... morning. by Ko.Fe., on Flickr

Then start to take it in front, but while they are on "not aware mode" a.k.a. talking on the mobile.


Princess... St. by Ko.Fe., on Flickr

I'm on the second stage right now, can't take it from the hip level in front.
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Old 02-17-2015   #39
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The thing is most public life, especially if you shoot everyday and don't live in a big hustling city, is ordinary, but that isn't the problem with boring street photography.

It's people making the same pictures, same subject matter, same presentation etc. it's all become so uniform
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Old 02-17-2015   #40
Michael Markey
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99.9% of street photography I see online is really really boring and as far as I can tell completely pointless.
Like much of life then really
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