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Zeiss Contax Forum for the classic Zeiss Contax I, II, III, IIa, IIIa , G series, and if you want to push it, the nice Contax point and shoots. Some spill over from the Kievs, the Soviet copy of the Contax II/III can also be expected. Plus the ONLY production camera ever made in classic Zeiss Contax Rangefinder mount WITH TTL metering ... the Voigtlander Bessa R2C.

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Old 10-29-2016   #81
Erik van Straten
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Great work of both Deklari and Michael. This is essential for really understanding the mechanism of the Contax I. The drawing of Deklari is priceless! The central spring is the aorta of the Contax I. The lesson to learn is never to buy a broken Contax I without checking this part, wich is very difficult.

Erik.
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Old 10-29-2016   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik van Straten View Post
Great work of both Deklari and Michael. This is essential for really understanding the mechanism of the Contax I. The drawing of Deklari is priceless! The central spring is the aorta of the Contax I. The lesson to learn is never to buy a broken Contax I without checking this part, wich is very difficult.

Erik.
Erik,

You and others deserve credit for some very good advice and suggestions without which I wouldn't have got this far. Deklari does indeed deserve credit for his great drawing.

Next week I'm going to phone a couple of old retired repair people I used to deal with. Both have said in the past that they had a box of early Contax bits somewhere.

This is my first course of action and if it fails I will destroy a Kiev...though I am not sure that I have the skills to instal springs into a roller.
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Old 10-29-2016   #83
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Good luck Michael. Keep us informed.

Erik.
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Old 10-29-2016   #84
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Originally Posted by Dralowid View Post
So if a anyone can offer a step by step of dismantling the roller it would be a great help.
IF it is constructed the same as the Contax II/III/Kiev it is not difficult to get it apart. This is from my notes:

Remove soft pad after marking its position. Isopropyl alcohol may help release.
[I don't see this pad on your Contax I pictures so maybe it doesn't exist on the 'I']

Remove screws and end caps and detach ribbons from their mounts.
[The end-caps just slide off when you have removed the little countersunk screws, and the ribbon loops will slide off - you don't have to cut your new ribbons!]

Rotate spring clip so that end of curtain is at the gap.

Slide curtain out of slot.
[The slot in the 1st curtain roller]

Remove 4 countersunk steel screws from outer sleeve.
[These hold the bearing bushes]

Open the sleeve slightly by wedging a piece of .015"? shim in the slot. Pull out inner spindle with springs and bearings holding on to the pulley (from the RH end to avoid coggling springs).
[It should slide out easily: force may damage springs]

The LH ribbon pulley can be removed over the spring if the tiny screw is removed to separate it from its bearing, but dismantling cannot go further without detaching the LH spring from the axle, which would mean bending the inner end of the spring and probably destroying it due to the tight fitting.

When reassembling the inner spindle to the outer sleeve insert it from the LH end and push on the axle (open the slot slightly as before, and insert the shim far enough so that it forms a guide to keep the inner bushes in line).


I hope this makes some kind of sense. Let me know if it doesn't. As Deklari has suggested, it may be very difficult to replace a spring because of the way it is attached to the axle, but I think it may be possible for a centre spring to become unhooked if the roller is tensioned in the wrong direction.
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Old 10-29-2016   #85
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[quote=Dralowid;2661885]

New drawing of anatomy bottom roller
It is a same as Kiev or Contax II/III.. only different central axis have left adjustment for screwdriver (Contax II/III, Kiev from right)
Contax II/III, Kiev roller (not central axis)a little wider. ContaxIspringA.jpg
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Old 10-29-2016   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grytpype View Post
IF it is constructed the same as the Contax II/III/Kiev it is not difficult to get it apart. This is from my notes:

I hope this makes some kind of sense. Let me know if it doesn't. As Deklari has suggested, it may be very difficult to replace a spring because of the way it is attached to the axle, but I think it may be possible for a centre spring to become unhooked if the roller is tensioned in the wrong direction.
Thanks! It totally make sense
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Old 10-29-2016   #87
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One more picture of bottom roller
contax1aa.jpg
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Old 10-29-2016   #88
Erik van Straten
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[quote=Deklari;2661958]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dralowid View Post

New drawing of anatomy bottom roller
It is a same as Kiev or Contax II/III.. only different central axis have left adjustment for screwdriver (Contax II/III, Kiev from right)
Contax II/III, Kiev roller (not central axis)a little wider. Attachment 104939

Wauw! Rick Oleson must see this! Great work Deklari. You are a very gifted draughtsman! Thank you for sharing this!

Erik.
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Old 10-29-2016   #89
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I'll second that. Absolutely amazing!
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Old 10-29-2016   #90
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[quote=Erik van Straten;2661974]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deklari View Post


Wauw! Rick Oleson must see this! Great work Deklari. You are a very gifted draughtsman! Thank you for sharing this!

Erik.
Thanks Erik,
I have destroyed one Contax III and one Kiev to re- build one Contax III, Now I got Contax I. I hope this forum really help somebody. Best
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Old 10-29-2016   #91
Erik van Straten
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[quote=Deklari;2661958]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dralowid View Post

New drawing of anatomy bottom roller
It is a same as Kiev or Contax II/III.. only different central axis have left adjustment for screwdriver (Contax II/III, Kiev from right)
Contax II/III, Kiev roller (not central axis)a little wider. Attachment 104939
So maybe the springs of a Kiev can be used, (but not the central axis, if I understand well) if you can connect the springs to the axis of the Contax I of course.

Erik.
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Old 10-29-2016   #92
Deklari
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[quote=Erik van Straten;2661982]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deklari View Post

f you can connect the springs to the axis of the Contax I of course.

Erik.
This is most challenging part. I have try on Contax III..no luck, probably I don't have a right tools for this. I think two needle nose pliers will help. In general: first need to remove spring from one site (careful "unhook" from axis). Second re-move old central spring and install new one. Hook central spring to axis, after all, hook the site spring. Unfortunately to get just central spring... need to buy whole fully working Kiev camera from Russia/Ukraine . Fortunately, they cost 30-40$ on e-bay.
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Old 10-29-2016   #93
Erik van Straten
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[quote=Deklari;2661986]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik van Straten View Post

Unfortunately to get just central spring... need to buy whole fully working Kiev camera from Russia/Ukraine . Fortunately, they cost 30-40$ on e-bay.
Yes, but maybe the springs are still available as parts. So many Kievs have been made ...

Erik.
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Old 10-29-2016   #94
Deklari
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[quote=Erik van Straten;2661987]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deklari View Post

Yes, but maybe the springs are still available as parts. So many Kievs have been made ...

Erik.
Never see as parts. If any one know a good place of Kiev/Contax parts, place post here.
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Old 10-29-2016   #95
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Deklari, These drawings are better then anything I have seen of the spring and roller assembly. Thank you.

You and Rick should coordinate to build a new disassembly/assembly manual. As many of these cameras as I have floating around the house, I would be happy to pay the two of you for this.
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Old 10-29-2016   #96
Erik van Straten
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[quote=Deklari;2661988]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik van Straten View Post

Never see as parts. If any one know a good place of Kiev/Contax parts, place post here.
Maybe you can ask Oleg. A great repairman of Russian cameras.

okvintagecamera.com

Erik.
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Old 10-29-2016   #97
Dralowid
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Great drawings Deklari and thanks Grytpype too.

I'll dismantle the roller over the next day or so and post pics of your step by step
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Old 10-29-2016   #98
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[quote=Erik van Straten;2661994]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deklari View Post

Maybe you can ask Oleg. A great repairman of Russian cameras.

okvintagecamera.com

Erik.
Didn't he have a big fire a while back?
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Old 10-29-2016   #99
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Yes, but I think his camerabusiness is OK.

Erik.
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Old 10-29-2016   #100
Deklari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pioneer View Post
Deklari, These drawings are better then anything I have seen of the spring and roller assembly. Thank you.

You and Rick should coordinate to build a new disassembly/assembly manual. As many of these cameras as I have floating around the house, I would be happy to pay the two of you for this.
Thanks. I will think about. But my original plain to be photographer not a writer :-)
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Old 10-29-2016   #101
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[quote=Erik van Straten;2661994]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deklari View Post

Maybe you can ask Oleg. A great repairman of Russian cameras.

okvintagecamera.com

Erik.
Thanks Erik, I will ask him
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Old 10-29-2016   #102
Deklari
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I have other question. Do anyone have any information about speed setting knob, this part missing on my camera. I have made one, but still need information about "red" and "white" dot location on winding knob.
If pull knob where is a hole (see red arrow on picture) and where is dots (on clock scale) For example: hole on 12 and "red" dots on 9 and "white" on 6.. 11DSC1111.jpg
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Old 10-30-2016   #103
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Some years ago I phoned Ed Trotska (spelling???) in the UK. He is well known for working on Kievs and Contax II I think.

Has anyone got his number? I'd like to ask him if he has a 'box of useful bits'!

------------

Deklari, I could take pictures of my speed knob but I'm not sure if it would be much use and I'd rather not mess around with it while the rest of the camera is in pieces.

Also it is not the same version as yours and this is just the sort of detail that might have changed (?). I see you have the last version of the Contax, I'm sure someone here will have one.
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Old 10-30-2016   #104
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Just a thought (and off topic somewhat).

If one does have to sacrifice a Kiev to find a spring for the shutter roller one can also make use of the lens mount to make a Contax to Nex etc adaptor with a little ingenuity.

Michael
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Old 10-30-2016   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deklari View Post
I have other question. Do anyone have any information about speed setting knob, this part missing on my camera. I have made one, but still need information about "red" and "white" dot location on winding knob.
If pull knob where is a hole (see red arrow on picture) and where is dots (on clock scale) For example: hole on 12 and "red" dots on 9 and "white" on 6.. Attachment 104943
Hi Dekari,
I've got the same version as your one, a I (f) I think. I changed the shutter ribbons on it a few years ago and it's been working well so far. I just took screws off the speed knob on mine to check where the red and white dots are...

The white dot is right where your red arrow is, and the red one seems exactly a quarter of a turn to the right of it. So if the white is at 6 o'clock, the red is at 3 o'clock. (And the hole(your red arrow) is also at 6 o'clock.

Hope that helps
Nathan
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Old 10-30-2016   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dralowid View Post
Some years ago I phoned Ed Trotska (spelling???) in the UK. He is well known for working on Kievs and Contax II I think.

Has anyone got his number? I'd like to ask him if he has a 'box of useful bits'!


------------

Deklari, I could take pictures of my speed knob but I'm not sure if it would be much use and I'd rather not mess around with it while the rest of the camera is in pieces.

Also it is not the same version as yours and this is just the sort of detail that might have changed (?). I see you have the last version of the Contax, I'm sure someone here will have one.
Contact details for Ed Trzoska here.
http://europhotoservices.co.uk/
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Old 10-30-2016   #107
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There is a red dot @ 9 o'clock, with "Z" or "B" @ 11 o'clock and a white dot @ 7 o'clock and another white dot @ 4 o'clock and another red dot @ 1 o'clock. Not exactly, but it comes close. So a total of two red dots and two white dots.

Erik.
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Old 10-30-2016   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik van Straten View Post
There is a red dot @ 9 o'clock, with "Z" or "B" @ 11 o'clock and a white dot @ 7 o'clock and another white dot @ 4 o'clock and another red dot @ 1 o'clock. Not exactly, but it comes close. So a total of two red dots and two white dots.

Erik.
Grate! Thanks Nathan and Erik.
One more question. Why I need to set to "B"/"Z" when changing ribbons?
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Old 10-30-2016   #109
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Roller and springs...a few pictures to support Deklari's drawings following Grytpype's instructions both of which have been a great help.

The Contax I does have a 'soft pad' it is chamfered to help the blind lay flat.

At the start I didn't realise the significance of the central slot in the blind...

IMG_2832 by dralowid, on Flickr

Removing the end caps. Again I didn't know these came off. I wonder if it would be easier to sew loops into new ribbons and slide them on having removed the caps. Surely easier than wrestling with them on the shutter???

IMG_2834 by dralowid, on Flickr

When I did the ribbons I sewed them on quite tight and they have been difficult to get off. I don't know if I can get them on again...

IMG_2836 by dralowid, on Flickr

What didn't help is the increase in diameter that prevents them from sliding off. You can see I have started to slide the blind off.

IMG_2837 by dralowid, on Flickr

This picture tells a story. I didn't realise that the brass band around the centre of the roller was a sliding clip and didn't quite understand Grytpype's instructions (maybe I am not the sharpest lens in the bag). So I happily slid the shutter off before realising that I had left the last 'slat' on the roller. Touch and go for a moment or two but I have the blind back together now!

IMG_2840 by dralowid, on Flickr

Finally the central spring exposed. Now it may be just wishful thinking but as far as I could tell the hook 'anchor' on the left did not appear to be hooked in and therefore anchored. Who knows? I will fiddle with it and see if I can find a break but it does look a mess. I reckon replacing it is well beyond me, my fingers are too big!

IMG_2842 by dralowid, on Flickr

When blowing this picture up just now I realise the end of the spring should be neatly in the slot. I've done this now but there only appears to be around 3-4mm of anchorage. Is this correct or is this my problem!?!

IMG_2842-001 by dralowid, on Flickr

Time for a glass of something...

Michael
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Old 10-30-2016   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deklari View Post
Grate! Thanks Nathan and Erik.
One more question. Why I need to set to "B"/"Z" when changing ribbons?
At "B" or "Z" the tension is lowest (I guess).

Erik.
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Old 10-30-2016   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dralowid View Post

I realise the end of the spring should be neatly in the slot. I've done this now but there only appears to be around 3-4mm of anchorage. Is this correct or is this my problem!?!

Michael
3-4mm anchorage is correct
My spring looks exactly the same. My only question is if this mass make all problems? I also thinking to cut some mess spring part and re-hook good part at top. But this will change spring length, and maybe will not work.
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Old 10-30-2016   #112
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Well, I've been having a look at it and as yet I can't make it produce any worthwhile tension. Because it is a mess I think it just binds up. Will keep try and maybe, as you said by cutting some of the junk out it might improve...
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Old 10-30-2016   #113
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David, Make sure the coils of the spring run in sequence, if you see what I mean. It's possible for these springs to get sort of tangled, so that, for example, the second turn of the spring gets the wrong side of the fourth, and things can look pretty horrible.

If you want to try dismantling further:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deklari View Post
This is most challenging part. I have try on Contax III..no luck, probably I don't have a right tools for this. I think two needle nose pliers will help. In general: first need to remove spring from one site (careful "unhook" from axis). Second re-move old central spring and install new one. Hook central spring to axis, after all, hook the site spring.
This is as far as I have gone in stripping one. If the Contax I is the same, you can strip it this far from your present position, David, just by removing a tiny screw that holds one of the rollers to its bearing: it's the left hand roller in the Contax II/III/Kiev.



You will be able to see how difficult or easy it might be to remove the outer spring. In the spindle I've shown (Kiev 4A) the tail of the spring went through the spindle, round 180, and back through it again. They weren't taking a chance it might escape! I can't remember if Contax were the same.
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Old 10-30-2016   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grytpype View Post
David, Make sure the coils of the spring run in sequence, if you see what I mean. It's possible for these springs to get sort of tangled, so that, for example, the second turn of the spring gets the wrong side of the fourth, and things can look pretty horrible.
Make sense, Thanks

In the spindle I've shown (Kiev 4A) the tail of the spring went through the spindle, round 180, and back through it again. They weren't taking a chance it might escape! I can't remember if Contax were the same.[/quote]

Same in Contax I. Only problem is very stiff spring to "round 180, and back through it again". I always deform few coils spring during this installation and create mess again.
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Old 10-30-2016   #115
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Is it possible to change the tension of the central spring independant from the springs at the sides? If so, it is possible to give one of the curtains a different tension.

Erik.
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Old 10-30-2016   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik van Straten View Post
Is it possible to change the tension of the central spring independant from the springs at the sides? If so, it is possible to give one of the curtains a different tension.

Erik.
Only if rotate left central "cap" what have central spring anchor. But I guess it will be same effect if hold central axes of whole roller and rotate lower curtain around roller few time before installing ribbons.
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Old 10-30-2016   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik van Straten View Post
Is it possible to change the tension of the central spring independant from the springs at the sides? If so, it is possible to give one of the curtains a different tension.

Erik.
That's why I think it is so important that when 'at rest' the three tensions are roughly the same. Shortening the central spring would upset this.

And the fact that the central spring is a double helical shows Zeiss trying to make it have the same characteristics as the outer springs in a smaller width. (Well that's what I think but maybe I'm completely wrong)

I have not yet worked out how to set up a reliable test of the roller and springs on the workbench but will attempt something.

Michael
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Old 10-30-2016   #118
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I think it is very strange that there aren't any service manuals or construction books about these cameras. OK, the Russians took everything, but I can't believe the Germans were so stupid not to make any copies of those.

Erik.
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Old 10-30-2016   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik van Straten View Post
I think it is very strange that there aren't any service manuals or construction books about these cameras. OK, the Russians took everything, but I can't believe the Germans were so stupid not to make any copies of those.

Erik.
I think problem with new Contax II and III. C.Zeiss usually didn't keep old models on the market. When they start production of II and III, not necessary to keep old Contax I anymore, plus WWII, they start a new line of II/III, and Contax I just "forgotten". However it should be somewhere a service manual. Russian begin production of Kiev as copy Contax II and III , they also copy other Zeiss's model Supper Ikonta (Moskva2), Leica II and III (Fed, Zorki), but never Contax I, why?
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Old 10-30-2016   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik van Straten View Post
I think it is very strange that there aren't any service manuals or construction books about these cameras. OK, the Russians took everything, but I can't believe the Germans were so stupid not to make any copies of those.

Erik.
I have had the opportunity to study Maizenberg's repair manual for Russian cameras and he discusses the Kiev 2, 3 and 4 cameras in fair detail, but he never gets into the barrel itself or the replacement/adjustment of those springs. I suspect that this was considered a "modular part" and was replaced completely by technicians rather than disassembled and repaired.
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