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Old 09-24-2016   #41
Dralowid
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Fear not, I am far from defeated!

Can't really see how it would be out of sync unless something happened when the ribbon broke.

What I plan to do is to release the tension (6.5 turns), remove the cover and, in the red group, feel for the point at which the second curtain releases, the simplest way of doing this would be in in B/Z at the point when one takes one's finger off the shutter release. If this is obvious then my problem may lie with the curtains sticking together. If not then something more serious is involved.

We shall see!
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Old 09-24-2016   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dralowid View Post

B (or in this case Z) can be selected.

When fired both blinds run down without the shutter opening.
The same applies to the other slow 'red' speeds.

The mid range 'white' speeds allow the shutter to move more quickly however the blinds do not open. The escapement can still be heard.

The fast range of speeds are only selectable occasionally and the shutter does not open.

The advance/speed knob may need to be wound past its setting and back when winding on.
Sounds like the ribbons are too long with the two curtains not separating from each other when you wind in full.
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Old 09-24-2016   #43
Erik van Straten
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dralowid View Post

What I plan to do is to release the tension (6.5 turns), remove the cover and, in the red group, feel for the point at which the second curtain releases, the simplest way of doing this would be in in B/Z at the point when one takes one's finger off the shutter release.
It is very good to try to get the B (Z) working first. If that works everything is fundamentally OK.

When the tension is too low, at B (Z) the second curtain will not close completely and the first curtain will not roll up tight.

Erik.
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Old 09-24-2016   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway 61 View Post
Sounds like the ribbons are too long with the two curtains not separating from each other when you wind in full.
I am not sure this is right, but it is true that when the ribbons are too long the slit for 1/1000 sec. will be too narrow. The other speeds should work however when the ribbons are a little bit too long, they will only give a slightly shorter exposure.

Erik.
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Old 09-25-2016   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik van Straten View Post
I am not sure this is right, but it is true that when the ribbons are too long the slit for 1/1000 sec. will be too narrow. The other speeds should work however when the ribbons are a little bit too long, they will only give a slightly shorter exposure.

Erik.
True.

The two curtains travelling closed can also be the result of an uneven speed of the first curtain due to the ribbons not enroliing themselves properly.

Or of the second curtain travelling too fast because of the ribbons not having friction enough at the sliding clutches point.

In any case, the culprit is a small detail hidden somewhere. Good luck and don't give up.
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Old 09-25-2016   #46
Sarcophilus Harrisii
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It's an interesting comment about the ribbon length affecting the slit width, I've previously pondered this point, as far as I could tell, I also thought this may be one consequence.

It is sometimes said that these cameras should not be expected to actually achieve their maximum shutter speed. Notwithstanding other considerations like mechanical wear, adjustment or excessive friction, I wonder if a part of the reason for this may be the actual installed ribbon length being less than optimum for best accuracy?

When I did my first ribbon replacement to a II, my test film suggested slight underexposure, indicating the shutter was certainly not running slow. I used ribbons of precisely 5 inches length as suggested by Rick Oleson's notes. When I installed ribbons into another II (my third) on Friday night, because the ones in it were both intact (and I'm fairly certain, original) I took some trouble to break the stitching and remove them from both curtains intact instead of cutting them. Despite some fraying of the ends during the process of removing them from their slots at either end, both measured to within about a millimetre of 120mm which is slightly under the 5 inches (approx 127mm) I've previously used, and which has worked fairly well from what I've seen of films put through both examples. In the case of the II (& III) at least, there may be a tolerance of acceptable length ribbons as opposed to only one precise length, possibly? With the third one I worked on Friday night in which I installed 120mm ribbons it seems to be responding well at all the various speeds, but I've not yet had a chance to investigate it too closely.

Threads like this one are very interesting to me, because although some trial and error may be involved, the shared experiences of those of us prepared to work on our own Contaxes will hopefully add to the general knowledge of and understanding of these unique mechanisms.
Cheers,
Brett
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Old 09-25-2016   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcophilus Harrisii View Post
Threads like this one are very interesting to me, because although some trial and error may be involved, the shared experiences of those of us prepared to work on our own Contaxes will hopefully add to the general knowledge of and understanding of these unique mechanisms.
Yes, that is also my motivation to share my experiences in trying to get a Contax I to work!

About the length of the ribbons: of course their length is very important - it is a German camera - but as long as I do not know how long exactly they must be, I have to try something. I think the shutter will work too when the ribbons are slightly too long (about 5 mm max.). In that case only speeds like 1/1000 and 1/500 will be a little shorter than they should. With the mechanism open you can see that the split changes when you turn the speed selector.

However, I can not get to work the 1/100 and 1/200 from the "sports group" really good - there is no complete exposure of the frame - so something else must be wrong (too).

Erik.
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Old 09-25-2016   #48
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I measured the Contax I ribbons at 100mm or 3 15/16" using the old ribbons as a guide and taking into account fraying etc. 100mm sounds quite 'German'.

Bearing in mind that they were originally sewn by hand and that the two rollers have springs then I think some tolerance would be quite acceptable.

Today I have covered the camera with a cloth and we shall go out to lunch in a country pub. It would be unwise to attack it on my return!
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Old 09-25-2016   #49
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Have a nice day! Beautiful wheather here too, but I have to work.

Erik.
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Old 10-04-2016   #50
Dralowid
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I will get back to this in time but right now the weather is great and I'd far rather be out and about...with a camera.
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Old 10-26-2016   #51
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So, back to this.

The issue is that the second curtain follows the first down without any opening.

My first thought is that the second curtain tension is too high in relation to the first.

The implications are:

That I got the number of turns of tension very wrong when undoing the camera

or

That I put too many turns of ribbon around the rollers before sewing

I will delve deeper but what concerns me is that the camera does not always wind on and cock the shutter fully. Sometimes I need to wind it on till it stops and then pull out and turn the knob a quarter of a turn to full cock the shutter.
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Old 10-26-2016   #52
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Forgot to add...

After the shutter has fired the top or second curtain appears slighty 'loose' as if it is coming down too far(???)

This next bit I should have realised much sooner and is probably the key to the whole matter...

On further inspection, when wound on the camera does not come back to the speed setting it started at unless it is in the red group (slow speeds).

I will ponder further but it occurs tome that I might need to change the position of the second curtain on the top roller...maybe.
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Old 10-26-2016   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dralowid View Post
The issue is that the second curtain follows the first down without any opening.
That is my problem too, but only in the high speed group (when the tension is doubled). I found that the higher the tension of the roller, the more firmly the curtains "stick" together. There should be a slit between the two but there isn't.

Erik.
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Old 10-26-2016   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dralowid View Post
I will delve deeper but what concerns me is that the camera does not always wind on and cock the shutter fully. Sometimes I need to wind it on till it stops and then pull out and turn the knob a quarter of a turn to full cock the shutter.
Now, sounds like the ribbons are too short...
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Old 10-26-2016   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dralowid View Post
I will ponder further but it occurs tome that I might need to change the position of the second curtain on the top roller...maybe.
That is a dangerous operation as you can loose the synch of the gears. Only the second (top) curtain is connected to the gear train.

Erik.
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Old 10-26-2016   #56
Dralowid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway 61 View Post
Now, sounds like the ribbons are too short...

Or maybe wrapped round the rollers too many turns? my measurements were pretty accurate, I'd say within a couple of mm of the originals.
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Old 10-26-2016   #57
Erik van Straten
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dralowid View Post
Or maybe wrapped round the rollers too many turns?
Or the friction in the clutches is too low. You can bow the clutches a bit in the middle towards the ribbon. I did it with a screwdriver. Aki Asahi is too smooth. Worked on mine. This idea came from Brett.

Erik.
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Old 10-26-2016   #58
Dralowid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik van Straten View Post
Or the friction in the clutches is too low. You can bow the clutches a bit in the middle towards the ribbon. I did it with a screwdriver. Aki Asahi is too smooth. Worked on mine. This idea came from Brett.

Erik.
I don't quite understand what effect that would have. ?

If the clutch friction was increased wouldn't that encourage the first blind to pull the second blind down with it?

I need to open the shutter up again and see if I can understand this...I think I must be missing something.
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Old 10-26-2016   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dralowid View Post
If the clutch friction was increased wouldn't that encourage the first blind to pull the second blind down with it?
No, it works as a brake, it slows the upper curtain down. This is why the kind of ribbons is important. It should be a bit thicker and a bit rougher. Aki Asahi is too thin and too smooth.

What I did, was pressing with a screwdriver onto the clutch, a kind of throttling of the clutch. It worked, but not for the "sports group".

It seems that Zorki Kat found this. HU:Aki Asahi Ribbons for Kiev Shutters

Erik.

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Old 10-26-2016   #60
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[quote=Dralowid;2652475]I measured the Contax I ribbons at 100mm or 3 15/16" using the old ribbons as a guide and taking into account fraying etc. 100mm sounds quite 'German'.

I just measured old ribbons on my Contax I is approximately 4 1/4". I not sure if they are original or really works before (I currently get it on e-bay). I also check one Japanese web site (http://pangzhou.net/?p=2907) they used ribbons at 4.5"(115mm)

Also they have more information with pictures for Contax If (http://pangzhou.net/?p=2405)

P.S Thanks everybody for this topic it is really helpful. Thanks Michael for your pictures it helps a lot!
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Old 10-27-2016   #61
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Many thanks Deklari, a very interesting site.

Regarding ribbon length on http://pangzhou.net/?p=2907 picture 4 the ribbon is described as 115mm when fixed.

On http://pangzhou.net/?p=2405 in the last picture the ribbon is shown as being 100mm when fixed, the measurement I have used.

Of course, with the 'help' of Google translation I may have misunderstood the website!

Erik,

I understand clutches now! A damascene moment indeed!

Thanks

Michael
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Old 10-27-2016   #62
Sarcophilus Harrisii
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik van Straten View Post
Or the friction in the clutches is too low. You can bow the clutches a bit in the middle towards the ribbon. I did it with a screwdriver. Aki Asahi is too smooth. Worked on mine. This idea came from Brett.

Erik.
Hi Erik,
It's worked on the three Contax II models I have replaced ribbons in as well (Aki Asahi, also, for clarity). But I hasten to add, I was prompted to try it by the many helpful posts various RFF members have made on the subject over the last few years.

I think it does make sense, too, when one considers the way the mechanism is meant to function at the higher speeds. Putting aside the intermediate and slower speeds for a moment, the reason the Contax shutter works at all with just one set of ribbons, instead of the more usual pair per curtain, is because, at the higher speeds, the required slit width is pre-formed when the camera is wound. How much further the second curtain travels along the ribbons, relative to the first, is dependant on which speed is selected, of course. At the highest speed (1/1250 in the case of the II/III) the second curtain rests only marginally further than the leading edge of the first. At 1/500, as the camera is wound the second curtain travels a few millimetres further. And so on.

Now, the slit having been pre-formed, the beauty of the Contax design is that (when all is well, of course) the exposure will never taper across the gate. But in order for that to apply, the two curtains have to remain stationery, relative to each other, until the second curtain caps off the lower edge of the gate.

To me, it makes perfect sense, then, that, if the second curtain is capping off the exposure partway across the gate (or even completely), this is happening because it's running down the ribbons to meet the first curtain. If the correct fit exists between the ribbons and the clutches, there will be just enough interference to effectively, cause the first curtain, the second, and the ribbons to traverse the film gate as a single unit. Which is of course exactly what is meant to happen, at the fast speeds. Naturally there might also be other causes. Eg if the first curtain spring is broken or compromised it seems, at face value, to make sense that the second curtain would also gain on it. But we're assuming for the sake of this discussion that it's a Contax in basically serviceable order with nothing sinister making it malfunction, yes?

This is my understanding of it operation at the high speeds at least. But, like all of us, I am simply a Contax autodidact, and defer to the wisdom of members who have been fettling these cameras for far longer than myself!
Cheers,
Brett
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Old 10-27-2016   #63
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[quote=Dralowid;2661254]Many thanks Deklari, a very interesting site.

Regarding ribbon length on http://pangzhou.net/?p=2907 picture 4 the ribbon is described as 115mm when fixed.

On http://pangzhou.net/?p=2405 in the last picture the ribbon is shown as being 100mm when fixed, the measurement I have used.

I also see this, it is quite confusing. Also I have re-measured old ribbons om my Contax I, it is 100mm (not a 4 1/2")
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Old 10-27-2016   #64
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Deklari, Great, so the 100mm length has more votes than most!

Brett, the camera was working before the ribbons broke but it was quite hard to advance. I will investigate further and report. As I said at the beginning, with a broken camera and no one to repair it that I can afford there is nothing to lose!

I have another Contax I (dimple) which when fired makes a strange quiet whimpering noise and nothing moves... It appears to be largely untouched and will remain so 'till I understand what is going on with the other. Mind you, without slow speeds it may be easier to understand.
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Old 10-27-2016   #65
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Thank you, Brett, for this inspiring philosophy. At the moment I am quite happy with one Contax I that works perfectly (v4) and one that works good except for the "sports group" (v7). But I will experiment with my v5 when I'll have the time for it.

Yes Michael, I think so too that the camera is easier to understand without the slow speeds. I would love to have a Contax I with only high speeds.

Erik.
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Old 10-28-2016   #66
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I may have found the problem and if I have it is fundamental and remarkably obvious.

When I start tensioning the roller, the two pulleys to which the tapes are attached tighten up nicely but the central pulley to which the first blind is attached, remains slack.

Consequently all that is happening when I release the shutter is that the second blind is shunting the first blind down and no gap is appearing. I assume the spring in the roller is broken (or maybe I should admit to breaking it)?

IMG_2828 by dralowid, on Flickr

So my questions are:

1) Has anyone dismantled this roller and what does it look like inside?

2) If the spring is broken, I assume I will need another...do I have to buy a Kiev?!

IMG_2829 by dralowid, on Flickr

Looking around inside the camera it looks as if many have been in here before, not a screw untouched, not a surface unscratched

IMG_2827 by dralowid, on Flickr!
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Old 10-28-2016   #67
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Ah Ha! I don't know which camera this is from but it looks beyond me!

Screen Shot 2016-10-28 at 16.47.14 by dralowid, on Flickr
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Old 10-28-2016   #68
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Impressive, but what a nightmare to keep running! Zeiss sure didn't take the easy way out here ...
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Old 10-28-2016   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dralowid View Post
Ah Ha! I don't know which camera this is from but it looks beyond me!

Screen Shot 2016-10-28 at 16.47.14 by dralowid, on Flickr
I assume the spring in the roller is broken (or maybe I should admit to breaking it)?

Exact same thing happens to me today. Also I have same issue with Contax III in the past. I open the roller and central spring looks really bad. I try to fix it, but not luck.
Finally I have re-placed bottom roller from Kiev. My Contax III work fine after all. Now look like I have same issue with Contax I.
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Old 10-28-2016   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dralowid View Post
Ah Ha! I don't know which camera this is from but it looks beyond me!

Screen Shot 2016-10-28 at 16.47.14 by dralowid, on Flickr
This is the roller
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Old 10-28-2016   #71
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The Kiev roller fits into a Contax II, but I do not think it will fit into a Contax I. But when you can take out the small central spring of a Kiev roller there is a big chance that it will fit into a Contax I roller.

Erik.
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Old 10-28-2016   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik van Straten View Post
The Kiev roller fits into a Contax II, but I do not think it will fit into a Contax I. But when you can take out the small central spring of a Kiev roller there is a big chance that it will fit into a Contax I roller.

Erik.
I see.
I have removed bottom roller and ribbons. If i hold it and rotated the curtain a number of times around the roller I build up some tension. It tell me what central spring Ok. Looks like the central tension not good then I sett up every thing. If so, the pre-rolling ribbons around the roller will build good tension of top curtain but will not crate good tension for the central spring of the bottom curtain. It's correct? or I miss something
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Old 10-28-2016   #73
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The central spring of the roller has to be tensioned with a screwdriver at the side. There is a pin that locks the tension with a cap that is fixed by two screws. That is the tension of the lower (first) curtain. The straps have "independent" tension from the rollers at the side. These can be tensioned by turning the straps around them several times before they go trough the clutches and are fixed to the upper curtain.

Erik.
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Old 10-28-2016   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik van Straten View Post
The central spring of the roller has to be tensioned with a screwdriver at the side. There is a pin that locks the tension with a cap that is fixed by two screws. That is the tension of the lower (first) curtain. The straps have "independent" tension from the rollers at the side. These can be tensioned by turning the straps around them several times before they go trough the clutches and are fixed to the upper curtain.

Erik.
If turning with a screwdriver (at the side), each rotation will sett both (top and bottom) tension right? I guess next question will be how to determine right tension?
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Old 10-28-2016   #75
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In a Contax I there is only tension from the bottom, all the springs are in the bottom roller. The roller at the top has no springs.

The tension must be set at a minimum, but so that at all speeds the second curtain closes the gap completely (without hesitation).

Erik.
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Old 10-28-2016   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik van Straten View Post
In a Contax I there is only tension from the bottom, all the springs are in the bottom roller. The roller at the top has no springs.

The tension must be set at a minimum, but so that at all speeds the second curtain closes the gap completely (without hesitation).

Erik.
Thanks Erik, It is clear now. Will try more
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Old 10-28-2016   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deklari View Post
Thanks Erik, It is clear now. Will try more
After few try I check central spring. Spring is not broken but not look very accurate. Could that be a problem?
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Old 10-28-2016   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik van Straten View Post
The Kiev roller fits into a Contax II, but I do not think it will fit into a Contax I. But when you can take out the small central spring of a Kiev roller there is a big chance that it will fit into a Contax I roller.

Erik.
It will be rally challenging to re-place central spring. It probable require removing a site spring too. It is complicated process, most difficult part will be tighten one end of the spring to the central bar.
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Old 10-28-2016   #79
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[quote=Deklari;2661795]

I try to draw the picture of lower roller and spring
One end of the spring were connected to central bar through the hole. Other end connect to the roller. Spring has two layer (or direction) of twisting. One layer close to the central bar was surrounded by another layer of the same spring. I hope it help (if you understand my accent):-)
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Old 10-29-2016   #80
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Fascinating stuff, I notice the only pictures I have taken of late have been of the insides of cameras!

To recap and make sure I have understood all this I will write it down. Please correct me where I am wrong on any aspect and fill in the blanks as necessary.

I have not yet dismantled the roller on my camera, there seems little point till I find a replacement central spring. I will only lose bits or forget how it goes together. It would however be good to understand how this is done without making a mess of the 'outer' springs.

Here goes:

The bottom roller has three springs.
The two outer springs act to tension the pulleys to which the ribbons and second blind are attached. Their springs are anchored on the pulleys and the other ends are anchored to the shaft inside the body of the roller (??? or to a sleeve that is anchored to the shaft???). Deklari's excellent drawing helps (thanks!) but I would like to see a bigger detail of the central part

The central spring which controls the tension of the first blind is anchored to the shaft and the central part of the roller (? somehow, help!??).

In the normal course of events all three springs are tensioned by screwing up the shaft and capturing it in the small fitting bottom left of shutter (seen from back). The three springs will then tension at roughly the same rate but remain independent allowing an element of balance which will help with very slight differences in ribbon length etc.

((NOTE: The tensioning process is different on the dimple Contax I but more of this another day))

Without dismantling the whole roller (which I guess will mean cutting my new ribbons) I have to assume the centre spring has broken. The chances of it having come 'undone somehow' must be seen as zero and I guess any fiddling with the spring will only make it snap.

For a solution I have one or two ideas as to people who may have the relevant bits in a box and there is always a Kiev but I would far rather replace the whole roller if possible which means looking for the remains of a dead Contax I.

So if a anyone can offer a step by step of dismantling the roller it would be a great help.

In the meantime I will put the camera back together so as not to lose anything and turn my attention and sledge hammer to my next project!
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