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Old 03-16-2015   #81
Emile de Leon
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If I spent that much money on an M9 or even an ME...and a 6 month turnaround time for a built in inherent defect..that would not make me happy..
Leica should just update the sensor..with a good reliable one..
Or revamp the lower priced M line entirely..
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Old 03-16-2015   #82
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Originally Posted by Emile de Leon View Post
If I spent that much money on an M9 or even an ME...and a 6 month turnaround time for a built in inherent defect..that would not make me happy..
Leica should just update the sensor..with a good reliable one..
Or revamp the lower priced M line entirely..
My turnaround time was one week.
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Old 03-16-2015   #83
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My turnaround time was one week.
And what was the cost?
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Old 03-16-2015   #84
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Originally Posted by Kwesi View Post
My turnaround time was one week.
Mine was 4 months.

And this was over a year ago, before this corrosion news came out and 'everyone' started sending their's in.
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Old 03-16-2015   #85
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And what was the cost?
It was replaced under goodwill warranty.
This was before the announcement.
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Old 03-16-2015   #86
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Originally Posted by Huss View Post
Mine was 4 months.

And this was over a year ago, before this corrosion news came out and 'everyone' started sending their's in.
I think it's was just lucky timing on my part.
I'm sure the wait is longer now after the announcement.
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Old 03-16-2015   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icebear View Post
.........BUT is prone to corrosion by humidity once the coating gets scratched.
I don't understand how you could scratch the coating on a sensor.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emile de Leon View Post
...Leica should just update the sensor..with a good reliable one..
update the existing one, or replace it with a completely new and different sensor? .... easier said than done because Leica would have had the existing sensor made to function optimally with their lenses.
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Old 03-16-2015   #88
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I don't understand how you could scratch the coating on a sensor.

Just try wet cleaning without blowing off hard pieces of dust like mini-sandgrains first.
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Old 03-16-2015   #89
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Just try wet cleaning without blowing off hard pieces of dust like mini-sandgrains first.
I understand that, i've wet cleaned many a sensor, but if a sensor scratches so easily then you would have to say that it is an inferior product....no?
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Old 03-16-2015   #90
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My personal assumption is by September the current M-E will be replaced by the 24MP M-E Type 240, or what ever number they decide to package it up with. No more defective new products thanks to the CMOS.

The M9 support will continue until they run out of the KAF-18500, by then the only option will be to upgrade. It could happen anytime, just hope Leica would by the brick from us for at least a nominal sum when it comes.
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Old 03-17-2015   #91
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Originally Posted by fireblade View Post
I understand that, i've wet cleaned many a sensor, but if a sensor scratches so easily then you would have to say that it is an inferior product....no?
Not really. If you scratch your lens cleaning it would you call it an inferior product?
User error is a better word....
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Old 03-17-2015   #92
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Not really. If you scratch your lens cleaning it would you call it an inferior product?
User error is a better word....
I never touched my sensor. Not once. Ever. And I live in dry Southern California. And mine 'corroded'.
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Old 03-17-2015   #93
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As far as we know new KAF-18500 units (with original sensor cover-glass assemblies) are still available.

The scratching issue is tricky.

Might it be fair to speculate that a extremely light cover-glass scratches that ordinarily present no optical consequences (immediate or long-term) with other cameras eventually transform into larger, corrosion-enlarged defects on M9 KAF-18500 units?

The hypothesis is even the smallest disruption of the cover-glass coating accelerates the delamination of the water sensitive IR filter layer.

An alternate scenario would be the cover-glass protective coating (or coating application process) is simply defective and eventually humidity will penetrate the coating defect(s). This means even a cover glass with a perfect, scratch-free surface would eventually display optical artifacts.
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Old 03-17-2015   #94
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Might it be fair to speculate that a extremely light cover-glass scratches that ordinarily present no optical consequences (immediate or long-term) with other cameras eventually transform into larger, corrosion-enlarged defects on M9 KAF-18500 units?
That is exactly what is happening. It may even be that the smallest defect on a molecular level can be an entry port for moisture to start the corrosion process.
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Old 03-18-2015   #95
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Acc. to an article in the latest LFI magazine, Leica is NOT working on a new sensor. They are working on a new cover glass for the sensor and most likely also an improved coating. The issue is the cover glass type which blocks infrared better than the M8 sensor cover glass type BUT is prone to corrosion by humidity once the coating gets scratched.
hi, which LFI edition mentioned about it.
Could you share more with us the status?
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Old 03-18-2015   #96
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Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
That is exactly what is happening. It may even be that the smallest defect on a molecular level can be an entry port for moisture to start the corrosion process.

This is completely consistent with all the anecdotal evidence. Even in a clean room with all reasonable precautions to prevent any injury to the cover-glass coating, the coating could be compromised.

This us quite different than lens coatings as most lens coatings have been quite difficult to damage for a couple of decades.
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Old 03-18-2015   #97
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Neither my M9 nor Monochrom have ever been wet cleaned (or contact cleaned at all) since they first left Leica's hands. Neither sensor glass is scratched, but both have experienced corrosion. Certainly seems like something in the manufacturing process leaves some sensors vulnerable, while others seem impervious.
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Old 03-18-2015   #98
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Neither my M9 nor Monochrom have ever been wet cleaned (or contact cleaned at all) since they first left Leica's hands. Neither sensor glass is scratched, but both have experienced corrosion. Certainly seems like something in the manufacturing process leaves some sensors vulnerable, while others seem impervious.
Considering the process of manufacturing, assembling, and quality control,

its difficult to imagine that some sensors (if not all) are not cleaned at least once before the the M9 / M9-P / MM / ME are shipped to dealers.

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Old 03-18-2015   #99
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jaapv is just sharing information that was shared with him.

There is no reason to shoot the messenger because you don't like the message. jaapv has proven himself very Leica knowledgeable time and time again. While the poll is certainly too small to be accurate, 1% failure seems too small a failure rate to many as well.

That said, until Leica shares hard facts stating how many cameras out of what total production have developed sensor corrosion problems, we will not know what the accurate sensor corrosion figures are. The discussion shows a lot of frustration and impatience over how the problem solution has played out so far.

Stephen


Huss asked what is the source of the 1% figure.

How is that 'shooting the messenger'?

I'm sure a lot of people are wondering the same thing also.
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Old 03-29-2015   #100
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Is the coating issue being rectified ?
Any news?
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Old 03-30-2015   #101
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Is the coating issue being rectified ?
Any news?

I'd say no. Even the RF members with inside Leica info on this site have not addressed this question.

What we know is happening is they will replace the defective sensors with the same, apparently until the supply dries up. And/or offer a trade in allowance to an M.

I sold my M-E privately and bought an M demo (like new, refurbished, Leica warranty) as financially it was a much better deal than going the official Leica route. And I did not want to be w/o a camera for months again when/if it failed again.
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Old 03-30-2015   #102
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My MM has been up there since first week of January, it has 1500 actuations and was around 6 months old when it left. I have a buyer for it when it returns, he was told 6 weeks, hopefully he is happy to keep waiting. A check by the NZ importer on behalf of the buyer identified the corrosion. I have had enough of Leica now, the 6 months figure indicated on this thread will piss me off no end if that does end up being true and I lose my sale.
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Old 03-30-2015   #103
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I`ve noticed that a few are now appearing for sale at UK dealers having had their sensors recently replaced.
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Old 03-30-2015   #104
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Is the coating issue being rectified ?
Any news?
No news. And I predict this will take time - and some time more. It will most probably be solved in the end, though...
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Old 03-30-2015   #105
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I'd say no. Even the RF members with inside Leica info on this site have not addressed this question.

What we know is happening is they will replace the defective sensors with the same, apparently until the supply dries up. And/or offer a trade in allowance to an M.

I sold my M-E privately and bought an M demo (like new, refurbished, Leica warranty) as financially it was a much better deal than going the official Leica route. And I did not want to be w/o a camera for months again when/if it failed again.
sounds like forcing us and trading in for M240 is the only available option.
for many, M9/P M-E still a very good camera, i refuse to change, will be continue using it until it dies.
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Old 03-30-2015   #106
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As far as I am aware changing the sensor for free is an available option as well. Turnaround times will come down as the backlog is cleared and the supply chain smoothed out.

Of course it would be to Leica's benefit to take as many affected cameras out of the market as possible, pending a permanent solution, but I am not sure whether that is the optimum choice for all, or even most, users.
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Old 03-31-2015   #107
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As far as I am aware changing the sensor for free is an available option as well. Turnaround times will come down as the backlog is cleared and the supply chain smoothed out.
Yes, I mentioned that. My turn around time was 4 months, and that was before this issue/offer was made. So before the current 'rush'.

As I mentioned, I made the move to the M as quite frankly I do not much care for the alternatives. I tried to like the Sonys but just do not gel with them. The M may have unnecessary features (video) but that can be disabled and the rest of it still functions pretty much like the way the idea of a film M made digital should.

I do greatly miss the lighter weight of the M-E though.
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Old 04-02-2015   #108
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Is that the "rush" of the 1% defective?

At the moment Red Dot in London have 5 M9-P's, three of which have replaced sensors and 2 out of five Monochrom's having had sensor replacements. I know you can't prove anything from those figures...but there are a heck of a lot of cameras having sensor replacement
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Old 04-02-2015   #109
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At the moment Red Dot in London have 5 M9-P's, three of which have replaced sensors and 2 out of five Monochrom's having had sensor replacements. I know you can't prove anything from those figures...but there are a heck of a lot of cameras having sensor replacement
Yes, the 1% claim made by Jaap doesn't seem credible IMO. Interesting to see the prices being asked for those Monochroms at Red Dot. I guess the shop's hands are tied by the owners expectations but 4,5004,950 seems at least a thousand too high IMO if anyone expects to sell those cameras.
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Old 04-02-2015   #110
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I`ve been watching the Red Dot prices too ...and yes the prices seem over the top.
Still it`s interesting to see cameras appearing which have had new sensors and yet are being offered for sale.
I think that tells a different story.
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Old 04-02-2015   #111
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Still it`s interesting to see cameras appearing which have had new sensors and yet are being offered for sale.
I think that tells a different story.
I think it tells two stories: that the sensor replacement process isn't enough for some owners to keep faith in the camera going forward (I have some sympathy with this position being once bitten) and that a new Monochrom is expected to be announced this spring.
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Old 04-02-2015   #112
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I think it tells two stories: that the sensor replacement process isn't enough for some owners to keep faith in the camera going forward (I have some sympathy with this position being once bitten) and that a new Monochrom is expected to be announced this spring.
Agree. A really nice buyers market is shaping up for those who wish to shoot CCD-equipped M bodies as a result of the coincidence of the sensor issue and the new Monochrom introduction (those current dealer prices will come down I suspect).

I should be indignant about losing money on the accelerated depreciation of my M9 and Monochrom caused by the sensor problem. I guess the reason I'm not too upset is that the cameras still work beautifully with my Leica glass and give me the same pleasure in use as always. I do wish I'd been as economically well-timed as others who transitioned to the M240 prior to the sensor problem surfacing.
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Old 04-02-2015   #113
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that is why i still keeping my M8.2 which never had sensor issue.
while waiting my M9-P for 3 months until July
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Old 04-10-2015   #114
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Aw come on now Huss. That is not true at all.

In truth, there has been a bunch of talk around this issue over the past 5 months. In fact, I would have to say that, with the exception of a few brief periods, the crickets haven't even had a chance.
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Old 04-10-2015   #115
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Aw come on now Huss. That is not true at all.

In truth, there has been a bunch of talk around this issue over the past 5 months. In fact, I would have to say that, with the exception of a few brief periods, the crickets haven't even had a chance.
Sshh! Pioneer, I thought I deleted my comment before anyone had a chance to read it!
Cuz I thought better of it..

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Old 04-15-2015   #116
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Or are they just stringing us along until the outrage fades away?
Seems with the new CEO, they may just replace them with the same until the supply runs out, and then offer the exchange for the M240 + $$$

My skepticism is a result of the fact that they are still selling M-Es new with the known defect . They should pull those from the shelf until they have the real fix, but the fact they have not suggests that maybe they are not working on one. And the truth of the matter is the avg new Leica buyer nowadays may never realize there is a problem as they hardly ever use their cameras..

Nikon recently showed how it should be done. They pulled all the D750s off the shelf while they repaired the flare issue.

No progress report on the development of the new CCD sensor is a bad sign. I'm in the tech industry, and we give updates to our customers/clients when we work on solutions. But nothing from Leica.

I want to believe there is a real fix coming, but with this new management...
Since Leica's official position is that they will repair the sensor forever thats good enough for me since it will very likely be completely obsolete long before they run out of parts. They still have M8 sensors, and are still making M9 sensors.

Also, the sensors themselves are fine, its the cover glass that is the problem, and I have no doubt that Leica will soon come up with a fix to the cover glass, or just keep replacing. When Leica replaces the sensor in a defective camera I highly doubt that they throw it away. Rather, they replace the cover glass and then re-use it in another defective camera and repeat the cycle.

With all of this in mind, I ordered a brand-new M-E last night because I love the idea of the longer repair warranty and prefer the CCD look. I also recently sent my M Monochrom to Leica for cleaning (no delimitation issues) and plan to and enjoy use my MM and M-E side-by-side for many years to come.
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Old 04-15-2015   #117
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I have to agree with Kwesi on this one. If your sensor is good and you are still feeling anxiety regardless of how others around you are being treated, then maybe it is time to sell your M9 and move on. I know your closest Leica store will be happy to discuss a trade in and upgrade. It may be worth it just to ease your mind.

BTW, though it sounds as if everyone is having serious problems with the M9/MM sensor I don't think that is true. Neither my M9 (5 years old) or my MM (1 year old) are currently afflicted. As I have said a number of times, I am sure there are an awful lot of owners out there who have no problems.
My M Monochrom turns 2-years-old in June, so in January I sent it to Leica to have it CLA'd with instructions to check for sensor corrosion. I got it back 4-weeks-later with notes that there is no corrosion on the sensor, that the sensor was cleaned and aligned and the rangefinder calibrated.

I was delighted with my M Monochrom before I sent it in. I'm delighted with it since getting it back, and I have every confidence that Leica will do as they said they would do should problems arise in the future.

I like the M9 platform and actually bought a used M9 back in January 2014, but returned it due to spots on the sensor (now identified as corrosion). I had been thinking about buying another used M9 since then, but yesterday finally just bit the bullet and bought a new M-E for $4200, which is only a few dollars more than a mint M9-P goes for with warranty.

A used M240 was definitely an option, but I recently sold off my DSLR kit to simplify, so getting an M-E lets me use the same batteries as my M Monochrom and has the same menus and controls.

Now I have only one interchangeable lens system, two types of batteries (Leica M9 and Leica X) and in digital at least, only two control layouts. My M5 is the odd duck out, but hey, its an M5.
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Old 04-15-2015   #118
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My MM is over 30K and over 2 years old and no sensor issues.
I've only got about 15K in two years, but like yours, mine has been perfect. I will say that yours takes better pictures than mine. Probably that photographer accessory you mounted behind it.
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Old 04-15-2015   #119
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Agree. A really nice buyers market is shaping up for those who wish to shoot CCD-equipped M bodies as a result of the coincidence of the sensor issue and the new Monochrom introduction (those current dealer prices will come down I suspect).

I should be indignant about losing money on the accelerated depreciation of my M9 and Monochrom caused by the sensor problem. I guess the reason I'm not too upset is that the cameras still work beautifully with my Leica glass and give me the same pleasure in use as always. I do wish I'd been as economically well-timed as others who transitioned to the M240 prior to the sensor problem surfacing.
Yes, but what you lost on resale you will make up on price drops on the M240!

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Old 04-26-2015   #120
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hopefully Leica will get it fix with a real glass without corrosion issue in near future
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