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Old 03-13-2015   #41
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Old 03-13-2015   #42
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Is there any recent poll that counted the M9 (or digital FF Leica) owners? That would be a better relation to compare against.
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Old 03-13-2015   #43
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Is there any recent poll that counted the M9 (or digital FF Leica) owners? That would be a better relation to compare against.
we do not have that info. Even if we had a poll for that, it too would be limited to those M9 owners who voted.

Polls are admittedly inaccurate, yet they are still more useful than a guess.

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Old 03-13-2015   #44
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According to my sources the number of corroded sensors is low, in the order of 1%.

According to my sources, that is completely incorrect.
In fact, my sources say that your sources are putting out that mis-information in an attempt to prevent damage to the brand.


Think about it, a 1% failure rate is something that Canon/Nikon/Fuji etc experience. And I have not seen them put out an official statement saying they are working on trying to correct defective sensors.

I honestly think that most owners (note I did not say users) have no idea there is an issue as they bought it as a bauble, and if they use it, use it to post tiny images on their social media sites until they realize they're better off using their smart phones.

But I dunno, is it too much to actually address the topic at hand? It was not about has yours failed, but is a new CCD sensor being developed? We have heard nothing from Leica since the promise of replacing it with the same. And there now has been a management change with the emphasis on financially righting the ship.
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Old 03-13-2015   #45
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Originally Posted by ROOOO View Post
$4,200? How much did you pay for the new camera? I was asked to pay $3,500, valuing the M9 at $3,000.
The cost for me was $3750 for the Leica M-P 240 type. Current retail for the new MP is $7950.00.

There were different prices depending on model trade in and model requested:

Trade Leica M9 or M-E for Leica M (Typ 240): $3,500
Trade Leica M9 or M-E for Leica M-P (Typ 240): $3,750
Trade Leica M9-P for Leica M (Typ 240): $3,150
Trade Leica M9-P for Leica M-P (Typ 240): $3,450


I received my MP yesterday and quite pleased with the camera and will be out an about this weekend taking some photographs!
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Old 03-13-2015   #46
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Originally Posted by Huss View Post
...

But I dunno, is it too much to actually address the topic at hand? It was not about has yours failed, but is a new CCD sensor being developed? We have heard nothing from Leica since the promise of replacing it with the same. And there now has been a management change with the emphasis on financially righting the ship.
I think the short answer is no.
The goal has been to find a suitable replacement cover glass.
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Old 03-13-2015   #47
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Originally Posted by Huss View Post
According to my sources, that is completely incorrect.
In fact, my sources say that your sources are putting out that mis-information in an attempt to prevent damage to the brand.


Think about it, a 1% failure rate is something that Canon/Nikon/Fuji etc experience. And I have not seen them put out an official statement saying they are working on trying to correct defective sensors.

I honestly think that most owners (note I did not say users) have no idea there is an issue as they bought it as a bauble, and if they use it, use it to post tiny images on their social media sites until they realize they're better off using their smart phones.

But I dunno, is it too much to actually address the topic at hand? It was not about has yours failed, but is a new CCD sensor being developed? We have heard nothing from Leica since the promise of replacing it with the same. And there now has been a management change with the emphasis on financially righting the ship.
And wouldn't it be to Leica's advantage to develop a non-corroding cover glass (not a complete CCD, that would be silly) if it is as bad as you suggest instead of replacing them ad infinitum? I should think that would be the first thing a cost-conscious CEO would be pushing for.
As for the percentages - after the first spate the number reported on LUF has slowed down to a trickle - and we know from the cracked sensor issue that the the vast majority of affected owners will post on LUF.
I can think of a scenario that certain parties -not necessarily outside Leica- have an interest in exaggerating the issue.
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Old 03-13-2015   #48
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And wouldn't it be to Leica's advantage to develop a non-corroding cover glass (not a complete CCD, that would be silly) if it is as bad as you suggest instead of replacing them ad infinitum? I should think that would be the first thing a cost-conscious CEO would be pushing for.
As for the percentages - after the first spate the number reported on LUF has slowed down to a trickle - and we know from the cracked sensor issue that the the vast majority of affected owners will post on LUF.
I can think of a scenario that certain parties have an interest in exaggerating the issue.

How about revealing that 1% source?

That, I mentioned, is a failure rate equal to Nikon/Canon etc.

If that 1% was real, and I was Leica, I'd make sure everyone knew about it as dang, that would be a good failure rate. 99% of cameras are a-ok!
But, because it is bogus, your source (prove me wrong) is "confidential".

On RF's poll, 33 out of 80 respondents have had sensor issues. Sounds just a tad greater than 1%, does it not?


"I can think of a scenario that certain parties -not necessarily outside Leica- have an interest in exaggerating the issue"

I'm curious, what scenario would that be? Or is this another cryptic response to this real issue, like your 1% claim?
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Old 03-13-2015   #49
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Lord forbid that anyone visiting these wondrous internet forums (or forae for those who like that form better) should be confused with any facts. It just gets in the way of speculation and good old internet hysteria.
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Old 03-13-2015   #50
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See, that's how you end a comment like that!

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Old 03-13-2015   #51
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Originally Posted by Huss View Post
How about revealing that 1% source?

That, I mentioned, is a failure rate equal to Nikon/Canon etc.

If that 1% was real, and I was Leica, I'd make sure everyone knew about it as dang, that would be a good failure rate. 99% of cameras are a-ok!
But, because it is bogus, your source (prove me wrong) is "confidential".

On RF's poll, 33 out of 80 respondents have had sensor issues. Sounds just a tad greater than 1%, does it not?


"I can think of a scenario that certain parties -not necessarily outside Leica- have an interest in exaggerating the issue"

I'm curious, what scenario would that be? Or is this another cryptic response to this real issue, like your 1% claim?
So, just out of curiosity, what percent of 40,000 (plus or minus) is 80? Then, to complete that loop, what percent of 40,000 (plus or minus) is 33?

Even if you totally discount 50% of the Leica M9 market as jewelry buyers, that is still hardly a large percentage. So I still fail to see how the 1% reported is absolutely wrong!
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Old 03-13-2015   #52
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Originally Posted by Huss View Post
How about revealing that 1% source?

That, I mentioned, is a failure rate equal to Nikon/Canon etc.

If that 1% was real, and I was Leica, I'd make sure everyone knew about it as dang, that would be a good failure rate. 99% of cameras are a-ok!
But, because it is bogus, your source (prove me wrong) is "confidential".

On RF's poll, 33 out of 80 respondents have had sensor issues. Sounds just a tad greater than 1%, does it not?


"I can think of a scenario that certain parties -not necessarily outside Leica- have an interest in exaggerating the issue"

I'm curious, what scenario would that be? Or is this another cryptic response to this real issue, like your 1% claim?
This real internet issue. So you know for a fact that 33 cameras out of 40.000 have this problem and that adds up to errrr... what percentage?
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Old 03-13-2015   #53
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See, that's how you end a comment like that!

I most certainly am not trying to make light of your concerns. You are worried. You have a very expensive camera with equally expensive lenses and don't know where to go.

I am, however, trying to show that internet hystrionics oftentimes create mountains out of molehills.

As for explaining Leica's response if the actual numbers were truly so low, I don't think that is too tough. First, I do not want to make it sound as if I am "in the know." But there is something known as damage control. The issue at hand was quickly spreading to other web news sites.

In fact, if I were Leica, a small boutique camera company very dependent on their customer's perception of them, and I knew that the actual problem was really quite small, I would happily make the offer that was made. Now, on the other hand, if I thought the real problem might involve 25% of my product I would NOT make that offer.

Believe me, the people who lead these companies don't get there by doing stupid things. They do not rely on internet speculation. They want the real numbers. And they have people who can give them those numbers.

For myself, the moment this offer was made I relaxed. I have been there, I have sat in those meetings. I know exactly what happens to those who overstate the results and then cannot deliver.

I have no idea what happened between Blackstone and the recently outed CEO but I would be really surprised if it had anything to do with this situation.

Just my thoughts on the matter although I know that it will do little to stop the speculation.

I truly do wish you well Huss and I hope you do come up with a way to make yourself feel more relaxed about all this.
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Old 03-13-2015   #54
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The polling is a sampling. A method of prediction. So the 33 is out of a population of 80, not 40,000 (obviously). It is the same way that polls are taken after elections to determine results. A sampling of the population is a predictor of results.

'We', cameraquest, on RF did have a real poll, that is ongoing, and that is based on real numbers on a real population. Sure the only way one can be sure if it is accurate is by getting responses from every M9/ME/Monochrom owner out there, but that is not realistic or possible.
So the next best thing is to conduct a poll,which is what was done here.

And Pioneer, again, I appreciate your answer but to understand how this offer was made by Leica, one needs to also understand the current Leica owner. Again, I do not use the word user or photographer. Leica knows that most of these cameras barely see any use. So the defect, if it exists, may never appear to that owner as they do not use it , or know what to look for.
If there is a large population of defective sensors, but no-one knows about them, then the cost to Leica is minimized. Maybe Leica is onto something with their boutique stores and boutique pricing after all! That way , one could argue, working photographers who would notice this issue are kept away!
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Old 03-13-2015   #55
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Originally Posted by Huss View Post
How about revealing that 1% source?

That, I mentioned, is a failure rate equal to Nikon/Canon etc.

If that 1% was real, and I was Leica, I'd make sure everyone knew about it as dang, that would be a good failure rate. 99% of cameras are a-ok!
But, because it is bogus, your source (prove me wrong) is "confidential".

On RF's poll, 33 out of 80 respondents have had sensor issues. Sounds just a tad greater than 1%, does it not?


"I can think of a scenario that certain parties -not necessarily outside Leica- have an interest in exaggerating the issue"

I'm curious, what scenario would that be? Or is this another cryptic response to this real issue, like your 1% claim?
jaapv is just sharing information that was shared with him.

There is no reason to shoot the messenger because you don't like the message. jaapv has proven himself very Leica knowledgeable time and time again. While the poll is certainly too small to be accurate, 1% failure seems too small a failure rate to many as well.

That said, until Leica shares hard facts stating how many cameras out of what total production have developed sensor corrosion problems, we will not know what the accurate sensor corrosion figures are. The discussion shows a lot of frustration and impatience over how the problem solution has played out so far.

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Old 03-13-2015   #56
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I am certainly not a survey builder but a survey conducted among admitted rangefinder enthusiasts would hardly qualify as being representative.

Whatever, we all make our own decision in the end. In my own opinion it is not a good idea to base those decisions on information gleaned from internet forums or blogs. However, it is obvious that people make decisions to sell and buy things all the time based exactly on this criteria.

I will be keeping my own M9. I thought it made amazing photos when I first picked it up, and I still do. Leica intends to support it and is doing just that, as they said. I paid more money for this camera than I have paid for any other camera I own so I'm betting it will last until the "whiskers" finally catch up.

Of course, I have been wrong before.
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Old 03-13-2015   #57
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Originally Posted by Huss View Post

And Pioneer, again, I appreciate your answer but to understand how this offer was made by Leica, one needs to also understand the current Leica owner. Again, I do not use the word user or photographer. Leica knows that most of these cameras barely see any use.

Huss, with the statement "Leica knows that most of these cameras barely see any use" can you provide a source for your information.

I know quite a few M9, MM, and M owners and none of them keep them on the shelf and admire them.

My experience with people who buy Leica Cameras, is that they use them, so I believe your point is exaggerated. I certainly believe the problem with sensors is larger than 1% but do not buy into the belief that Leica Corporation has a hidden agenda and the majority of there consumers do not know or care because they don't use the product.

My suggestion would be that you sell or upgrade and move on.

Life is too short ......
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Old 03-13-2015   #58
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Yeah. I love the results of my M-E, which is why I am so anxious/impatient etc wanting to find out what is going on.

deep breath.
ommmmmmm.
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Old 03-13-2015   #59
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Ahh Leica ... the smoke and mirrors company.

'Smoke' ... because they constantly seem to be the subject of rumours about their survival or otherwise.

'Mirrors' ... well, because rangefinders are based around mirrors and prisms for focusing.

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Old 03-13-2015   #60
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Ahh Leica ... the smoke and mirrors company.

'Smoke' ... because they constantly seem to be the subject of rumours about their survival or otherwise.

'Mirrors' ... well, because rangefinders are based around mirrors and prisms for focusing.

That's great!

And most of the smoke is created by Leica owners themselves. None of them can believe that cameras that are this much fun are still being manufactured.

Most of the rest of the market really doesn't care. None of them have used a Kodak sensor in decades.

Edit - Warning! Warning! This post contains agregious internet hyperbole that cannot be supported by any fact, or half-facts, or even my uncle's fax.
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Old 03-13-2015   #61
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Had my M9 purchased used for a little over a year. I bought it for travel and it survived a thousand miles on a motorcycle in Laos and 90 days of living in my backpack through Europe last fall.

I sent it to Leica, NJ, in early December for a cleaning. It came back six weeks later with a 1 year warranty and a new, unexpected sensor. I really do not have any complaints about how Leica is handling this problem. I thought about the upgrade but do not use the camera enough to justify another $3700.

It will be going with me for a six month motorcycle trip from the US to Tierra del Fuego. If it gets stolen or quits working, well that is what insurance is for and I enjoyed it while I had it.

Come on people, life is too damn short to sweat the small stuff.
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Old 03-14-2015   #62
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The polling is a sampling. A method of prediction. So the 33 is out of a population of 80, not 40,000 (obviously). It is the same way that polls are taken after elections to determine results. A sampling of the population is a predictor of results.
A poll of participants that attracts users with a problem, filled in by those that can be bothered to answer, on a forum not aimed specifically at Leica users, but rangefinder enthusiasts with 80 participants out of 40.000.....

I have a poll that is just as valid statistically:
The failure rate is exactly 50% because my Monochrom had the problem and my M9 not...
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Old 03-14-2015   #63
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That said, until Leica shares hard facts stating how many cameras out of what total production have developed sensor corrosion problems, we will not know what the accurate sensor corrosion figures are. The discussion shows a lot of frustration and impatience over how the problem solution has played out so far.

Stephen
...and that is the real problem.

Despite all the interesting diversions over what may constitute a meaningful sample or the suggestion by some that Leica owners have a propensity to whinge more than other users ....the issue refuses to go away.

The fact that they seem unable to close it down is in itself damaging.

They needed to be transparent from the start and they unfortunately failed to be so.
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Old 03-14-2015   #64
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The polling is a sampling. A method of prediction. So the 33 is out of a population of 80, not 40,000 (obviously). It is the same way that polls are taken after elections to determine results.
The obvious differences are that 1. you can safely assume that those that bothered to show up for the election actually voted, 2. a randomized number of voters is actively asked by an interviewer to participate in the exit polls (counting refusals as well) and 3. statisticians have compiled correction tables over the course of dozens of polls to correct for the (quite considerable) difference between actual votes and what people claim to have voted on the exit poll (and the party specific participation bias).
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Old 03-14-2015   #65
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...and that is the real problem.

Despite all the interesting diversions over what may constitute a meaningful sample or the suggestion by some that Leica owners have a propensity to whinge more than other users ....the issue refuses to go away.

The fact that they seem unable to close it down is in itself damaging.

They needed to be transparent from the start and they unfortunately failed to be so.
Well, the guaranty of replacements, the offer of upgrade and the quest for a new cover glass is a closure in itself.
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Old 03-14-2015   #66
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Every time a new camera comes out from the big two and there are issues which there have been from time to time you should read that hate on forums that are dedicated to either Canon or Nikon. No different.

Again, my MM is well used and has 30K + and is over two years old no issues. A great tool for the way I see and work. If a problem shows up I will send it in. I have already had several emails to Leica how BTW was very up front and responsive.
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Old 03-14-2015   #67
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...The discussion shows a lot of frustration and impatience over how the problem solution has played out so far.

Stephen
Huss is the only actual owner expressing dissatisfaction in this thread.
And he isn't even an affected owner.

Nothing wrong with that - just a reality check
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Old 03-14-2015   #68
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Leica USA replaced the sensor in my M9 this past December. Camera was out of my hands just over a month. Good service in my view. My MM sensor also appears to be experiencing corrosion, but much less severe than that of the M9. I will try to wait until sensors with the new cover glass are available before sending it in. I don't think any MM or M9 shooter experiencing sensor corrosion is happy with the situation, but I for one believe Leica is acting responsibly.

It would be hard for me to imagine Leica not working diligently to source replacement sensors that do not have the corrosion issue. Since there are current bodies either still in production or at least in unsold inventory that use the problematic sensor - failure to find a permanent fix would seem to push the issue and bad PR out for a decade or more.
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Old 03-14-2015   #69
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Huss is the only actual owner expressing dissatisfaction in this thread.
And he isn't even an affected owner.

Nothing wrong with that - just a reality check

Happened to me twice..
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Old 03-14-2015   #70
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Leica USA replaced the sensor in my M9 this past December. Camera was out of my hands just over a month. Good service in my view. My MM sensor also appears to be experiencing corrosion, but much less severe than that of the M9. I will try to wait until sensors with the new cover glass are available before sending it in. I don't think any MM or M9 shooter experiencing sensor corrosion is happy with the situation, but I for one believe Leica is acting responsibly.

It would be hard for me to imagine Leica not working diligently to source replacement sensors that do not have the corrosion issue. Since there are current bodies either still in production or at least in unsold inventory that use the problematic sensor - failure to find a permanent fix would seem to push the issue and bad PR out for a decade or more.
Another 2 out of 2 failure rate..

Glad they serviced yours so quickly.

But again, this thread is not about 'has your failed', but what is the news/likelihood/updates on Leica's permanent fix to this problem. Which is not the same as replacing it with a like sensor.


Anyway, I just picked up an M240 to see how I can work with it. If everything goes well, then my M-E will be sold. My brief usage of the two has shown the CCD sensor has greater highlight recovery ability than the CMOS.

I would have loved to move on from Leica, but the reality is no-one offers what they offer. Stunning lenses that work PERFECTLY on an OVF RF body.
I tried the Sony A7ii, and while this is subjective, I did not enjoy the user experience at all. Nor the fact that - contrary to the claim of some popular blogger$ - my lenses do not work well with the system. But this is not a knock on Sony for that, as why would they care to cater to other mfgs' lenses?

If anyone is privy on knowing what is happening with Leica and the progress of the CCD sensor glass fix, I'd love to know. I have a feeling that something may be announced after the new CEO takes over.
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Old 03-14-2015   #71
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Another 2 out of 2 failure rate..

Glad they serviced yours so quickly.

But again, this thread is not about 'has your failed', but what is the news/likelihood/updates on Leica's permanent fix to this problem. Which is not the same as replacing it with a like sensor.


Anyway, I just picked up an M240 to see how I can work with it. If everything goes well, then my M-E will be sold. My brief usage of the two has shown the CCD sensor has greater highlight recovery ability than the CMOS.

I would have loved to move on from Leica, but the reality is no-one offers what they offer. Stunning lenses that work PERFECTLY on an OVF RF body.
I tried the Sony A7ii, and while this is subjective, I did not enjoy the user experience at all. Nor the fact that - contrary to the claim of some popular blogger$ - my lenses do not work well with the system. But this is not a knock on Sony for that, as why would they care to cater to other mfgs' lenses?

If anyone is privy on knowing what is happening with Leica and the progress of the CCD sensor glass fix, I'd love to know. I have a feeling that something may be announced after the new CEO takes over.
I stand corrected Huss,
Glad to hear you are going to give the M240 a try. I did the same and haven't looked back.
By the way, have you had a chance to read the article "THE GREAT DEBATE: CCD VS. CMOS" on reddotforum? Its an interesting read in 3 parts

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Old 03-15-2015   #72
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Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
And wouldn't it be to Leica's advantage to develop a non-corroding cover glass (not a complete CCD, that would be silly) if it is as bad as you suggest instead of replacing them ad infinitum? I should think that would be the first thing a cost-conscious CEO would be pushing for.
Sadly in the corporate world of today there is a different logic in play. CEO's don't look upon it as a lifetime career, merely a stepping stone. Especially when it's of a tiny corp like Leica. A year or two of increasing profits garners them the rep of being a turnaround specialist and leads to bigger and better positions. So their emphasis is on augmenting the short-term bottom line.

R&D labor costs are significantly more per hour than production or service labor. So replacing faulty sensors with identical but as-yet-unblemished ones is cheaper than developing a new cover glass. Especially for a sensor fitted to a discontinued product. If this issue threaatened to stall sales of current product, I believe Leica's response would be different.
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Old 03-15-2015   #73
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Originally Posted by Ben Z View Post
R&D labor costs are significantly more per hour than production or service labor. So replacing faulty sensors with identical but as-yet-unblemished ones is cheaper than developing a new cover glass. Especially for a sensor fitted to a discontinued product.
Especially when it concerns a discontinued third party sensor for a discontinued product - there are multiple stages of cost increase involved there, it is not anything where the inhouse Leica R&D can do anything short of getting into sensor packaging from scratch.
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Old 03-15-2015   #74
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my M9-P in serious fungus and corrosion issue. it is sick.
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Old 03-15-2015   #75
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I'll bet over the next few years..that defect %..goes way way up..if they don't outright..discontinue the ME etc..and run as fast as they can...from the problems..
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Old 03-16-2015   #76
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Acc. to an article in the latest LFI magazine, Leica is NOT working on a new sensor. They are working on a new cover glass for the sensor and most likely also an improved coating. The issue is the cover glass type which blocks infrared better than the M8 sensor cover glass type BUT is prone to corrosion by humidity once the coating gets scratched.
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Old 03-16-2015   #77
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Originally Posted by Pioneer View Post
I am certainly not a survey builder but a survey conducted among admitted rangefinder enthusiasts would hardly qualify as being representative.
Well, it's a hell of a lot more representative than passing around rumours about 1%. And I don't see why or how the fact that the poll is taken among "enthusiasts" affects its outcome. It is safe to say that the same rate of failure hits enthusiasts as any other group of buyers, unless you know something about distribution that i don't.

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Whatever, we all make our own decision in the end. In my own opinion it is not a good idea to base those decisions on information gleaned from internet forums or blogs. However, it is obvious that people make decisions to sell and buy things all the time based exactly on this criteria.
It seems to me reading this thread that a lot of people are sitting around with a camera that costs THOUSANDS that isn't being repaired. That is the basis of their feelings . . . and maybe of their decision.

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I will be keeping my own M9. I thought it made amazing photos when I first picked it up, and I still do. Leica intends to support it and is doing just that, as they said. I paid more money for this camera than I have paid for any other camera I own so I'm betting it will last until the "whiskers" finally catch up.

Of course, I have been wrong before.
Well you're the guy who has been fortunate with his camera, talking to others who have been less fortunate. Present company excluded. I am only observing . . .
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Old 03-16-2015   #78
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Originally Posted by traveler_101 View Post
Well, it's a hell of a lot more representative than passing around rumours about 1%. And I don't see why or how the fact that the poll is taken among "enthusiasts" affects its outcome. It is safe to say that the same rate of failure hits enthusiasts as any other group of buyers, unless you know something about distribution that i don't.


It seems to me reading this thread that a lot of people are sitting around with a camera that costs THOUSANDS that isn't being repaired. That is the basis of their feelings . . . and maybe of their decision.



Well you're the guy who has been fortunate with his camera, talking to others who have been less fortunate. Present company excluded. I am only observing . . .
Thanks for the observations Traveler. It would appear that you are really the lucky one as you have no horse in this race, good or bad.
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Old 03-16-2015   #79
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Originally Posted by icebear View Post
Acc. to an article in the latest LFI magazine, Leica is NOT working on a new sensor. They are woking on a new cover glass for the sensor and most likely also an improved coating. The issue is the cover glass type which blocks infrared better than the M8 sensor cover glass type BUT is prone to corrosion by humidity once the coating gets scratched.
This clarification is rather important. A significant amount of confusion when discussing any digital camera system could be avoided if the incomplete descriptor sensor was avoided. A camera's technical IQ is depends on a combination of factors the individual components of the sensor assembly, the analog ISO amplification engineering and the characteristics of the analog-to-digital converter. This rather different than film where the chemical composition and physical properties (emulsion and emulsion layers) are intertwined.

In the case of the M9 family, it might be possible to remove the cover glass assembly, assure the color-filter array is not damaged, and confirm the CCD assembly and associated electronics operates within specification. Then a redesigned cover-glass/filter could be installed.

Whether or not this process is less expensive than manufacturing a completely new sensor system is unknown. But this sort of replacement would be a fair and complete solution to rectify the defective cover-glass problem.
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Old 03-16-2015   #80
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Thanks for the observations Traveler. It would appear that you are really the lucky one as you have no horse in this race, good or bad.
Well you are a hell of a nice guy; wish I didn't have to disagree with you on this stuff.
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