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View Poll Results: What is the Overall Best Value in Digital Rangefinder Cameras?
Epson RD1 family - all models 60 18.29%
Leica M8 / 8u 69 21.04%
Leica 8.2 22 6.71%
Leica M9 68 20.73%
Leica M9-P 11 3.35%
Leica MM 18 5.49%
Leica ME 20 6.10%
Leica M240 aka M aka M10 43 13.11%
Leica M-P 11 3.35%
Leica M60 6 1.83%
Voters: 328. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-12-2015   #41
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Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
Your 50 will be a 50 and your 21 will be a 21, regardless of the sensor size. No way can you change the focal length of a lens.
Yeah yeah you know what I meant. Field of View.
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Old 01-12-2015   #42
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In this case angle of view You have not defined a subject distance.

As for DOF, a 1.33 sensor like the M8 will not make a huge difference. The change in DOF will be less than one stop, which one will be hard put to see in print and if you change your position to equalize the field of view difference (which will change the perspective, though) it will be even less noticeable. A jittery finger on one of the contrast-driven tools in PS or LR will negate it completely.
An APS-C like the RD1 will have a bit more pronounced deeper DOF though, but still well within the bounds of creativity.
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Old 01-12-2015   #43
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This question depends entirely on one's definition of value.

Right now a Leica-warrantied "pre owned" for <$5000 would fit my definition...it is the "latest" generation with the best balance of price and repair-cost risk.

An M8 would be a distant second. It is the oldest and least-expensive Leica M digital, and thus will have the lowest depreciation. Downside is if anything goes wrong, even if the parts are still available it is likely the cost would be disproportionate to the camera's worth. That said, a complete write-off of an M8 would be about what that used M240 will depreciate in the next year or two.

At this point I would not consider any of the M9-based cameras good values. Right now there is no permanent solution to the sensor corrosion problem, which appears both inevitable and ubiquitous. Even if Leica continues to replace them free ad infinitum, it would be a real PITA if one had to keep sending it back again and again and be without it for a month or three. If the M9 derivatives were selling at fire-sale prices (<$2000) I would say it might be worth the risk to bet on long-shot odds Leica will re-source new sensors that won't delaminate. I'm really glad I'm rid of my M9, much as I liked it (and never had sensor problems with it).
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Old 01-12-2015   #44
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In this case angle of view You have not defined a subject distance.
Come on now, let's not be pedantic.

The simple fact is I don't care to deal with a crop sensor. I have a set of lenses that work on my Nikon SP, Leica M6, and Leica M9.

It seems that some people can't understand the idea of personal preference. I will never buy a crop sensor digital camera for photography. It's a pointless endeavor in my eyes. If I were to ever buy a digital medium format camera I would want a 6x7 sensor to go with my 6x7 lenses, not some weird crop. That's just my preference.
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Old 01-12-2015   #45
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Nobody is denying your right to have a preference. Let's face it, if it were not so we would all be using cell-phones.
However, my - and anybody's preference is not an universal truth.
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Old 01-12-2015   #46
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This question depends entirely on one's definition of value.

Right now a Leica-warrantied "pre owned" for <$5000 would fit my definition...it is the "latest" generation with the best balance of price and repair-cost risk.

An M8 would be a distant second. It is the oldest and least-expensive Leica M digital, and thus will have the lowest depreciation. Downside is if anything goes wrong, even if the parts are still available it is likely the cost would be disproportionate to the camera's worth. That said, a complete write-off of an M8 would be about what that used M240 will depreciate in the next year or two.

At this point I would not consider any of the M9-based cameras good values. Right now there is no permanent solution to the sensor corrosion problem, which appears both inevitable and ubiquitous. Even if Leica continues to replace them free ad infinitum, it would be a real PITA if one had to keep sending it back again and again and be without it for a month or three. If the M9 derivatives were selling at fire-sale prices (<$2000) I would say it might be worth the risk to bet on long-shot odds Leica will re-source new sensors that won't delaminate. I'm really glad I'm rid of my M9, much as I liked it (and never had sensor problems with it).
I am sure it won't be another sensor - just another IR filter.
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Old 01-12-2015   #47
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I voted for the M9. To me, the 'crop' rangefinders lose a lot of value because my 35mm lens(es) aren't 35mm anymore and I must go get a 23mm or 26mm lens (an impossible task in m-mount as far as I know).

That said, if you don't care about focal length and just want a RF, the Epson wins hands down. Can be had for a steal.
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Old 01-12-2015   #48
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I am sure it won't be another sensor - just another IR filter.
That's what I would figure too. No reason to throw the baby out with the bath water. In my mind it made sense to call it a "new sensor" because it comes from the manufacturer as a pre-assembled unit. I can see where that was confusing.
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Old 01-12-2015   #49
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To me, none of them are a great value... unless you absolutely want a digital camera with a mechanical rangefinder. M9 issues aside...I would say M9 based on usefulness, price, and convenience. Best value doesn't mean cheapest.
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Old 01-12-2015   #50
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I voted for the M9. To me, the 'crop' rangefinders lose a lot of value because my 35mm lens(es) aren't 35mm anymore and I must go get a 23mm or 26mm lens (an impossible task in m-mount as far as I know).

That said, if you don't care about focal length and just want a RF, the Epson wins hands down. Can be had for a steal.
Cropped sensors bothered me too, until I shot the RD1 and 8.2. Real world I found it was something I quickly adjusted to.
Sometimes it was to my advantage, like turning a 50/1.4 into a fast portrait lens.

Once you become used to the crop factor, which is likely to take no more than a couple of days at most, its no problem at all.

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Old 01-12-2015   #51
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I use the M8 with 50mm lenses as portrait lenses, and I use it with a 17mm lens as a great 22mm lens without vignetting or color problems. It is not a problem at all.
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Old 01-12-2015   #52
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Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
if you change your position to equalize the field of view difference (which will change the perspective, though) it will be even less noticeable..
So you're saying no need for any different focal length in lenses at all? 50mm for everyone. Just change your position if you want to see more or less in the frame. I guess that is well within the "bounds of creativity."

But, in seriousness I would say that the vast majority of my wide angle shooting has not afforded me a lot of leeway in "changing my position." If I have a 15mm lens on my FF camera, I have it there for an actual reason. If I wanted a 20mm lens on my FF camera I would put it on my camera. For me it makes a difference that is important to me. To say that there is "no noticeable difference" is frankly not very friendly.
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Old 01-12-2015   #53
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Cropped sensors bothered me too, until I shot the RD1 and 8.2. Real world I found it was something I quickly adjusted to.
Sometimes it was to my advantage, like turning a 50/1.4 into a fast portrait lens.

Once you become used to the crop factor, which is likely to take no more than a couple of days at most, its no problem at all.

Stephen
It's more about bag and kit space for me. I used cropped sensors for years when I started out (Canon DSLRs) and it was great. However, once I got into film cameras as well and started getting lenses, it really bothered me (and my wallet!) that I needed to buy two parallel lens catalogs to work at the same distances.

I should amend my previous answer to read that if you don't mind lenses changing focal length, crop is great and cheap. If you do mind, then a crop sensor RF won't be good value.
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Old 01-12-2015   #54
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It's more about bag and kit space for me. I used cropped sensors for years when I started out (Canon DSLRs) and it was great. However, once I got into film cameras as well and started getting lenses, it really bothered me (and my wallet!) that I needed to buy two parallel lens catalogs to work at the same distances.

I should amend my previous answer to read that if you don't mind lenses changing focal length, crop is great and cheap. If you do mind, then a crop sensor RF won't be good value.

I think of it ths way.
One only needs to add one lens on the wide end to your existing kit.

For example:
If 21mm is your widest with FF add a 15mm to become 21-ish with a aps-c or aps-h size sensor.

Considering traditional focal lengths for 35mm rangefinder photography , the crop factor just has us skipping down one FL to get to the FOV you might have with full frame.
How big is a single RF lens really?

Just choose your wides and skip down one length.
12,15/18,21,24,28,35,50,75,90,135

With the above way of thinking. Only a 12mm shooter would be left without that lens. Which does not perfrom well on the FF bodies anyway M9/ME/MM/M240

I'm not advocating away from FF. I just don't see it as a big deal at all to have a crop with a rangefinder (or Mirrorless EVF cameras).

I want Full Frame with DSLR bodies where smaller sensor means smaller mirror and viewfinder. Here crop suck and FF is huge!
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Old 01-12-2015   #55
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Once you become used to the crop factor, which is likely to take no more than a couple of days at most, its no problem at all.

Stephen
The only reason the M8's crop didn't bother me was because Voitlander made the 15mm that gave me back the FOV of a 21mm which is one of my most-used lenses on full frame, without having to spend thousands on a WATE just to get the one focal length I wanted.
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Old 01-12-2015   #56
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A cropped sensor represents no value at all, in my opinion.
here are some recent shots in Nepal, not by me, from that "no value" camera, the M8.
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/top.../1112#12794251

In my opinion, the M8 is the most underrated camera today. The thinnest filter stack ever over the sensor, and very modest 1.3x crop, I have seen so many jaw dropping images from that machine.....

No, I don't own one, and like you I covet FF, but I would never discount the M8 myself. At 1500 or so, it is a fantastic value, if results trump specs on paper, or romantic thoughts of what was meant to be.
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Old 01-12-2015   #57
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What Godfrey said in post #11, so long as we're not taking "value" to mean price.
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Old 01-12-2015   #58
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here are some recent shots in Nepal, not by me, from that "no value" camera, the M8.
I'm not sure why some can't separate "value" from "results."

In fact the whole idea to start with is rather asinine. If we want to talk about results, any $200 point and shoot can do 95% of what any Leica M(x) can do in decent light. Let's not kid ourselves here. The soccer mom with a Nikon D3200 has more technical image quality and value in her camera than an M8 or M9, if all we compare things to are the "results," given a constant photographer.

I am one of those that values the experience as much as the results, and sometimes those two things do coincide. To be frank, I have hardly shot my M9. I've shot more with my M6, but have shot 10x more with my Nikon SP. And I prefer shooting 4x5 to any 35mm camera in many situations. What has more value? What I enjoy has more value.

Frankly I should never have even bothered, because it's clear I hit a nerve and no one is getting anything out of this conversation. I'm going to shut up and go make images. Well not right now it's 12am but you know what I mean.
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Old 01-13-2015   #59
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I think of it ths way.
One only needs to add one lens on the wide end to your existing kit.

For example:
If 21mm is your widest with FF add a 15mm to become 21-ish with a aps-c or aps-h size sensor.

Considering traditional focal lengths for 35mm rangefinder photography , the crop factor just has us skipping down one FL to get to the FOV you might have with full frame.
How big is a single RF lens really?

Just choose your wides and skip down one length.
12,15/18,21,24,28,35,50,75,90,135

With the above way of thinking. Only a 12mm shooter would be left without that lens. Which does not perfrom well on the FF bodies anyway M9/ME/MM/M240

I'm not advocating away from FF. I just don't see it as a big deal at all to have a crop with a rangefinder (or Mirrorless EVF cameras).

I want Full Frame with DSLR bodies where smaller sensor means smaller mirror and viewfinder. Here crop suck and FF is huge!
I actually have a 9,5 mm 1.8 lens

Here it is on the M8:


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Old 01-13-2015   #60
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... well it looks like Epson got it right with the very first Digital RF ever made, even all these years later Leica are struggling to make one we think is of equal value ... imagine if Cosina and Epson were to take what we've learned in the meantime and add a modern sensor in a new version of the RD1
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Old 01-13-2015   #61
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... well it looks like Epson got it right with the very first Digital RF ever made, even all these years later Leica are struggling to make one we think is of equal value ... imagine if Cosina and Epson were to take what we've learned in the meantime and add a modern sensor in a new version of the RD1
Nah! We RFFers are just a bunch of old fogies who like old cameras
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Old 01-13-2015   #62
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Like I said earlier the best overall value is the equipment that matches your vision and the way you work.
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Old 01-13-2015   #63
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Like I said earlier the best overall value is the equipment that matches your vision and the way you work.
Agreed! For me that's the M240.
your work with the Monochrom always strikes a chord within me.
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Old 01-13-2015   #64
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Nah! We RFFers are just a bunch of old fogies who like old cameras
... it's its fogieness that makes the RD1 such a marvel
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Old 01-13-2015   #65
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lots of votes as of this post and my measley 6mp rd1 is running even with the m9. guess i made a decent choice...had enough money left over to buy a 21 elmarit, 75 summarit, the tiny leica type 112 and a few nice dinners. love my rd1. i find myself reaching for it more and more and leaving the excellent rx1 behind. more to photography than mp's, no?
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Old 01-13-2015   #66
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I'm not sure why some can't separate "value" from "results."
or see the connection

Quote:
In fact the whole idea to start with is rather asinine. If we want to talk about results, any $200 point and shoot can do 95% of what any Leica M(x) can do in decent light. Let's not kid ourselves here. The soccer mom with a Nikon D3200 has more technical image quality and value in her camera than an M8 or M9, if all we compare things to are the "results," given a constant photographer.
Right. You don't really like digital RFs at all. Oh well.
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Old 01-13-2015   #67
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Way to totally misunderstand and misrepresent everything I said. Reading comprehension, try it.
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Old 01-13-2015   #68
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Way to totally misunderstand and misrepresent everything I said. Reading comprehension, try it.
well, we know you have no respect for the M8, and:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corran View Post
To be frank, I have hardly shot my M9.
So...there is some other digi rangefinder you like enough to use?

hey, you are not the only one, lot's of people don't like them LOL
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Old 01-13-2015   #69
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Apparently you still don't get it. Whatever...
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Old 01-13-2015   #70
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If you two wish to get a room out of view... go for it
Otherwise, please quit arguing within the thread. Thanks
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Old 01-17-2015   #71
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The M8 remains a great camera. I make use of the 33% crop factor when I use side by side the M8 and M9 on trips. This doubles for me the choices of focal lengths with half the number of lenses.
Exactly as raid Says....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Austerby View Post
I think the M8 is best value: it has it's limitations, particularly around ISO, but delivers wonderful files and image quality, especially in monochrome. It's so good that I've not found its successors to offer substantive improvements for me so I've stuck with it.

On a simple price/image capability measure it has to provide the best ratio, in my opinion at least.
Only the limitation in M8 the crop factor sucks sometimes....
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Old 03-04-2015   #72
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Despite the plummeting price of the M240, that can't be the right answer. I'll go with the M9 ...
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Old 03-26-2015   #73
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Best value? The one that gets you the images you want so you stop thinking about the camera and equipment and take more photos.

I experienced this when I stopped messing around with various "poor man's Leica" fixed lens RFs and smallish SLRs and just got an M4-P. Would have spent less money buying the right tool to start with particularly if I figured in the time spent researching "alternatives".

Similar experience with the M9. it just works and I love the quality of the images out of the camera, which seem curiously absent from this discussion. Don't need a lot of post to get me where I want to be. Nothing to learn. Bought used no manual, put on lens, started shooting. First few times my thumb went for the rewind lever.

Less time dicking around in Lightroom = more value to me.
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Old 03-26-2015   #74
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There are no value digital RF cameras. M8 is crop sensor and may develop the screen problem. Leica will offer an upgrade for a price you will not want to pay.

M9 has sensor corrosion which appears mostly in hi humidity conditions. So far they are willing to repair free. Future ??

M is expensive and best long term solution.

Epson may or may not be good and repair is a big question.

ME is same as M9

You need to pay a lot of $ to get in the game. Digital Leicas all will have longish term repairability/parts problems. Their solution will be for you to pay for an upgrade.

Budget digital is Nikon D3300, D5500, D7200, D610. All these will take very good photos with much less investment but are not RF cameras.

There is no reason to buy Leica unless you already have lenses and they are modern and coded so they focus properly. Old lenses may need to be recalibrate.
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Old 03-26-2015   #75
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There is no reason to buy Leica unless you already have lenses and they are modern and coded so they focus properly.
What works for you is a much more important consideration than owning some lenses and buying something to stick them onto.
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Old 03-28-2015   #76
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There are no value digital RF cameras. M8 is crop sensor and may develop the screen problem. Leica will offer an upgrade for a price you will not want to pay.

M9 has sensor corrosion which appears mostly in hi humidity conditions. So far they are willing to repair free. Future ??

M is expensive and best long term solution.

Epson may or may not be good and repair is a big question.

ME is same as M9

You need to pay a lot of $ to get in the game. Digital Leicas all will have longish term repairability/parts problems. Their solution will be for you to pay for an upgrade.

Budget digital is Nikon D3300, D5500, D7200, D610. All these will take very good photos with much less investment but are not RF cameras.

There is no reason to buy Leica unless you already have lenses and they are modern and coded so they focus properly. Old lenses may need to be recalibrate.
I had a couple of Leica lenses from my film days and bought a M8 when that came out. Never had a problem with it and it is still my favorite camera. In a burst of GAS I wanted full frame and bought a M-E. The improvement for me was so little that I sold that and kept the M8. As the price for a M8 is relatively low today, I would say that is the best value if you like rangefinders.

And by the way, coding the lenses or not has nothing to do with focusing.
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Old 03-28-2015   #77
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I loved my M8.2 and at times I wish I kept it. The M9 is a camera I intended to keep until it died a natural death. Unfortunately the sensor issue had my camera in the repair show in 2013 and again in 2015.

I made the decision to go for the Leica M-P since Leica offered a $4200.00 credit for the used M9. So for me I find that the Leica M-P digital rangefinder offered the best value since I received a credit value of about 67 percent of the original price I paid for the four plus year old M9.
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Old 03-28-2015   #78
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Considering "all variables" for a totally absolute answer for Infinity and Beyond, I think the only answer is "none of the above. ever." Nikon included.

I know: mortal sin ever.
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Old 03-28-2015   #79
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Originally Posted by Sparrow View Post
... well it looks like Epson got it right with the very first Digital RF ever made, even all these years later Leica are struggling to make one we think is of equal value ... imagine if Cosina and Epson were to take what we've learned in the meantime and add a modern sensor in a new version of the RD1
The problem with Epson as a brand is that they are the antonym of Reliability --Customer Service included.

I think that Cosina is smart to stick to the lens-churning business rather than floating a new camera that is never going to please 100% of the market.

It's a perpetual game of "what have you done for me lately" and "you missed this spot on the corner, ffs". Did I type "game"? Exercise in futility, meants I.

If you specialize, the people on the outside will ridicule you for not being everything, or at least 99% of everything --"everything" meaning, of course, a specific set of subjective criteria.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, long rant short, that it's impossible to be Goldilocks' artisanal porridge to all Papa Bears and Mama Bears that are happy with microwaveable ramen soup.
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Old 03-30-2015   #80
Lss
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriel M.A. View Post
I think that Cosina is smart to stick to the lens-churning business rather than floating a new camera that is never going to please 100% of the market.
Their lenses do not please 100% of the market.
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