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View Poll Results: Why did you decide NOT to buy a digital Leica M?
it is too expensive 292 60.21%
there are other (digital) camera options that suit me better 111 22.89%
I am using only film cameras 128 26.39%
other reason ... [explain] 65 13.40%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 485. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-19-2014   #41
willie_901
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I had to check 'OTHER'.

When the M8 first came out I sent a letter to Leica expressing my interest, requesting a brochure, and some questions regarding how to obtain a place in the delivery queue.

Weeks later I received a succinct reply.

"After reading your letter of October 17, 2006 and examining your work from the links provided therein, Leica Camera AG prefers you refrain from ordering the M8.

We realize our decision will initially be a source of disappointment. Please understand Leica Camera AG firmly believes we are saving you from needlessly wasting financial resources on the pedestrian, derivative work your limited creative talents are doomed to produce until you die. We are confident that eventually your disappointment will turn into gratitude.

We have forwarded copies of your letter to Nikon Americas | USA and Canon USA Inc. Both companies offer photographic equipment that are commensurate with your you potential."


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Old 12-19-2014   #42
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Too expensive...for a person living at 10% above the national poverty level.
My only time to get any photo gear or replace a computer is after I receive my tax return.
And even then I would have to limit my expense to no more than 25% of that.

If, I had the resources.... I'd get the M240 most likely.
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Old 12-19-2014   #43
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For me, it comes down to - Is it worth the expense? for me?
The answer is no.
I can afford all digital M's but can't justify spending thousands on gear, since I only shoot for pleasure.
My digital appetite is easily satisfied by my GF1.
I like shooting and developing film, that's what I have been hoarding.
I have >100 film in my freezer which I intend to use over the next couple of years, I think I am set.
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Old 12-19-2014   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stnolan View Post
That being said if M digital bodies were in the $3k range I would probably bite.
M9s can be had on the bay for under 3K.
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Old 12-19-2014   #45
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I have the Leica M8, bought it after using the Epson R-D1 for about a year. The Epson was my first rangefinder camera.

I quite happily put my M8 files against my Sony RX1R files. This Sony betters any compact camera out there in image quality, but the Leica files are close in practical use. I have had no reliability problems, I don't find the filters an issue, and I use the camera also in low light at high ISO. It's a great camera as far as feel and usability go, and it's still also a competent digital image maker.

Having said that, I would like to get the improvements and fullframe offered by the new Leica M. The only reason not to buy it is the price. I think this is the major reason anyone who likes this type of the camera is not buying. Of course, many people find another type of camera more suitable and are therefore not interested. Other people do not know they would like such a camera. I was in that camp myself before getting the Epson a few years back.
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Old 12-19-2014   #46
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I have not bought a digital M because film is still available. Easy.
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Old 12-19-2014   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willie_901 View Post
I had to check 'OTHER'.

When the M8 first came out I sent a letter to Leica expressing my interest, requesting a brochure, and some questions regarding how to obtain a place in the delivery queue.

Weeks later I received a succinct reply.

"After reading your letter of October 17, 2006 and examining your work from the links provided therein, Leica Camera AG prefers you refrain from ordering the M8.

We realize our decision will initially be a source of disappointment. Please understand Leica Camera AG firmly believes we are saving you from needlessly wasting financial resources on the pedestrian, derivative work your limited creative talents are doomed to produce until you die. We are confident that eventually your disappointment will turn into gratitude.

We have forwarded copies of your letter to Nikon Americas | USA and Canon USA Inc. Both companies offer photographic equipment that are commensurate with your you potential."




...............lol.
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Old 12-19-2014   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willie_901 View Post
I had to check 'OTHER'.

When the M8 first came out I sent a letter to Leica expressing my interest, requesting a brochure, and some questions regarding how to obtain a place in the delivery queue.

Weeks later I received a succinct reply.

"After reading your letter of October 17, 2006 and examining your work from the links provided therein, Leica Camera AG prefers you refrain from ordering the M8.

We realize our decision will initially be a source of disappointment. Please understand Leica Camera AG firmly believes we are saving you from needlessly wasting financial resources on the pedestrian, derivative work your limited creative talents are doomed to produce until you die. We are confident that eventually your disappointment will turn into gratitude.

We have forwarded copies of your letter to Nikon Americas | USA and Canon USA Inc. Both companies offer photographic equipment that are commensurate with your you potential."


In other words.... they are pretty sure you're not cut out to be a dentist
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Old 12-19-2014   #49
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"
When the M8 first came out I sent a letter to Leica expressing my interest, requesting a brochure, and some questions regarding how to obtain a place in the delivery queue.

Weeks later I received a succinct reply.

"After reading your letter of October 17, 2006 and examining your work from the links provided therein, Leica Camera AG prefers you refrain from ordering the M8.

We realize our decision will initially be a source of disappointment. Please understand Leica Camera AG firmly believes we are saving you from needlessly wasting financial resources on the pedestrian, derivative work your limited creative talents are doomed to produce until you die. We are confident that eventually your disappointment will turn into gratitude.

We have forwarded copies of your letter to Nikon Americas | USA and Canon USA Inc. Both companies offer photographic equipment that are commensurate with your you potential."

Reminds me somewhat of the old story about a Rolls Royce salesman when asked by a prospective customer about the price of a new Rolls "motor".

He replied "If Sir must ask how much it costs, then be assured that Sir cannot afford it"
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Old 12-19-2014   #50
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Yeah, I don't have that kind of money.
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Old 12-19-2014   #51
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For a lot of people it is all about the rf experience.. Outside of the Epson rd1, only Leica currently has a drf.

For me it was about a light compact camera system that I could use when I really did not want to lug around my slr.

So for me, other digital solutions work for me.. And these days there are lots of light compact digital cameras that fit my needs.

Gary
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Old 12-20-2014   #52
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Originally Posted by Colin Corneau View Post
They are great cameras, but frankly Fuji and to an increasing extent Sony are kicking the crap out of them on the digital rangefinder market. Why pay a premium for a camera that is equalled or often bested by cheaper options?

The problem with digital cameras is that you have to look at them like computers now, as much as cameras -- obsolete in a matter of a few years. To pay such a premium for a camera that is outperformed in a matter of months, sometimes, is just looney.
Sorry, but what digital rangefinders are Sony and Fuji offering?
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Old 12-20-2014   #53
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A combination:
1. price and depreciation risk
2. not 100% convinced about the product, except monochrom
3. recent disappointment on sensor issue
4. sheer snobism with respect to leica recent marketing and their target customers (no offense intended to a few purits in RFF), for the same reason I do not drive an Audi
5. I shoot a lot of film
6. already own a full frame digital SLR and an X100

So... for this Christmas I have bought an XE-1 for the cost of a Leica ready-case with the purpose of shooting legacy lenses digitally (a gap I felt I had) and have freed up about 6000 euros to increase my stockpile of old equipment and I am very happy about this.

(Hope the XE-1 satisfies me as it is still in its box..)

Last edited by mretina : 12-20-2014 at 01:50. Reason: typos
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Old 12-20-2014   #54
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I admit to wanting one before the M8 arrived but paying that much was a turn off. After sticking with film for a while I bought a Nex 6 which I am very happy with and being so much cheaper it really wasn't so much of a decision. It has changed the way I take pictures.
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Old 12-20-2014   #55
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Digital Leicas are too expensive for my limited use; if I calculate how much shots I produce that are worth printing the price ofthe camera per print would be rediculous.

The costs of film will never exceed the value erosion of a digital camera, that is good enough (in my opinion).

"I am only using film cameras" is true also but it is not the reason for not having bought a digital M, but a consequence.
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Old 12-20-2014   #56
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Quote by Helenhill_HH

I'm not knocking DIGITAL, just for me I get bored
with film there is always a level of anticipation and suspense while developing

Quite simply I'm envious of you ALL who succeed with creating a beautiful digital file
me, I'm never happy with what I produce
so I go back to what I know and love...Film

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Old 12-20-2014   #57
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Having used Leica film cameras since 1971 it was a hard choice not too. I kept using my film cameras up until 2004 before I got a digital camera to play with. I kept using both film and digital, but digital was no wear as good as film in the beginning, but scanning my neg's was a pain so what was I too do.
I was never happy with the lack of sharpness with the digital vs film, but I saw that digital was the wave of the future, and every time you turned around the cameras were getting better. I almost got a M-8 but it was the price and it really was not a finished product. And the big thing was it was not like buying a film camera, that I could use it for 20 years. The life span of a early digital camera was, what 2 years before they came out with something that was far better.
My first digital camera I was happy with was the Ricoh GXR w/M module that I could finally use my M lenses on, I still really like that camera. Now I have added a Sony RX-1 (used) and that is the first digital camera I am not waiting for the new improved model to come out. I can see myself using this camera for years and be happy with no matter what new and improved camera's come out.
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Old 12-20-2014   #58
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The main reason is:
The price performance ratio / real value of the digital M is much worse compared to the film M cameras.

If you buy a film M new for about 4,000 bucks, you get a camera you can use for 50, 60, 70 or even more years.
You can use it for the rest of your life. And when you pass away, even your children can continue to use it.
Considering its life span, a new film M is indeed one of the cheapest cameras, and one with the best price - long-run performance ratios you can get.

But will you use a digital M for such a lifespan? No, not at all.
Digital cameras are not designed for such long life spans.
In some years, you will not have electronic spare parts if a repair is needed.
And furthermore digital sensors suffer from ageing effects over the years. Their performance decrease with the time:

http://www.harvestimaging.com/pubdoc...osmic_rays.pdf

Cheers, Jan

Last edited by HHPhoto : 12-20-2014 at 03:37. Reason: typo
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Old 12-20-2014   #59
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Having used Leica rangefinder cameras for forty years, I took half a step towards a digital M with an Epson R-D1 and might have bought a now affordable M8 if Fuji hadn't come up with the brilliant X-Pro1. I still love and use film Leicas - I've even had my old IIIC refurbished - but have come to think that the X-Pro is the digital 'rangefinder' camera Leica should have made.
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Old 12-20-2014   #60
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For some reason, the longer I wait, the better (in general) and cheaper (relative to Leica) the alternatives get.

I'll keep waiting with my still functioning M6.
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Old 12-20-2014   #61
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The M8 debacle placed me out of the "Circle of Trust".
One so called reviewer whose site I no longer even visit,
saw the magenta problem, remained silent!
Strangely Kodachrome gave me similar headaches in Studio..
I had to use Ektachrome to solve one Brown not green coat.
Firing Mr Lee was compounded by ending the M8.
There is nothing wrong with ASP C format.
Digital keeps evolving, the cameras, the PC's, updating all the time!
I needed Digital for pro. work back in 2005.
That's a long time in Digital..
I bought a Pentax Optio (fit in an Altoids box).
A Point and shoot that successfully made my transition.
Sort of!
Never saw reason for a Monster DSLR.
I have Film cameras, M's, Nikon Awesome Rig, Canon Rig, Pentax lots rig, seeing no point in selling at these prices!
Many were gifts, others bought for less than a cup of coffee..
I Love Film.
I do my own B/W film, thinking of re-starting my wet dark place.
I prefer the "look" of older lenses.
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Old 12-20-2014   #62
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Remonds me of the joke about the gear head who goes into a Rolls Royce dealership and asks: "how much horsepower does she have?" The Salesman calmly responds: "Sir, power is sufficient."


Quote:
Originally Posted by peterm1 View Post
"
When the M8 first came out I sent a letter to Leica expressing my interest, requesting a brochure, and some questions regarding how to obtain a place in the delivery queue.

Weeks later I received a succinct reply.

"After reading your letter of October 17, 2006 and examining your work from the links provided therein, Leica Camera AG prefers you refrain from ordering the M8.

We realize our decision will initially be a source of disappointment. Please understand Leica Camera AG firmly believes we are saving you from needlessly wasting financial resources on the pedestrian, derivative work your limited creative talents are doomed to produce until you die. We are confident that eventually your disappointment will turn into gratitude.

We have forwarded copies of your letter to Nikon Americas | USA and Canon USA Inc. Both companies offer photographic equipment that are commensurate with your you potential."

Reminds me somewhat of the old story about a Rolls Royce salesman when asked by a prospective customer about the price of a new Rolls "motor".

He replied "If Sir must ask how much it costs, then be assured that Sir cannot afford it"
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Old 12-20-2014   #63
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Interesting question, interesting answers for someone like me on the fence to buy one.
I voted "other" and i would like to specify.
Price is important, I can afford it (Due to age and family reasons I'm selling my sales boat and part of this could finance a digital M). Having an M7 I already have the lenses I need. Ok, they should be coded and eventually calibrated but this is not the main problem.
The main problem is the low level of customer care: I can stand to have the camera serviced let's say once a year but if this takes more than 2 or 3 weeks is too much for me.
My M7 rangefinder needs calibration at least once a year but this can be done locally in a couple of weeks. If service from Solms requires more time I could accept this only if I could have the option to have a substituted body for that time, even paying a (reasonable) price for this.
Size and weight compared to a M film body are also a negative point, but I guess this could be overcome.
There is another minor problem: my wife and me oft travel and sleep in small hotels, B&B or other places where there is no safe and sometimes we would like to go out without a camera with us, just to enjoy a meal or a theater and leaving a 6.000 Eur camera in a room is not so nice...
Sorry for the long post, now if I'll buy one or not is not yet decided...
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Old 12-20-2014   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by helenhill_HH View Post
'Daveleo', Did I hear 'FIRE'....

No No ! .... I meant that as a generic comment on what I see on the internet - people shooting (IMO) mediocre images with very expensive equipment.
Definitely not meant as a "cheap shot" at Leica.
I am sincere - the technical output of even average digital cameras far exceeds the talent level of the average picture maker, IMO. (I include myself in that lot ). I simply came to that realization - most pictures made aren't worth $10,000 worth of gear.

Okay .... I am gone for a week, so count me out of any further brawls on this
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Old 12-20-2014   #65
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It has never entered my mind to spend that much on any single photographic instrument. The most I have ever spent on a single camera was indeed a Leica, an M4-2 body for about $900 (in current dollars). That was a 'hold your breath moment' for me, I questioned my own sanity for spending that much.

So, I guess I could have checked the "It is too expensive" box, but really, such expenditures are not considered and then rejected, they are never considered at all.
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Old 12-20-2014   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raid View Post
In the end, both film photography and digital photography can be enjoyed if you just look at each the right way.
Given the personal and pretty straightforward answers you have recieved, I'm not sure of the value of this statement. As a pro who has used digital for over 20 years, seen the problems it has caused in photography in general, the right way for me to look at it is to avoid it at all costs.

The right way to look at it will vary from individual to individual....
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Old 12-20-2014   #67
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Yes, it varies from person to person how digital photography is viewed.
I am not trying to downplay such personal views.
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Old 12-20-2014   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daveleo View Post
No No ! .... I meant that as a generic comment on what I see on the internet - people shooting (IMO) mediocre images with very expensive equipment.
Definitely not meant as a "cheap shot" at Leica.
I am sincere - the technical output of even average digital cameras far exceeds the talent level of the average picture maker, IMO. (I include myself in that lot ). I simply came to that realization - most pictures made aren't worth $10,000 worth of gear.

Okay .... I am gone for a week, so count me out of any further brawls on this
This probably sums up my reason for selling my digital M bodies. I use digital for work so the high expense of top end CaNikon gear pays for itself easily over the course of their lifespans. Unfortunately I couldn't say the same for my M8 and M9 as these were used 99% of the time for personal/hobby pursuits and so it was a simple decision based upon my financial situation and alternative options. I can now use two XPro bodies and a clutch of lenses for some of my work (reportage style weddings) and hobby pursuits for the price of one new digital M. Plus I have enough spare cash to indulge my enjoyment of film with an old M6 and Hexar AF.

I did love my M9, no issues with it whatsoever thankfully, but for the use it was getting I felt I had more money tied up in it than I could reasonably justify. I'm glad I had the opportunity to own one for a while though.
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Old 12-20-2014   #69
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Besides price I was discouraged by the problems that were reported with most models. For M's I stuck with film and for digital I went elsewhere
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Old 12-20-2014   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johannielscom View Post
Bought an M8 actually and after two months traded it towards an M6 0.85 non-TTL and cash. I hated that M8.

Not buying M9, Monochrom, M240 because of:
Price
Ruggedness (lacking)
Price
Price

My D700 almost suffices, a Fuji X-T1 would be a nice addition, but: price...
Pretty much the same experience for me. I actually bought 2 M9Ps but, well, they just weren't film Ms. I traded them in and got my perfect a la carte Film MPs on which to use my many M lenses. I guess I'm just not interested in digital photography, and certainly not at that price. If I want to use digital for some reason, I have some Ricoh GXR units that are more than adequate for the rare times I feel the need.
That said, if I had to give up film, the Leica M240 is the only digital camera I would consider to use on a daily basis.
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Old 12-20-2014   #71
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Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
Sorry, but what digital rangefinders are Sony and Fuji offering?
Pedantry...I forgot about the pedantry that surrounds so much of the Leica experience.

For the nitpickers in the audience: Fuji and Sony offer cameras that are small, quiet and are *comparable* to an actual rangefinder...the fact that Fuji's X series is growing leaps and bounds attests to its appeal.
I forgot to add the growing array of mirrorless options, too. Prestige is Leica's marketing tack, and it's been smartly and adeptly gained -- however, there's a gap between what you pay for and what you actually get, IMHO...having sensors that fall apart underlines that pretty starkly, I'd say.
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Old 12-20-2014   #72
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Wait a minute: I decided not to buy a digital Leica M? I'm going to have to get back to you on that, don't know what this M8 is doing here
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Old 12-20-2014   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Corneau View Post
Pedantry...I forgot about the pedantry that surrounds so much of the Leica experience.

For the nitpickers in the audience: Fuji and Sony offer cameras that are small, quiet and are *comparable* to an actual rangefinder...
Not really pedantry is it ...most shoot rangefinders because they have a rangefinder .
They also happen to be on the small side (although that comparison isn`t what is was) and are quite (but so are other cameras I agree).

Non of the others have a rangefinder though.

As for me ...I`ve been on the fence for a while about a digital Leica but they aren`t cost effective from perspective .

I prefer the output from my Merrills anyway even though they are a dog of a camera in many respects.

The latest sensor debacle has put paid to any lingering thoughts which I may have been lurking at the back of my mind.

Just don`t make any sense for me so I`m sticking with my film M bodies.
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Old 12-20-2014   #74
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Reliability and price.
Sadly I dont think the digi M's will ever be reliable or be backed up by the Leica manufacturer sufficiently for me to throw away money on them. I'd rather buy Nikon.
Film M's on the other hand will always be one of my choices.
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Old 12-20-2014   #75
Shac
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That's great and I'm pleased for you. I just can't afford them or the associated risk

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I have has absolutely no problems with my MM (knock on wood) 30K + and 2 years. I already had problems with all 4 of my Canon digital bodies by now.
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Old 12-20-2014   #76
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Sadly I dont think the digi M's will ever be reliable or be backed up by the Leica manufacturer sufficiently for me to throw away money on them.
But, but, but! Leica will stand behind digital M's INDEFINITELY ... by some accounts!
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Old 12-20-2014   #77
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But, but, but! Leica will stand behind digital M's INDEFINITELY ... by some accounts!
I know Jeff, amazing. With their current track record for camera support, DMR, M8, how many rationally thinking people believe that b@@@@cks? It would seem more than I thought but I'm actually relieved that there are plenty of others who are sceptical
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Old 12-20-2014   #78
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That's great and I'm pleased for you. I just can't afford them or the associated risk

Yep ... bring the price down or reduce the risk ...either will do.
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Old 12-20-2014   #79
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Like most people, price, and digital rot, which Leicas are not exempt from. I do love Leicas and the film bodies have a well deserved reputation. The digital ones however are a different beast. There are simply too many other cameras just as good for a fraction of the price. I bought a Fuji X100S instead. My favorite is still my M2, with the X100S a close second. I would not spend $7K on any digital camera when not making a living with it, and even then... Leicas are a bit of a cult, nothing wrong with that, but I try to cling to some remnant of objectivity when spending that much money...

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Old 12-20-2014   #80
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I corrected them, in future just PM a mod.
Good advice. Thanks!
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