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Freestyle and Arista announce new line of BW film and paper
Old 04-19-2013   #1
pdexposures
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Freestyle and Arista announce new line of BW film and paper

http://www.pdexposures.tv/introducin...ion-by-arista/

Introducing The Silver Collection by Arista black and white films and papers!
Manufactured in the United Kingdom under strict direction by Freestyle, we bring you a new black and white film in 100 and 400 ISO. Available in 35mm, 120 size and popular sheet film sizes, these new films are sure to satisfy the most discriminating of photographic artists while maintaining that low Freestyle value price point.The new Silver Collection by Arista B&W paper is available in variable contrast resin coated glossy and semi-matte. Graded RC papers are also available in standard medium weight on a pure white base and very neutral to cold image tone. Compatible with Ilford Multigrade filters, these new papers have the contrast range and exposure speed to deliver outstanding fine art prints. A true professional quality, value priced product.
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Old 04-19-2013   #2
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this is exciting news.... we need some options since Arista premium seems to be coming to a end... can we assume that since it is coming from the UK that it is some srort of Ilford product?
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Old 04-19-2013   #3
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Yes Good news. Long live film.
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Old 04-19-2013   #4
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If Harman (Ilford-Photo in other words) have won the contract, then that implies that Foma have lost it. I hope the consequences will not be too severe for Foma as they do supply a wider variety of black-and-white materials than, for example, Kodak.
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Old 04-19-2013   #5
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Nothing else then Ilford RC paper overstock and Kentmere films.

If you followed as closely as I did, while BH photo has kept the 100' kentmere rolls at a perfect price of 30$ (Now that's a deal!!! Was 29,99 and it's now at 35$), Freestyle has hiked the Kentmeree prices to over 44$ (was 35$). This price hike was probably to make way to this "new" rebadged film (which should be priced to the original Kentmere pricing, somewhere around 35$ the 100' roll).


Quite obvious. But I have to add that altough a very good company, Freestyle is substantially higher priced then BH on almost ALL the products they offer.
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Old 04-19-2013   #6
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So is Kentmere/Arista Silver Collection 100 and 400 the same as FP-4 and HP5+, or is it another formulation?
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Old 04-19-2013   #7
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So is Kentmere/Arista Silver Collection 100 and 400 the same as FP-4 and HP5+, or is it another formulation?
To the best of my knowledge, yes.

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Old 04-19-2013   #8
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Interesting -- I recall years ago that Ilford sold something called Universal 400, and it was decidedly grainier than HP5+ or Tri-X -- it was cheap and thus popular as a film for students. I wonder if this is the same thing (the 400 that is).
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Old 04-19-2013   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinP View Post
If Harman (Ilford-Photo in other words) have won the contract, then that implies that Foma have lost it. I hope the consequences will not be too severe for Foma as they do supply a wider variety of black-and-white materials than, for example, Kodak.
JMO
but I don't think the Arista Silver Collection is meant to replace the current Arista EDU line of products but rather provided a higher quality option to be offered along side the current EDU line.
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Old 04-19-2013   #10
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No, HP5 and FP4 are very different then the Kentmere films. They are very good films, nonetheless.
But I know HP5 quite well and FP4 is absolutely unmistakable. The whites, light grays are unique to it.

But I am 100% confident that the new "silver" films are Kentmere. What else?
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Old 04-19-2013   #11
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Whatever it is, at least it is some (not new) thing that is available, in the USA, that adds to our film arsenal.
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Old 04-19-2013   #12
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I agree with other posters. This new silver collection is a replacement for Arista Premium & perhaps Legacy Pro. Arista EDU will remain unchanged. This is certainly good news.
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Old 04-20-2013   #13
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Harman is producing Rollei RPX 100 and 400 for Macodirect, probably new Arista films will be the same as Rollei. And Rollei RPX 400 is not a Kentmere 400. I've used both and like Rollei more. I would say that I like Rollei more than HP5.
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Old 04-20-2013   #14
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kentmere in 120 format ? hmmmm
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Old 04-20-2013   #15
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if it turns out to be Rollei 100 and 400 I will be pretty happy
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Old 04-20-2013   #16
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Quote:
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kentmere in 120 format ? hmmmm
That's what I thought along with Kentmere in 4x5, 5x7 and 8x10.

I'll admit that I know little or nothing of about the production of B&W film so have no idea what the requirements are for producing 120 or sheet film vs 35mm roll film.
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Old 04-20-2013   #17
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kentmere in 120 format ? hmmmm
I'm just speculating, as all of us. But if it's Harman, then it's probably Kentmere and not HP5 and FP4. However, if 120 film sales are slow, nothing prevents it from being FP4 and HP5 in 120 and Kentmere in 135. As a re-brand, there's no rules that say that 135 and 120 should be the same.

Just like Fomapan400 in 120 has changed drastically to the point of not even being the same film at all and no notifications were given from Foma.
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Old 04-20-2013   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinP View Post
If Harman (Ilford-Photo in other words) have won the contract, then that implies that Foma have lost it. I hope the consequences will not be too severe for Foma as they do supply a wider variety of black-and-white materials than, for example, Kodak.
As long as they continue the excellent Foma/Arista EDU Ultra line, then it's a win-win.
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http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131945
Old 04-21-2013   #19
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http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131945

i really like Kentmere 400. the gritty grainy grungy look.
my scanner Canonscan reduces all shots to that!
i like it for being flat! The flattest film so far..
Sad part is Freestyle will get and B+H,Adorama out of stock..
i'd pay more, it ain't there for months.
i will not keep paying more and more..
i will go digital.
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Old 04-21-2013   #20
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Good to Hear ..Yay
I always have loved arista premium
So hopefully this 'New' film will be equally as Good in its rendering & style
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Old 04-21-2013   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoNickon View Post
So is Kentmere/Arista Silver Collection 100 and 400 the same as FP-4 and HP5+, or is it another formulation?
Let us all hope that Ilford Photo / Harman is not so stupid to give their flagship products (concerning sales volume) FP4+ and HP5+ to Freestyle.
The former Ilford made this mistake back in time (ten years ago). That has been one of the reasons why they collapsed 2004 and got in insolvency. The margins of these re-branded products have been much lower for Ilford compared to their own brand. Too much photographers bought the rebranded (low margin) stuff instead of the original Ilford material, which significantly hurts Ilford's income.

Kodak and Fuji learned this lesson recently:
Photographers learned fast that Arista Premium was Kodak, and Legacy Pro was Fuji.
And what did they do? They bought Arista Premium instead of Tri-X, and Legacy Pro instead of Fuji Neopan.
Very bad for Kodak and Fuji: They've lost customers to products with extremely low margins, hurting their income.
Probably they have now learned this lesson: It does not make sense to give high quality products to Freestyle. It damages sales of own products with better margins.

The best we can hope for Ilford and the market is, that the Arista Silver Collection is a different, new low(er) quality product.

All this avariciousness is very harmful for the market:
If we want our manufacturers to stay alive and healthy, we have to pay fair prices!
Therefore I will continue to buy original Ilford branded material, and original Fuji and Kodak branded stuff.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 04-21-2013   #22
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Let us all hope that Ilford Photo / Harman is not so stupid to give their flagship products (concerning sales volume) FP4+ and HP5+ to Freestyle.
The former Ilford made this mistake back in time (ten years ago). That has been one of the reasons why they collapsed 2004 and got in insolvency. The margins of these re-branded products have been much lower for Ilford compared to their own brand. Too much photographers bought the rebranded (low margin) stuff instead of the original Ilford material, which significantly hurts Ilford's income.

Kodak and Fuji learned this lesson recently:
Photographers learned fast that Arista Premium was Kodak, and Legacy Pro was Fuji.
And what did they do? They bought Arista Premium instead of Tri-X, and Legacy Pro instead of Fuji Neopan.
Very bad for Kodak and Fuji: They've lost customers to products with extremely low margins, hurting their income.
Probably they have now learned this lesson: It does not make sense to give high quality products to Freestyle. It damages sales of own products with better margins.

The best we can hope for Ilford and the market is, that the Arista Silver Collection is a different, new low(er) quality product.

All this avariciousness is very harmful for the market:
If we want our manufacturers to stay alive and healthy, we have to pay fair prices!
Therefore I will continue to buy original Ilford branded material, and original Fuji and Kodak branded stuff.

Cheers, Jan
They aren't. That's why they make 'second line' Kentmere film.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 04-21-2013   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Hicks View Post
They aren't. That's why they make 'second line' Kentmere film.

Cheers,

R.
Hi Roger,

well yes, I know Harman implemented the Kentmere films as a cheaper, lower quality supplement to their Ilford films.

But the question is, which material is shipped by Harman to Freestyle for this new Arista stuff.
The problem with Kentmere for Ilford: Due to my source (a very big European film distributor) Harman's margin with the Kentmere films is in 1-2 Cent range per film. So it is extremely low.
Freestyle has a reputation in the industry for being very brutal concerning price negotiations with their suppliers.
Expanding their margin at the cost of the manufacturer.
I've heard that again and again from different manufacturers who have shipped material to FS.

Therefore I have my doubts that this news is really good news for the market or for Ilford.
It could be counterproductive (of course I hope that that will not be the case).
As I said before: For a sustainable market we have to pay fair prices to our manufacturers.
Too low prices are destroying the manufacturers.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 04-21-2013   #24
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Hi Roger,

well yes, I know Harman implemented the Kentmere films as a cheaper, lower quality supplement to their Ilford films.

But the question is, which material is shipped by Harman to Freestyle for this new Arista stuff.
The problem with Kentmere for Ilford: Due to my source (a very big European film distributor) Harman's margin with the Kentmere films is in 1-2 Cent range per film. So it is extremely low.
Freestyle has a reputation in the industry for being very brutal concerning price negotiations with their suppliers.
Expanding their margin at the cost of the manufacturer.
I've heard that again and again from different manufacturers who have shipped material to FS.

Therefore I have my doubts that this news is really good news for the market or for Ilford.
It could be counterproductive (of course I hope that that will not be the case).
As I said before: For a sustainable market we have to pay fair prices to our manufacturers.
Too low prices are destroying the manufacturers.

Cheers, Jan
Dear Jan,

Having had their fingers burnt with Freestyle before the buy-out -- after it became widely known that they were supplying premium film at low prices -- Harman/Ilford is EXTREMELY careful about all this. I have spoken to two directors about it (though I admit not in the last year or so).

You are of course absolutely right that short-term chasing of the lowest price is in the long term destructive of both quality and choice.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 04-21-2013   #25
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Ilford has stated repeatedly, perhaps even ad nauseum that they DO NOT REBRAND ILFORD FILMS. It most certainly will not be anything currently sold under the Ilford name. Kentmere maybe, but I think I have even seen them mention they would not rebrand Kentmere either.
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Old 04-21-2013   #26
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Given the quantities that Freestyle buys, I'd have thought it would even be possible for Ilford to coat and convert master rolls for 'em.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 04-21-2013   #27
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In the past I was under the impression that I bought Ilford 120 film 125 ASA from Freestyle that was a private label. Still have some left; however, it expired in 2008 but still works fine. As I recall I paid, when ordering 100 rolls around $1.79 per.

The spools and paper backing sure look like FP4.

Am I wrong?
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Old 04-21-2013   #28
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The Arista label seems to be the death knell for so many films and papers, I do hope Ilford can keep control of this...

And that is some butt-ugly graphics (even for Freestyle) for the Silver Collection.
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Old 04-21-2013   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sepiareverb View Post
The Arista label seems to be the death knell for so many films and papers, I do hope Ilford can keep control of this...

And that is some butt-ugly graphics (even for Freestyle) for the Silver Collection.
How is it the death knell? Kodak still makes Tri-X while Freestyle sells it as Arista Premium 400. Foma still makes their 100, 200, and 400 Fomapan films while Freestyle sells the Arista.EDU Ultra rebrand of it. Freestyle quit selling Legacy Pro, which was Fuji Neopan 400 and Acros, both of which are still made.
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Old 04-21-2013   #30
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Ilford has stated repeatedly, perhaps even ad nauseum that they DO NOT REBRAND ILFORD FILMS. It most certainly will not be anything currently sold under the Ilford name. Kentmere maybe, but I think I have even seen them mention they would not rebrand Kentmere either.
Yeah, so? You believe them? I certainly don't and that's not a bad thing.
I mean, they have to make money and save face at the same time.
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Old 04-21-2013   #31
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Do the expenses differ much producing ilford hp5+ and kentmere? I dont think so, just slightly different formulas. They want to cover different niches. FS is just a good additional sales channel to sell overstocks. I dont belive that a FS has such a big market share that arista film sales will decrease ilford sales a lot. It's not 2004, films sales are shrinking.

(sorry for bad english).
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Old 04-21-2013   #32
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Yeah, so? You believe them? I certainly don't and that's not a bad thing.
I mean, they have to make money and save face at the same time.
I do believe them and I don't see any reason they'd need to lie about it. I guess we'll find out what it is when it's in stock.
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Old 04-21-2013   #33
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I do believe them and I don't see any reason they'd need to lie about it. I guess we'll find out what it is when it's in stock.
Seriously?
The reason is quite obvious and it's one of the main subject of this thread.
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http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131945
Old 04-21-2013   #34
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http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131945

Arista Premium was/is Tri-X BUT it comes mostly from the beginning and ends of a master roll.Less quality control, small areas not perfectly coated. Something i've noticed on films of late. All makes seem to have these pinholes..Thought it was me! Movie stock also has these defects. Not a problem at 24FPS or faster..
Who else has noticed? Ctein also mentions the defects in modern films. He has now moved to digital.see Online Photographer.
I find my scanned images seem to show mostly the faults of film!
Rats! It is very disappointing. It's acceptable but does not look in anyway like a wet print from when i used a real darkroom.My opinion.
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Old 04-22-2013   #35
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Originally Posted by Chriscrawfordphoto View Post
How is it the death knell? Kodak still makes Tri-X while Freestyle sells it as Arista Premium 400. Foma still makes their 100, 200, and 400 Fomapan films while Freestyle sells the Arista.EDU Ultra rebrand of it. Freestyle quit selling Legacy Pro, which was Fuji Neopan 400 and Acros, both of which are still made.
More a signal of impending doom for the company and analog materials I suppose. Fuji is barely making film, Kodak is barely there. Kodak B&W papers were rebranded, and went away. Now they're rebranding the color paper...

FOMA is the exception in this list.

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Arista Premium was/is Tri-X BUT it comes mostly from the beginning and ends of a master roll.Less quality control, small areas not perfectly coated.
I've seen this as well in Arista Premium.
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Old 04-22-2013   #36
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Originally Posted by Chriscrawfordphoto View Post
Freestyle quit selling Legacy Pro, which was Fuji Neopan 400 and Acros, both of which are still made.
Neopan 400 isn't made any longer - only remaining stocks are for sale on Earth. And when it's gone, it's gone.
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Old 04-22-2013   #37
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Arista Premium was/is Tri-X BUT it comes mostly from the beginning and ends of a master roll.
Sorry to say, but that is simply nonsense, which is spread in internet forums by people with no knowledge of film coating.
The beginning of a master roll cannot be used for any end product at all. Not usable for even 4. grade products. It completely goes the way of recycling.

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Originally Posted by leicapixie View Post
Less quality control, small areas not perfectly coated. Something i've noticed on films of late. All makes seem to have these pinholes..Thought it was me! Movie stock also has these defects. Not a problem at 24FPS or faster..
Who else has noticed?
No one. Not with Kodak, Fuji, Ilford and Agfa-Gevaert current production.
With Fotokemika yes, often. Their bad quality was one of the reasons I've stopped using them.
Foma: Sometimes.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 04-22-2013   #38
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Fuji is barely making film,
They are the second largest film manufacturer worldwide. And they are by far the largest manufacturer of color negative paper (RA-4) worldwide (they even have introduced new RA-4 products last year).
By the way, they have also build a new plant for Instax instant film manufacturing recently, to satisfy the significantly increasing demand for Instax film, especially in Asia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sepiareverb View Post
FOMA is the exception in this list.
Foma is now probably the weakest candidate in the market. Much weaker than Ilford or Fuji.
And the current Freestyle / IlfordPhoto deal will certainly have negative effects on Foma's sales.
Because it simply means Ilford is (via FS) more and more entering the low price market = Foma's main market.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 04-22-2013   #39
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Neopan 400 isn't made any longer - only remaining stocks are for sale on Earth. And when it's gone, it's gone.
That's wrong. Only the 24exp rolls production has been stopped. Normal 36exp. rolls production is continued.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 04-22-2013   #40
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No one. Not with Kodak, Fuji, Ilford and Agfa-Gevaert current production.
With Fotokemika yes, often. Their bad quality was one of the reasons I've stopped using them.
Foma: Sometimes.

Cheers, Jan
Fotokemika and Foma regularly yes, but the Arista version of Tri-X had numerous coating problems a year and a bit ago. My college program uses the Arista Premium and we all saw it across the board, even on films from those students who have impeccable processing methods. Perhaps a fluke, and as stated elsewhere anyone can have something slip through no matter how good their QC.

I don't think anyone can argue that the range of films from Fuji and Kodak have been halved over the last few years. Not saying Freestyle has anything to do with that, just noting the coincidence. Perhaps Freestyle is a clearing house more than we think (I'm a regular Freestyle customer don't get me wrong here). I'm concerned this means that Ilford is finding it hard to move through their stock, they and ADOX have been seeming like our last great hopes.
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