Go Back   Rangefinderforum.com > Cameras / Gear / Photography > Rangefinder Forum > Image Processing: Darkroom / Lightroom / Film > Film vs Digital

Film vs Digital Discussions about the relative advantages and disadvantages of Film vs Digital are important as they can help us understand our choices as photographers. Each medium has strengths and weaknesses which can best be used in a given circumstance. While this makes for an interesting and useful discussion, DO NOT attack others who disagree with you. Forum rules are explained in the RFF FAQ linked at the top of each page.

View Poll Results: Would he use film or digital?
I believe he would still use film. film has much more to offer, even now. 134 38.62%
He would go M9 for sure 161 46.40%
D700 after he nagged on forums about the M8 magenta problem 52 14.99%
Voters: 347. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes

What would HC Bresson Do?
Old 10-21-2010   #1
bizarrius
the great
 
bizarrius's Avatar
 
bizarrius is offline
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: house
Age: 30
Posts: 269
What would HC Bresson Do?

Well, all we see around is "i use film because bla bla" and "i use digital because bla bla"
One of many reasons on why people use film is: "i like film because big photographers used it and they didn't need anything more"
yes but they never had digital :S

So...what do you think that HC Bresson would do if he was alive today?
Would he still use film or would he go M9? or even D700?
__________________
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.

i am here: www.bizarri.us
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-21-2010   #2
Roger Hicks
Registered User
 
Roger Hicks is offline
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Aquitaine
Posts: 22,703
Quote:
Originally Posted by bizarrius View Post
Well, all we see around is "i use film because bla bla" and "i use digital because bla bla"
One of many reasons on why people use film is: "i like film because big photographers used it and they didn't need anything more"
yes but they never had digital :S

So...what do you think that HC Bresson would do if he was alive today?
Would he still use film or would he go M9? or even D700?
Exactly. But this is so far into the counterfactual condititional that I can't bring myself to vote. France in 2010 is so different from France in 1930 that it's another unbridgeable gap, and HCB was a one-off anyway...

Cheers,

R.
__________________
Go to www.rogerandfrances.eu for a whole new website
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-21-2010   #3
varjag
Eugene Zaikonnikov
 
varjag's Avatar
 
varjag is offline
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bergen, Norway
Age: 39
Posts: 2,991
Uh, he died in 2004, mind you. Digital cameras at this point were widely available, he could use one if he wanted.

Case closed.
__________________
Eugene

My Flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-21-2010   #4
Mcary
Registered User
 
Mcary is offline
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Virginia USA
Age: 55
Posts: 1,440
None of the above: He'd tell us to stop wasting so much time worrying about what he would do and just go out and take some F'n pictures. Or better yet learn how to paint.
__________________
M. Cary
Trying to see something new whither I'm visiting someplace new or a place that I've been a dozens of times before.
Tumblr http://www.tumblr.com/blog/mcaryartnude
Not work safe

  Reply With Quote

Old 10-21-2010   #5
Roger Hicks
Registered User
 
Roger Hicks is offline
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Aquitaine
Posts: 22,703
Quote:
Originally Posted by varjag View Post
Uh, he died in 2004, mind you. Digital cameras at this point were widely available, he could use one if he wanted.

Case closed.
Hadn't he given up photography some time before?

And isn't the real question some way from what HCB would have done? Or Julia Margaret Cameron or Doisneau or anyone else, really? Isn't it closer to, "Are there any great photographers using film today," in which case the answer is surely 'yes', or "Are there any great photographers using digital today," in which case the answer is also 'yes'.

HCB used a relatively new and untried technology with the Leica. Willy Ronis switched from Rollei to Foca and then Pentax in the 1950s. Yes, there are always great photographers who choose a particular medium/ camera/ format for the look it gives, but my suspicion is that they always look at what's available; at what's easiest to use; at what'll come closest to what they want; at what they can afford (not a problem in HCB's case); and then choose the best compromise.

To pretend that all of the greats of the past would have made exactly the same compromises, now that digital is in the mix, is patently nonsensical. Of course some (probably most, in my view) would choose digital, simply because an awful lot of photographers, even good ones, stick with mainstream technologies. Equally, others don't. Which is why I can't answer the poll.

Phrase it in terms of "Should we use film because HCB did," and although it's a slightly more useful debate, the answer is still "Of course not. Use what you're happy with."

Somewhere in here, though, there is almost certainly a question worth asking. I just don't think that the OP found it, and I certainly haven't been able to phrase it right. But for me, RFF is currently displacement activity from writing some fiction, which is much harder work.

Cheers,

R.
__________________
Go to www.rogerandfrances.eu for a whole new website
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-21-2010   #6
robklurfield
eclipse
 
robklurfield's Avatar
 
robklurfield is offline
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: New Jersey, USA
Age: 57
Posts: 7,878
you got that right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mcary View Post
None of the above: He'd tell us to stop wasting so much time worrying about what he would do and just go out and take some F'n pictures. Or better yet learn how to paint.
__________________
rob klurfield
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertklurfield

blog: http://hemi-sphericalaberration.blogspot.com/

google +: gplus.to/robklurfield

"I'm sure it wouldn't interest anybody
outside of a small circle of friends." - Phil Ochs

"His photos are saturated with obviousness, mental inertia, clichés and bad jokes." -http://www.500letters.org/form_15.php



I point. I shoot. sometimes, I focus first.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-21-2010   #7
robklurfield
eclipse
 
robklurfield's Avatar
 
robklurfield is offline
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: New Jersey, USA
Age: 57
Posts: 7,878
What about Daguerre?

If HCB were alive and could use a time travel machine to visit the year 2100 and he met up with a group of itinerant space aliens, what lens would he use to capture their portraits?

The way I see it is that Cartier-Bresson was no one's technician. His photography isn't fundamentally about that. He was focused on capturing a view of life from where he stood. He used the tools that were at hand. If he were alive and if he returned to photography (he dropped it pretty thoroughly, didn't he), he'd do the same now as he did way back when. He'd grab the best, most convenient tool nearby and he'd record his version of what he saw. Pretty plain and simple. He'd probably think us all to be wasting our time on such silly speculation. Also, Leica would probably give him an M9 titanium which he wouldn't use because it was too slippery.

I have seen a picture of him holding a Minolta CLE.
__________________
rob klurfield
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertklurfield

blog: http://hemi-sphericalaberration.blogspot.com/

google +: gplus.to/robklurfield

"I'm sure it wouldn't interest anybody
outside of a small circle of friends." - Phil Ochs

"His photos are saturated with obviousness, mental inertia, clichés and bad jokes." -http://www.500letters.org/form_15.php



I point. I shoot. sometimes, I focus first.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-21-2010   #8
varjag
Eugene Zaikonnikov
 
varjag's Avatar
 
varjag is offline
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bergen, Norway
Age: 39
Posts: 2,991
Roger,

You certainly have a point if we talk about hypothetic Cartier-Bresson from a parallel universe, born a century later. I was more addressing the "what HCB would do be he alive now" part, and to that I think we have clear answer: he would most definitely not use any digital camera sold before August 2004.
__________________
Eugene

My Flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-21-2010   #9
igi
Registered User
 
igi is offline
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 298
I think HCB would use digital.

By the way, HCB does not develop his own film right?
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-21-2010   #10
igi
Registered User
 
igi is offline
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos M View Post
Non of the above.
In fact he gave up photography completely years before his death and went back to sketching with a pencil. So if he were still alive today I guess he'd still be sketching.
I think what the OP clearly meant was what would HCB use today if he was still into photography... not the technicality of today being 2010 and he stopped photography many years before his death.

This discussion is interesting so lets not be too stiff on the facts as we at least know what the OP means.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-22-2010   #11
bizarrius
the great
 
bizarrius's Avatar
 
bizarrius is offline
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: house
Age: 30
Posts: 269
Thank you igi.
My main ponder is that i often look at commentary videos or pictures of photographers i am influenced by or more specifically...jealous of them and they use mainly film but i am really wondering exactly what igi said, and i probably wasn't able to write that down. i suck at writing text. i can only talk on camera (thats my dayjob )

no need to flame me or anything. its just a poll and a stupid question amongst others
__________________
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.

i am here: www.bizarri.us
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-22-2010   #12
Roger Hicks
Registered User
 
Roger Hicks is offline
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Aquitaine
Posts: 22,703
No flaming intended. As I say, there's a really good question in there somewhere -- possibly several really good questions.

How about: Are we sometimes over-influenced by (overly jealous of) the past? Do we try to ignore all the changes that have occurred in technology and society since our heroes were taking pictures? If so, what is the best way to counter this tendency?

Personally I'd recommend going to Arles: http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subsc...es%202010.html

Cheers,

R.
__________________
Go to www.rogerandfrances.eu for a whole new website
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-22-2010   #13
Frontman
Registered User
 
Frontman is offline
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: 東京日本
Posts: 1,659
This week I am carrying a couple different cameras. The first is a little Lumix DMC-LX5. My usual digicam has been a Nikon D-300, but I decided to get something smaller and lighter. So far I am really enjoying the Lumix. It powers up instantly, focuses quickly, and works great at higher ISO settings.

The second camera is a Canon 7 with the big 50/.095 lens. I am using this combo for the first time, and wondering what kind of results I am going to get out of it. I'll be doing a lot of developing this week, I'm nearly through a brick of Trix.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-22-2010   #14
robklurfield
eclipse
 
robklurfield's Avatar
 
robklurfield is offline
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: New Jersey, USA
Age: 57
Posts: 7,878
no question is stupid. sorry if my comment came across as flaming. not my intention at all.

if your day job involves "talking on camera" you are probably a lucky man. rather than feeling jealous, why not shoot more film when you're not at your day job?

I don't think HCB cared to much about the equipment so long as it worked, was easy to handle and unobtrusive. As some else observed, he rarely processed or printed anything himself. So, I suspect, if he were at this same game today, he would use whatever they stuck in his hands. I could easily see him with an M9 or an MP. I doubt he'd carry both at once. He seemed to be quite the minimalist in terms of equipment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bizarrius View Post
Thank you igi.
My main ponder is that i often look at commentary videos or pictures of photographers i am influenced by or more specifically...jealous of them and they use mainly film but i am really wondering exactly what igi said, and i probably wasn't able to write that down. i suck at writing text. i can only talk on camera (thats my dayjob )

no need to flame me or anything. its just a poll and a stupid question amongst others
__________________
rob klurfield
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertklurfield

blog: http://hemi-sphericalaberration.blogspot.com/

google +: gplus.to/robklurfield

"I'm sure it wouldn't interest anybody
outside of a small circle of friends." - Phil Ochs

"His photos are saturated with obviousness, mental inertia, clichés and bad jokes." -http://www.500letters.org/form_15.php



I point. I shoot. sometimes, I focus first.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-22-2010   #15
PatrickONeill
Registered User
 
PatrickONeill's Avatar
 
PatrickONeill is offline
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Weatherford, Tx
Age: 36
Posts: 366
he would use an iPhone4 =p
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-22-2010   #16
ramosa
Registered User
 
ramosa is offline
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,014
i cannot see henri changing from film to digital. no way ...
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-23-2010   #17
chrismoret
RF-addict
 
chrismoret's Avatar
 
chrismoret is offline
Join Date: May 2010
Location: approx. 7ft under sea level
Age: 52
Posts: 288
He probably used film. He had no reason to switch, I've understand mr HCB 'outsourced' all his film-processing and printing work. :-)
__________________
Chris.
web
flickr
tumblr

  Reply With Quote

Old 10-29-2010   #18
Neare
Registered User
 
Neare's Avatar
 
Neare is offline
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,588
Has anyone ever tried to teach photoshop to an elderly man?
Doesn't work.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-29-2010   #19
cheva
Registered User
 
cheva is offline
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 5
As far as I know, HCB gave up photography in the 70s and returned to his "first love" which is painting and drawing. Before that he was more interested in the act of taking photos rather than processing and printing work. Therefore I think he would use an M9.

D700? no way.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-30-2010   #20
dave lackey
Registered User
 
dave lackey's Avatar
 
dave lackey is offline
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Posts: 7,916
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neare View Post
Has anyone ever tried to teach photoshop to an elderly man?
Doesn't work.

bull! Not that I am elderly...depends on whom you ask...LOL...
__________________
Peace, Love and Happiness...



Dave

Last edited by dave lackey : 10-30-2010 at 10:40.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-09-2010   #21
jsrockit
Moderator
 
jsrockit's Avatar
 
jsrockit is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: NYC
Age: 43
Posts: 17,558
Perhaps Leica would have given him an M8 or an M9 as a present, but since he was an old man, he would probably stick with what he was comfortable with... film.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-23-2010   #22
Ted2001
Registered User
 
Ted2001 is offline
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 58
He'd try the D700, then trade it for a smaller D90 with 16-85.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-25-2010   #23
funkpilz
Registered User
 
funkpilz is offline
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Berlin.
Posts: 213
Uhm, I thought HCB used a Leica because the Contax, pro camera of the day, was too expensive for him?
__________________
I like taking pictures. Want to see them?
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-25-2010   #24
rbsinto
Registered User
 
rbsinto is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada Thornhill is a suburb of Toronto
Posts: 1,568
Quote:
Originally Posted by bizarrius View Post
Well, all we see around is "i use film because bla bla" and "i use digital because bla bla"
One of many reasons on why people use film is: "i like film because big photographers used it and they didn't need anything more"
yes but they never had digital :S

So...what do you think that HC Bresson would do if he was alive today?
Would he still use film or would he go M9? or even D700?
In my opinion a pointless question.
How would I or anyone else possibly know what HCB would do?
If he was alive, and if he chose a Film camera, so what?
Or, if he was alive, and instead he chose a Digital camera, again, so what?
I think after pondering this question for the Unit of Planck Time that it so richly deserved, that one way or the other, I couldn't care less.

Last edited by rbsinto : 11-25-2010 at 11:21.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-25-2010   #25
JohnTF
Registered User
 
JohnTF's Avatar
 
JohnTF is offline
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Home is Cleveland, Summers often Europe, Winters often Mexico.
Posts: 2,049
It seems as if HCB shot from the hip and passed the film on -- perhaps he would have done the same and passed the SD card on for post processing?

I did read somewhere that there were times when he enjoyed shooting a roll or so with a P&S of some type or another, so I would surmise he had no residing prejudice against current technology.

Besides, I can hardly imagine any of the companies not sending him any sample to test to his liking--

The real question, perhaps, is would he chimp with every exposure or wait for his printer to deliver 11x14's ? ;-)

There is that feeling you get some days when you see and shoot well, knowing which images are really good- at the moment of exposure-- am thinking the better photographers have more of those days than I.

I feel fortunate when I find one of those days and I want equipment that helps me not muck it all up.

Regards, John
__________________
To capture some of this -- I suppose that's lyricism.

Josef Sudek

Last edited by JohnTF : 11-25-2010 at 10:37.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-25-2010   #26
antiquark
Derek Ross
 
antiquark's Avatar
 
antiquark is offline
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 1,469
Didn't HCB dislike using color film? I think he said it was "ridiculous."

If he never got into color film, I can't see him embracing digital.
__________________
flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-26-2010   #27
eddie1960
Registered User
 
eddie1960's Avatar
 
eddie1960 is offline
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by antiquark View Post
Didn't HCB dislike using color film? I think he said it was "ridiculous."

If he never got into color film, I can't see him embracing digital.
he'd have the sway to get a custom b/w filter installed
__________________
The New Stuff
Fuji XE2, 18 2.0, 23 1.4, 35 1.4, 56 1.2, 60 2.4, EF42 Flash, K mount Adapter
Olympus OMD EM10, 14-42, 40-150, 45 1.8 (really a kit for my wife but I imagine I will use it occasionally with a k mount adapter for long lenses and stabilized shots)

The Not Stolen leftovers
Fed 4, industar 61, ,Mamiya Super 23, Bronica etrsi, 4 lenses, Big ass old Metz Handle Flash
K7, 14 2.8, 35 2.4 a bunch of Taks
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-26-2010   #28
ZlatkoBatistich
Registered User
 
ZlatkoBatistich's Avatar
 
ZlatkoBatistich is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 106
There's no way to know, but we can still have fun discussing it. If he were a young man today, he would likely use digital as the speed of digital is now often required for photojournalism. He would likely use an M9, but might also have some other small camera.
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-02-2011   #29
savantcreative
Savantcreative
 
savantcreative is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 7
He would be digital if he was able to learn PhotoShop
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-16-2011   #30
Kiyoshi
Convicted Film Addict.
 
Kiyoshi's Avatar
 
Kiyoshi is offline
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Delirium Tremens!
Posts: 31
this thread is ridiculous.
__________________
Olive Leica M3 SS
Chrome Leica M4
Black Paint Leica M9
FujiFilm TX-1
Sony α7
Flickr
My photo blog
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-17-2011   #31
rolleistef
Registered User
 
rolleistef's Avatar
 
rolleistef is offline
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Paris (France, not Texas!)
Posts: 925
He would keep doing what he was doing since the late 1970s - draw with a pencil.
__________________
Stéphane
Rolleiflex T, Rolleicord Art Déco, sweet Minolta XD5, dead XGM, X300 and X700 ; Hi-Matic F, Hi-Matic 9, Pentax SP1000 and K20D
My Flickr


RFF EuroMeet 2010-Florence !!!
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-10-2011   #32
brandonmsweet
Registered User
 
brandonmsweet is offline
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by rolleistef View Post
He would keep doing what he was doing since the late 1970s - draw with a pencil.
so so true
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-10-2011   #33
erik
Registered User
 
erik's Avatar
 
erik is offline
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Rhode Island USA
Posts: 178
IF he was still alive, IF he had not already given up photography all together. IF he wasn't already HCB and just starting out. Could go anyway you would like to argue it. Consider others who are at similar points in their careers. Lee Friedlander has not switched, why would he? He has a work flow that he has perfected over decades and serves him well. IF he were 25 and had to make a living the answer would be different. But then he would not yet be the master that we now know. I think HCB would scoff at this question.
__________________
my flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-10-2011   #34
wlewisiii
StayAtHome Dad & Photog
 
wlewisiii's Avatar
 
wlewisiii is offline
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Madison, WI
Age: 53
Posts: 5,266
Paint.

William
__________________
My Gallery
My Best Pictures

Playing and learning daily with: 4x5 Crown Graphic, Leica IIIf w/ 50/2 Summitar, Nikon F2 Photomic w/ 50/1.4 & Olympus E-PL1.

"Some people are 'the glass is half full' types. Some people are 'the glass is half empty' types. I'm a 'the glass is full of radioactive waste and I just drank half of it' type. And I'm still thirsty." -- Bill Mattocks
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-21-2011   #35
obama6493
Registered User
 
obama6493 is offline
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by varjag View Post
Uh, he died in 2004, mind you. Digital cameras at this point were widely available, he could use one if he wanted.

Case closed.
None of the above: He'd tell us to stop wasting so much time worrying about what he would do and just go out and take some F'n pictures. Or better yet learn how to paint.
__________________
Watch TV Online
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-02-2011   #36
tom.w.bn
Registered User
 
tom.w.bn is offline
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,620
Either he would paint or he would use a modern camcorder.
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-03-2011   #37
ramosa
Registered User
 
ramosa is offline
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mcary View Post
None of the above: He'd tell us to stop wasting so much time worrying about what he would do and just go out and take some F'n pictures. Or better yet learn how to paint.
Full agreement here
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-03-2011   #38
dave lackey
Registered User
 
dave lackey's Avatar
 
dave lackey is offline
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Posts: 7,916
HCB did not care about image quality? First time anyone has ever said that and it is incorrect.

How many times have I seen a video of Bresson making sure his prints were just so before he signed them? Maybe there is a difference in describing image quality here?
__________________
Peace, Love and Happiness...



Dave
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-12-2011   #39
TaoPhoto
Documentary Photographer
 
TaoPhoto's Avatar
 
TaoPhoto is offline
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Falls Church, VA
Posts: 104
I couldn't choose one of the poll choices, as they simply don't offer enough breadth. There is no reason to assume that HCB wouldn't choose SLR's over RF's, another brand over Leica, some kinds of digital over some kinds of film. In his day, choices were more limited, and he choose tools from what was available to him. With today's much broader choices, who knows? If he were starting today he might choose a digital P&S. I don't get the impression that he credits the camera, per se, for his successes.

This obsession with hardware does us a disservice. If any one of us took thousands of pictures every year, for a decade or so, with nothing but a Brownie and Tri-X, we'd begin to produce some amazing results. There is something to be said for really, really knowing your tools, for all their strengths and flaws. The master woodcarver does not spend his days on the 'net lusting after better chisels. Choose good tools, know your tools, master your tools. It's a very old progression that gets one from apprentice to journeyman to master.
__________________
- Norm

Main shooters: Leica M8, D-Lux 4, OM-1n, Zorki 4K
  Reply With Quote

Old 06-20-2011   #40
dallard
Registered User
 
dallard's Avatar
 
dallard is offline
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 285
If a pig sprouts wings, how far can it fly?
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 13:00.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.