Go Back   Rangefinderforum.com > Cameras / Gear / Photography > Rangefinder Forum > Optics Theory -

Optics Theory - This forum is aimed towards the TECHNICAL side of photographic OPTICS THEORY. There will be some overlap by camera/manufacturer, but this forum is for the heavy duty tech discussions. This is NOT the place to discuss a specific lens or lens line, do that in the appropriate forum. This is the forum to discuss optics or lenses in general, to learn about the tech behind the lenses and images. IF you have a question about a specific lens, post it in the forum about that type of camera, NOT HERE.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes

The ultimate Bokeh thread; pics please
Old 11-26-2007   #1
ferider
Registered User
 
ferider's Avatar
 
ferider is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 11,126
The ultimate Bokeh thread; pics please

Don't blame it on me, blame it on John, this thread was his idea

Quality of bokeh is clearly subjective - heck, even my perception has changed.
I used to search for "donuts" and "footballs" in the background of a shallow
DOF picture.

These days, I care less about that, and look at the 3d rendering that I feel
a lens provides.

So, please post example pictures, of what you think is good and bad bokeh,
which lens at which aperture you used, and why you like/dislike the lens'
OOF performance.

I'll start (the pic that triggered this):



Summicron-C 40/2 wide open at min. distance. This is the Wayfarer's
chappel in LA, architected by F.L. Wright Jr. Even though there are
slight donuts and double lines in the background, I like what I feel is
a superb 3D quality to the way the lens rendered this picture.

In my experience the 35/2 and 40/1.4 behave similarly. Or do they ?

More please. Thanks,

Roland.

Last edited by ferider : 11-26-2007 at 10:30.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-26-2007   #2
foto_fool
Registered User
 
foto_fool is offline
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 733
Roland - Now that you put it that way (dimensional rendering) I agree. The bokeh in the chapel shot is distracting, but the candle does really jump out of the frame.

I'll see you and raise you the 35mm Konica 35/2 UC-Hexanon (on R-D1):


(posted before).

The low angle lighting from the right of your frame contributes to the dimensionality of your shot. The coffeecup was lit from the right and from behind me. For me the geometric regularity of the OOF in my shot decreases my negative perception of the double lines - which in any case are relatively soft.

- John
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-26-2007   #3
ferider
Registered User
 
ferider's Avatar
 
ferider is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 11,126
John, thanks. What your picture also shows in my mind is that the type
of background and cropping is very important. I've seen double
lines created with the UC hex, and created them with my Hexar AF myself ....

Roland.

Last edited by ferider : 11-26-2007 at 11:01.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-26-2007   #4
foto_fool
Registered User
 
foto_fool is offline
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 733
Cute couple but I completely agree about the footballs. Here's a series of shots with the ZM Sonnar C shot wide open (R-D1 again):


OOF on the ceiling (no highlights) is pleasing to me. OOF on the trees outside the window is not bad - because of distance?


The higlights behind the subjects are interesting - how do you describe this effect? In this shot it adds an element of humor for me.


Same venue as the prior shot - same lights. Completely different look. Pleasing - not distracting.

- John
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-26-2007   #5
Todd.Hanz
Registered User
 
Todd.Hanz's Avatar
 
Todd.Hanz is offline
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Texas
Age: 52
Posts: 4,190
...in the mean time...

good bokeh:

Nikkor 105/2.5 MF on D200




VC 75/2.5


Leica 50/1.4 Summilux (E-46 version)


bokeh not so good:

Nikkor 50/1.2


Todd
  Reply With Quote

Non-RF
Old 11-26-2007   #6
Uwe_Nds
Chief Assistant Driver
 
Uwe_Nds's Avatar
 
Uwe_Nds is offline
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Hameln, Germany
Posts: 815
Non-RF

Good bokeh:
Pentax 77/1.8


Not so nice bokeh:
Pentax 50/1.7 A

Attached Images
File Type: jpg Ania-0083-2_web.jpg (161.6 KB, 10868 views)
File Type: jpg Scan-071109-0003_web.jpg (196.8 KB, 10793 views)
__________________
The future is unwritten.


My photos on RFF


Project Sunshine

My website

  Reply With Quote

Old 11-26-2007   #7
Mr_Flibble
Registered User
 
Mr_Flibble's Avatar
 
Mr_Flibble is offline
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Lowlands
Age: 40
Posts: 3,630
Posted this pic somewhere before......


Elmar 90/4 on my Leica IIIa
__________________
Rick - In Tabulas Argenteas Refero
Loaded with film: Leica I

Latest Toys: Seagull 203
Latest Activity: Ciney Militaria Fair
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-26-2007   #8
steverett
Anthopomorphized Camera
 
steverett's Avatar
 
steverett is offline
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Age: 30
Posts: 235
Both with a Canon 7:


Canon 85/2 on Velvia


Canon 50/1.8 on FP4+
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-26-2007   #9
brachal
Refrigerated User
 
brachal's Avatar
 
brachal is offline
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New Orleans, La
Age: 48
Posts: 1,021
I like this bokeh. Bessa R, Jupiter 8 @f/2
Attached Images
File Type: jpg orchid2.JPG (75.5 KB, 844 views)
__________________
Bill

My Gallery

Me on flickr

"Living in fear is just another way of dying before your time." DBT
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-26-2007   #10
Bryce
Registered User
 
Bryce's Avatar
 
Bryce is offline
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,041
Can't remember if I posted this here before or not... If so it would've been a long time back.
Anyway, I did an experiment. What do you all think?
I'll come clean with the details in awhile.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg catvision1.jpg (63.8 KB, 420 views)
__________________
My Gallery
  Reply With Quote

Bokeh!
Old 11-26-2007   #11
Pakmanpdx
Registered User
 
Pakmanpdx's Avatar
 
Pakmanpdx is offline
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Portland Oregon
Posts: 21
Bokeh!

Here's the Hektor 73mm on my IIIa. As Homer would say....mmm...Donuts! This was probably at f 2.2 although it was summertime in open shade. the background is a large bush with sunlight falling on it about 10 feet behind my daughter.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 11900021.jpg (107.2 KB, 629 views)

Last edited by Pakmanpdx : 11-26-2007 at 20:24.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-26-2007   #12
dlove5
Registered User
 
dlove5's Avatar
 
dlove5 is offline
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Somewhere in Kansas
Age: 59
Posts: 178
135 Elmarit @ f8 - I think. Mounted on IIIg + Viso II and extension ring

135ElmaritFlowerbos.jpg
__________________
Regards, David

Leica IIIa,IIIf,IIIg,M2M,M3
Pentax K10D, SPII, Me Super
Canon AE1, AE1 Program
Fujika AZ-1
Yashica J-5
Olympus EP-2
and way too much Visoflex stuff

Last edited by dlove5 : 11-26-2007 at 22:07.
  Reply With Quote

Minolta Rokkors should not be missing in a bokeh thread ;-)
Old 11-26-2007   #13
lapinot
Registered User
 
lapinot is offline
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 3
Minolta Rokkors should not be missing in a bokeh thread ;-)

Me too, me too: Minolta MC Rokkor 85/1.7 @ 1.7, Minolta X-500, Agfa APX 100
I really like the buttery-smooth bokeh of this lens
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Bokeh.jpg (115.0 KB, 418 views)
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-27-2007   #14
Abbazz
6x9 and be there!
 
Abbazz's Avatar
 
Abbazz is offline
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Karori (Aotearoa)
Posts: 707
My favorite of the moment (Porst/Tomioka 55/1.2):







Cheers,

Abbazz
__________________
Il n'y a rien dans le monde qui n'ait son moment décisif, et le chef-d'œuvre de la bonne conduite est de connaître et de prendre ce moment. - Cardinal de Retz

The 6x9 Photography Online Resource

  Reply With Quote

Old 11-27-2007   #15
kmack
do your job, then let go
 
kmack is offline
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,057
A little Beer with a Jupiter 8 on a Kiev II
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-27-2007   #16
Registered User
 
[email protected] is offline
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 92


http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1115/...8771b4a2_b.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/205/4...4bd6aa8d_b.jpg

M8 with MM-Hexanon 50.http://farm1.static.flickr.com/205/4...4bd6aa8d_b.jpg
__________________
Rolleiflex, Hexar RF, M8, Yashica GSN, Olympus OM 1, 2 and 4, Olympus XA, Canon 20D, Yashica Mat, Holga.

http://howardwfrench.net/
howardwfrench.com

Last edited by [email protected] : 11-27-2007 at 05:02.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-27-2007   #17
delft
Registered User
 
delft's Avatar
 
delft is offline
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 175
If all is well (i don't see it in the preview...), attached is a bokeh-ish image with the CV 40mm SC wide open. The highlights at the bottom are from parked bicycles.

Dirk
Attached Images
File Type: jpg bikeh.jpg (88.1 KB, 356 views)
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-27-2007   #18
keithwms
Registered User
 
keithwms is offline
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Virginia USA
Posts: 184
Can MF/LF shooters play along?

A few shots from a cambo, a horseman VH, and an rb67.

What do these three have in common? They were all shot at f/8
Attached Images
File Type: jpg orchid_pola1.jpg (91.9 KB, 247 views)
File Type: jpg mcello2.jpg (171.5 KB, 222 views)
File Type: jpg rrt001.jpg (191.9 KB, 492 views)
__________________
Keith

keithwilliamsphoto.net
My RFF Gallery, and my APUG portfolio.
Lightcafe, a site for in-depth photo critique and discussion.

Last edited by keithwms : 11-27-2007 at 11:50.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-27-2007   #19
titrisol
Bottom Feeder
 
titrisol's Avatar
 
titrisol is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Location: RDU / Quito / LaLa Land
Age: 46
Posts: 1,318
Good Bouquet?

Super-Takumar 50/1.4 at 1.4
__________________
When I think back of all the crappy pictures I've taken, it's a wonder I can see at all......
APX It gives us the nicer grays/It gives the cleanes whites/Makes you think all the world’s a sunny day, oh yeah/I got a nikon camera/I love to take a photograph
MAMA DON'T TAKE MY APX AWAY........
Sorry Paul Simon


My gallery

Last edited by titrisol : 11-27-2007 at 22:59.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-27-2007   #20
ltketch
Registered User
 
ltketch's Avatar
 
ltketch is offline
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: 37°50'9"S 145°13'21"E
Posts: 114
Heres some from me, dust from the scanner included!

Minolta MC 50/1.4 wide open, XD-7, Reala.

Got the lens the same day in the mail, just wanted to see what would hapen when wide open! Not the easiest shot as there was a breeze and everything was moving! not overly pleased with the more obvious donuts to the upper right!






Minolta MD 50/1.7, XD-7, FP4, unknown aperture but it was during the middle of the day so probably not wide open, but more dust First proper B&W film in over 20 years so wasn't trying for any effects, just wanted to test the XD-7 which had then recently come into my possesion!



Last edited by ltketch : 11-27-2007 at 15:14.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-27-2007   #21
foto_fool
Registered User
 
foto_fool is offline
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 733
Some comments: 1) I like where this thread is going . 2) When you add pics, PLEASE tell everyone what lens/aperture/film/body you used, if you can recall. 3) Let's do more than just display bokeh - please describe what and why you like or dislike, and whay you think you got the result you did - some are and it keeps it interesting.

Some observations: 1) Ned's first post - where the whole thing is a bit OOF but the real OOF element that balances the pic is someone's sleeve (maybe?) in the foreground - got me thinking about whether and how lenses render foreground OOF different from background OOF. I can't recall seeing circles or donuts from OOF foreground highlights. But then I don't think I've seen many (any) shots that HAVE OOF foreground highlights - verboten in our brains? 2) My earlier comment about geometric regularity in the background helping smooth double-line bokeh - clearly refuted by Todd's last shot of the antique car - man, that's odd-looking. 3) keithwms - thanks for posting the LF shots at f8 - good to see subject isolation in something that is not shot at f1-2. 4) Swirly bokeh may be sometimes hard to look at, but it really does seem to go hand-in-glove with enhanced 3D rendering of the in-focus elements. 4) Is it just me, or does it look to others as though the Sonnar-design lenses are more prone than others to circle bokeh in background highlights?

- John
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-27-2007   #22
ferider
Registered User
 
ferider's Avatar
 
ferider is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 11,126
Thanks for all the pictures everybody. Abbazz, this second shot of yours is about the best shallow DOF application that I have seen so far !!!

John,

Quote:
Originally Posted by foto_fool
: : :
1) .... I can't recall seeing circles or donuts from OOF foreground highlights. But then I don't think I've seen many (any) shots that HAVE OOF foreground highlights - verboten in our brains?
4) Swirly bokeh may be sometimes hard to look at, but it really does seem to go hand-in-glove with enhanced 3D rendering of the in-focus elements.
5) Is it just me, or does it look to others as though the Sonnar-design lenses are more prone than others to circle bokeh in background highlights?
: : :
- John
4) I agree with that one.
5) Not sure. Some do and some don't. The Nikkor 50/1.4, 80/2 and Canon 50/1.5 do wide open, in my experience, the Nikkor 105/2.5 and the C-Sonnar do not. I think it has to do which how much they have been optimized for resolution.
1) These type of shots are very rare, indeed. There was a thread about this on RFF a while back. Here is an example with foreground OOF, same Canon lens as used in my bad bokeh example above, but producing really nice foreground OOF:



I find "bad bokeh" more distracting in portraits, in general.

Here is another "good bokeh" example, that I simply like because I like
the subject Tele Elmarit wide open (M body with color negative,
don't remember which film):



Please keep the examples coming. And do remember to
include lens/aperture/film/body information.

Best,

Roland.

Last edited by ferider : 11-27-2007 at 17:21.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-27-2007   #23
monochromejrnl
Registered User
 
monochromejrnl is offline
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Toronto, ON Canada
Posts: 824


Zeiss-opton 50/1.5 Sonnar, Kodak Gold 100 @ f1.5, 1/25th sec
__________________
here is the dilemma and the strength of photography... it is the easiest medium in which to be competent, but it is the hardest medium in which to have a personal vision that is readily identifiable... Chuck Close

we search for truth, sometimes we find beauty - Lisette Model
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-27-2007   #24
bankcheck
Registered User
 
bankcheck is offline
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 53
Noct + R-D1
Attached Images
File Type: jpg jupitar.jpg (117.5 KB, 147 views)
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-27-2007   #25
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
 
dcsang's Avatar
 
dcsang is offline
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Toronto Canada
Age: 51
Posts: 4,707
Zeiss Biogon @ f2.0 (finally an RF image huh..)


Dave
__________________
I own a Leica and I am NOT a dentist (I don't even portray one on TV!!!)

I have an idea what I'm looking for but it only becomes real once I see it - Constantine Manos

ITS THE MAGIC I SEE IN THE Light, Texture, & Tone
that Intoxicates Me - Helen Hill

My Flickr - it's where I post my RF and P&S shtuff
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-27-2007   #26
jja
Registered User
 
jja is offline
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 540
Dave, I missed the bokeh part of your photos b/c the eyes of every one of your subjects were so beautifully captured. Great work.
__________________
My Flickr

My RFF Gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-27-2007   #27
foto_fool
Registered User
 
foto_fool is offline
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 733
Roland - the swirly bokeh thing - is it a chicken and egg question? Do lenses that make swirly bokeh intrinsically render more dimensionality, or is it how we percieve the swirly that creates an illusion of 3D?

Thanks for the front OOF example. Here is my contribution (this was deliberate believe it or not):

ZM Sonnar C on R-D1 @f2.0. The highlights in my friend's glasses are really all I have to show, but they do seem smoother to me than background OOF with this lens.

Your second good bokeh example looks like Romanoff royalty .

Gabriel - I like the hanging basket shot. It shows distracting (to me) bokeh in the trees, but then goes to the idea that the geometric regularity of the bricks seems to soften the effect. The Summilux shot - circles and footballs? I'm comparing this one to Maddoc's shots and it looks to me like the harsh bokeh effect is more pronounced when the lighting in the background is greater than that on the in-focus subjects. Dave's 4th shot seems show the opposite effect.

- John
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-27-2007   #28
Bryce
Registered User
 
Bryce's Avatar
 
Bryce is offline
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,041
Back in post 19, I attached an image which I can't re-post.
Here's the story. I for some reason a year or two ago wondered how the world would look through a lens with a very non circular iris... like a cat's eye.
So I tried it. I made a cardboard iris with a slit like a cat's pupil, and attached it to the front of an 85mm F/2 lens. The slit was about 3 mm wide at the middle, and about 40 mm tall.
The lens was an m42 version Jupiter 9 attached to a Pentax dslr.
__________________
My Gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-27-2007   #29
foto_fool
Registered User
 
foto_fool is offline
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 733
Bryce - cool experiment and I love the image - very beautiful OOF. I'm no whiz at optics but AFAIK the aperture needs to be behind the front element at least - you have done something, but I don't think you captured the reality of a cat's vision. Might be worth taking a lens apart...

Digitalintrigue - FINALLY someone posts a shot with "the king"!

- John
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-27-2007   #30
Rico
Registered User
 
Rico's Avatar
 
Rico is offline
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 924
Here's an old demo of fg/bg bokeh. Lens is the exotic Zeiss Aposonnar 200/2 C/Y, wide open, minimum focus, mounted to a Canon DSLR (classic D30).


__________________

Rico Tudor. Leica M4, IIIb, 28, 35, 50, 90, 135, 280. Contax T, RTS; Canon; Nikon; Profoto
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-27-2007   #31
Abbazz
6x9 and be there!
 
Abbazz's Avatar
 
Abbazz is offline
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Karori (Aotearoa)
Posts: 707
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferider
Abbazz, this second shot of yours is about the best shallow DOF application that I have seen so far !!!
Thanks, Roland. As all 3 pictures were taken wide open at f/1.2, DOF was pretty thin indeed.

Cheers,

Abbazz
__________________
Il n'y a rien dans le monde qui n'ait son moment décisif, et le chef-d'œuvre de la bonne conduite est de connaître et de prendre ce moment. - Cardinal de Retz

The 6x9 Photography Online Resource

  Reply With Quote

Old 11-28-2007   #32
kevin m
Registered User
 
kevin m is offline
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 2,201
Dave, those were nice! The more I see of that Biogon 35 the more impressed I am. It seems to have all the good attributes of the pre-asph Leica lenses all the way down to f2.0...pretty cool!
  Reply With Quote

summicron M 50
Old 11-28-2007   #33
mauro scacco
Registered User
 
mauro scacco's Avatar
 
mauro scacco is offline
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 149
summicron M 50

__________________
http://mauroscacco.weebly.com/

Last edited by mauro scacco : 11-28-2007 at 06:21.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-28-2007   #34
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
 
dcsang's Avatar
 
dcsang is offline
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Toronto Canada
Age: 51
Posts: 4,707
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin m
Dave, those were nice! The more I see of that Biogon 35 the more impressed I am. It seems to have all the good attributes of the pre-asph Leica lenses all the way down to f2.0...pretty cool!
Thanks Kev.

I've got Cindy Flood's ASPH cron waiting for me somewhere in Canada Posts coffers - hopefully *crosses fingers* I'll get it today.
I plan on doing a comparison b/w the ASPH and the ZM 35 - for the money's sake, I hope the ZM wins out but hey... who knows

Dave
__________________
I own a Leica and I am NOT a dentist (I don't even portray one on TV!!!)

I have an idea what I'm looking for but it only becomes real once I see it - Constantine Manos

ITS THE MAGIC I SEE IN THE Light, Texture, & Tone
that Intoxicates Me - Helen Hill

My Flickr - it's where I post my RF and P&S shtuff
  Reply With Quote

summicron 90
Old 11-28-2007   #35
mauro scacco
Registered User
 
mauro scacco's Avatar
 
mauro scacco is offline
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 149
summicron 90

__________________
http://mauroscacco.weebly.com/
  Reply With Quote

contax sonnar f 1,5
Old 11-28-2007   #36
mauro scacco
Registered User
 
mauro scacco's Avatar
 
mauro scacco is offline
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 149
contax sonnar f 1,5

__________________
http://mauroscacco.weebly.com/
  Reply With Quote

Nikon D70 + old Nikkor-S 55/1.2 lens
Old 11-28-2007   #37
chambrenoire
Registered User
 
chambrenoire's Avatar
 
chambrenoire is offline
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 630
Nikon D70 + old Nikkor-S 55/1.2 lens


Mom

Greens
__________________
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-28-2007   #38
NB23
-
 
NB23's Avatar
 
NB23 is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Inside a Noctilux
Posts: 1,437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriel M.A.
Wow, Rico; that's a mighty cool lens. 200mm f/2 oh yeah.

Alright, since nobody's really caring for off-screen display and download-choking for others, I'll post some large photos too:
Gabriel,


You're always making it a point to make a point about how people are posting large images so you decide to post large ones too so you can choke all the computers.

I don't see large images. They are all about 500x700 72dpi... which is very small.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-28-2007   #39
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
 
dcsang's Avatar
 
dcsang is offline
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Toronto Canada
Age: 51
Posts: 4,707
Images that are 500x700 @ 72dpi (and as long as they were saved properly) can be pretty small....I've got a 600x900 pixel image that's only 68kb.

That said, I think Gabe is talking about dimensions and depending on your screen size.. a 600x900 image can be huge

I still try to ensure my website is available to those with 800x600 resolution...

Dave
__________________
I own a Leica and I am NOT a dentist (I don't even portray one on TV!!!)

I have an idea what I'm looking for but it only becomes real once I see it - Constantine Manos

ITS THE MAGIC I SEE IN THE Light, Texture, & Tone
that Intoxicates Me - Helen Hill

My Flickr - it's where I post my RF and P&S shtuff
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-28-2007   #40
ferider
Registered User
 
ferider's Avatar
 
ferider is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 11,126
Halloween bokeh, kind of ugly if you ask me:



Canon 50/1.2, probably Superia 400.

Roland.
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:21.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.