Old 01-10-2017   #41
David Hughes
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Hi,

Worst of all is when it does something totally unexpected and you spend a week or so trying to sort it out...

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Old 01-10-2017   #42
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I shot an M4-P for many years.

The first shot I took on my M9 my thumb reached for the film advance.

I knew I'd found my digital camera.

The rendering of the CCD sensor is really nice. The camera is slightly thicker and feels heavier. The only reason to use the menu system is to set the ISO (dedicated button combined with arrow).

I haven't touched my M4-P in a long time.

It helps that I was already moving away from black and white to color for the majority of my photography.

Lately I've started playing with Capture One and find it renders the M9's raw files very nicely.

I bought a Fuji XE2 because I wanted a lighter camera for a backpacking trip in the Andes. I fought with it the entire time. Although I like color rendering of Fuji's jpegs (i shoot the M9 RAW), it felt much more like taking photos with a computer than a camera. Sold it quickly. The images, when I got it to stop exposing incorrectly, were lovely but getting them was not.
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Old 01-10-2017   #43
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Hi,

Can't comment on the Fuji but I've noticed that - in the long term - I've sold all my complicated cameras, as the system's menus* get in the way, and kept the straight forward ones. Even to the point where I still have and use an elderly Leica Digilux 2, which is 5 megapixels and ought to be scrapped according to some...

So my votes for the M series.

Regards, David

* Why do they shove so much into the menus? Lots of film cameras survived and became classics with just the simplest of controls (Olympus XA or Konica A4 or Leica mini) or hardly any (Olympus mju's). A simple P&S digital with a decent prime lens would be great and please don't tell me there's one as I can't afford it.
There is quite a lot more to a digital camera than a manual film camera, if menus bother you buy a top end canon or nikon and you will find once the camera is set up you hardly need to go into menus.
Cameras like
Canon t90
Nikon F4
Konica Hexar AF
Without reading the manual have features that are really well hidden, I must admit the fuji x100 can be very frustrating with so many features and options!
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Old 01-10-2017   #44
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I, too, don't understand how menu systems is one of the reasons a camera is kept or let go. If the simplicity of classic film camera is a must, one can simply shoot in manual, and ignore all other extra features modern digital cameras offer.
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Old 01-10-2017   #45
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I, too, don't understand how menu systems is one of the reasons a camera is kept or let go. If the simplicity of classic film camera is a must, one can simply shoot in manual, and ignore all other extra features modern digital cameras offer.
Completely agree, however, many of today's digital cameras do not have a complete set of external controls to operate the camera manually. I'm not familiar with the Fuji Pro series but it would seem to me the Leica M9 would come closest to having full external manual controls with the exception of ISO.
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Old 01-11-2017   #46
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I think if something like

Double overhead highlight retentive face tracking predictive auto focus mode (!! Yes i made that up ) is important to a user, then they'll learn how to set it up and quickly know where to find it in the menu

If it's not, just don't use or worry about it

If one isn't fussed about about having a optical VF (and i very much am personally) then a camera like Fuji's XT1/2 has ISO, SS, Aperture, EV, Metering and Drive modes all available from dedicated dials on the top plate. Not only do you not need to menu dive to change those things, but you can even see what they're set too without turning the camera on.

Sure there's a boat load of stuff spread across several menu pages, but those dials on the top are pretty much all one needs for a simplistic experience, so the menu is not a place you have to go too, unless you want to.

My X-Pro2 has a ton of stuff (like AF modes, face detection) that I never use, and don't care about. But their existence within my camera's menu is not abhorrent to me
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Old 01-11-2017   #47
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Well, um, er, I've been using digital SLR's from the mid to late 90's and every now and then one of them would do something unexpected, behave differently and, sometimes, a new to me weird icon would appear on screen.

So although in theory they can be set up and left alone, in practice they irritate now and then. Bitter experience (based on 20 years experience) means I never fiddle with the things but it still happens. The M9 or Digilux-2 are best of all but neither are what I'd stick in my pocket everyday when taking the family dogs for a walk. As for the worst, well, I am looking at the X100 but saying nowt...

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Old 01-11-2017   #48
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I think every camera has given at least one user a horror story at some stage
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Old 01-11-2017   #49
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Quote:
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But the M9 feels very heavy to me. It might be worth looking at the weights if hauling it (and film) around is a problem. Also, I sometimes think the M9 is not very forgiving, for want of a better word.

Regards, David
Just curious, since I agree with David: Can someone explain why my M9 feels heavier than my M6 when, according to wikipedia, both cameras are specified at 585 grams? In fact the M9 is supposed to be 585g with battery, whereas I'm not sure if the M6 figure includes a roll of film.

Has anyone here actually weighed a M9+card+battery vs the M6+film?

(Fingers crossed for a M6TTL-size and -weight M10 next week. Yes I'm one of _them_)
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Old 01-11-2017   #50
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I currently only shoot M9/M6, can confirm M9 feels heavier according to my hands... Things might change once I get a thumbs up for the M9 since I tend to hold the M6 with the film advance lever.

M9 also feels more like a brick due to its fatter/thicker body.
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Old 01-11-2017   #51
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Hi,

That is a relief as I was wondering why it feels heavier but comes in at about the same weight as the film ones. I doubt if we'll ever know why but it's nice to feel I'm not alone.

Regards, David
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Old 01-11-2017   #52
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I have DSLR which has a lot of menus, yet, I set many things with controls, without menus, screen. But. M9 (M-E in my case) total absence of advanced and deep menus, absence of extra dials and exactly the same bottom plate, very similar frame lines makes it feel as the closest to film M.
Fuji X, Leica M240 don't have this feel. For some it is not important. For me it is main reason why I want to look and feel camera in my hands. Not as advanced image taking tool, but simple, classic Leica M camera.
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Old 01-12-2017   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xixi_gelly View Post
Just curious, since I agree with David: Can someone explain why my M9 feels heavier than my M6 when, according to wikipedia, both cameras are specified at 585 grams? In fact the M9 is supposed to be 585g with battery, whereas I'm not sure if the M6 figure includes a roll of film.

Has anyone here actually weighed a M9+card+battery vs the M6+film?

(Fingers crossed for a M6TTL-size and -weight M10 next week. Yes I'm one of _them_)
I think it has to do with visual impressions and expectations. The M9 looks bigger and heavier, so one tends to perceive it that way. One of my psychology professors was experimenting with what he called "visual capture," the tendency for the eyes to overrule the other senses. He made a device that caused a perfectly straight bar to appear bent. When you touched it, it felt bent.

When you look at an M9, it looks heavy, so that's how we experience it. And if the lack of a winding lever makes it feel more awkward in the hand, that could contribute to the impression as well.
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Old 01-12-2017   #54
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Hi,

Been thinking about it;

Digital
most of the time I use a small camera for casual shooting. So no great weight, about 200 to 230 g. and then for serious stuff out comes the M9 or some dSLR. So after the little toy the M9 feels heavy at twice the weight and so does the SLR at 3 times the weight.

Film
A cassette is 24 or 36 frames and so I am using it for longer and get used to the weight of the M2. Unlike the digital I don't take 2 or 3 shots and then put it away and go back to the small one because the film has to be finished.

Hope that makes sense.

Regards, David
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Old 01-12-2017   #55
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An m9 is really not that heavy and the important thing is with a 35mm summicron it's nice and compact, and the great thing is it can be worn under a jacket in all weathers unlike a dslr!
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Old 01-12-2017   #56
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The M9 is simpler than the M6.

No film to load or mess with after.

You can put the M9 on "A", and shoot all day with only two things to do: pick an aperture, and focus.

And most of the time it works fine. If you do need to fix ISO or shutter, both are very easy and fast.

It is the simplest high end camera ever made. That's why they are still worth so much
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Old 01-12-2017   #57
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That's fascinating, Rob. Thanks very much for teaching me something new today.

And yes, to the poster who mentioned the 35mm summicron. I think it's the weight of the 35/2 v4, not even so much its "bokeh" rep, that makes it so in demand and keeps its value. Perfect balance on film M's


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob-F View Post
I think it has to do with visual impressions and expectations. The M9 looks bigger and heavier, so one tends to perceive it that way. One of my psychology professors was experimenting with what he called "visual capture," the tendency for the eyes to overrule the other senses. He made a device that caused a perfectly straight bar to appear bent. When you touched it, it felt bent.

When you look at an M9, it looks heavy, so that's how we experience it. And if the lack of a winding lever makes it feel more awkward in the hand, that could contribute to the impression as well.
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Old 01-13-2017   #58
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An m9 is really not that heavy and the important thing is with a 35mm summicron it's nice and compact, and the great thing is it can be worn under a jacket in all weathers unlike a dslr!
Hi,

This is a new use of the word 'compact' that I did not know. I am seeing my FED 4 in a new light...

Regards, David

PS But how can I describe my Olympus XA now?
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Old 01-13-2017   #59
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Hi,

It would be nice if I could set up (say) the X100 my way and then save the settings to the SD card, meaning independent of the camera as I could then store it in the computer, and even get a print out of all my settings.

As it is I am planning, when I finally get there, to sit down and write a long, long list of my settings. This is not a problem I have with the M9 or Digilux 2 or mobile.

Regards, David
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Old 01-13-2017   #60
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I often read these threads with interest. OPs ask about cameras and comparisons with other gear. Few ask these questions in the context of other gear that they may have 'on the go'. Sometimes it is more useful to consider the whole picture and then discuss the elements within.

Apart from stuff in boxes (OK, I collect) I have an aged diginasty under the seat of the car, an M6TTL that only comes out now for high days and holidays and a Nex 6 with a few M and even R lenses that gets the most use. As yet, no smart phone but that would replace the diginasty.

What am I saying? Only that it it often helps to look at the thing as a whole and not get hung up on any particular piece of kit and its shortcomings/advantages. Think toolbox.
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Old 01-13-2017   #61
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Quote:
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Hi,

It would be nice if I could set up (say) the X100 my way and then save the settings to the SD card, meaning independent of the camera as I could then store it in the computer, and even get a print out of all my settings.
The inability to save all settings to an SD card is silly and inexplicable. I suspect some brands support this.

It would not be a significant cost to implement full menu parameter back up automatically via WiFi capable cameras.

The good news is Fujifilm firmware updates (probably moot for the X100) no longer overwrite your menu settings.

I took iPhone photos of my X100 LCD screen for each menu screen to record settings.

Somewhere on the internet an Excel sheet can be downloaded for entering and notating menus settings for the X100. I would find the link but all links to this source were censored from my previous posts and private RFF messages. So you will have to use Google
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Old 01-13-2017   #62
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Without intent to offend, and regardless the specific camera, just a thought... when I read "the menu systems and settings really confusing" this always brings a question in my head: what can be so confusing about the menu? You go over it couple times, assign the customizable buttons to the main functions that you need and just move on, IMHO. What else can be there? Especially since modern cameras allow you one or more custom sets saved... Just set it and forget it...
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Old 01-13-2017   #63
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Originally Posted by David Hughes View Post
Hi,

It would be nice if I could set up (say) the X100 my way and then save the settings to the SD card, meaning independent of the camera as I could then store it in the computer, and even get a print out of all my settings.

As it is I am planning, when I finally get there, to sit down and write a long, long list of my settings. This is not a problem I have with the M9 or Digilux 2 or mobile.

Regards, David
Thats what I've been doing for years every time get new work cameras (Canons) only need to setup one how I like it, copy the setting onto memory card stick it in the other, also it means if you organised you can keep a memory card in your bag with all your settings just-in-case you have to do a factory reset.
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Old 01-13-2017   #64
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Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
I have DSLR which has a lot of menus, yet, I set many things with controls, without menus, screen. But. M9 (M-E in my case) total absence of advanced and deep menus, absence of extra dials and exactly the same bottom plate, very similar frame lines makes it feel as the closest to film M.
Fuji X, Leica M240 don't have this feel. For some it is not important. For me it is main reason why I want to look and feel camera in my hands. Not as advanced image taking tool, but simple, classic Leica M camera.
I must be insensitive. The M9 and M240 feel exactly the same to me...
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Old 01-13-2017   #65
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I'm so fortunate that I can memorise all my Fuji menu settings requirements.

It is only a handful of things though.

sincerely, I'm not trying to be snarky with this next bit,

But google is great for these things, type something like 'x-pro2 shoot without lens setting' and you're quickly directed onto post #114 (or whatever) of the DPR forum thread that is running where people are complaining about finding this setting and you can just harvest the info

I suspect the trick is not trying to remember WHERE the settings you want are, but WHAT the settings you want are

But that's just the way I look at it
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Old 01-13-2017   #66
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Without intent to offend, and regardless the specific camera, just a thought... when I read "the menu systems and settings really confusing" this always brings a question in my head: what can be so confusing about the menu? You go over it couple times, assign the customizable buttons to the main functions that you need and just move on, IMHO. What else can be there? Especially since modern cameras allow you one or more custom sets saved... Just set it and forget it...
Hi,

Agreed, you set it up and forget it and then, one day you find the things doing something odd, and regardless of your plans you have to go through everything and try and remember what it should be. That can be a pita months later and in a muddy field without the manual. I don't think, or rather I hope, I'm not the only one to suffer this way.

Edit a bit later: for decades I've been using film and that sets the output (B&W or colour) and ASA/ISO for the next 36 shots. Then all I played around with was the shutter speed, aperture and focus. And I could change the lens on some cameras and on some I had zone focusing (thinking of the Olympus XA2). Digital is so extremely variable that it takes a lot of the pleasure out of it... I like to feel it is all my own work, to coin a phrase. ;-)

One day I'll sit down and work out all the factors and variations available, there's probably hundreds. And they are not all obvious.

BTW, no offence taken, always interesting to hear everyone's views and I don't expect everyone to agree with me.

Regards, David
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Old 01-14-2017   #67
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I understand the concept below, but my experience is usually just the opposite. Often, when two objects of different size objectively weigh the same, the larger one feels lighter because it exerts less force per square inch on your hands, or put another way, our nerves are sensitive to density. So the perceptions reported here continue to be interesting.

Giorgio


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob-F View Post
I think it has to do with visual impressions and expectations. The M9 looks bigger and heavier, so one tends to perceive it that way. One of my psychology professors was experimenting with what he called "visual capture," the tendency for the eyes to overrule the other senses. He made a device that caused a perfectly straight bar to appear bent. When you touched it, it felt bent.

When you look at an M9, it looks heavy, so that's how we experience it. And if the lack of a winding lever makes it feel more awkward in the hand, that could contribute to the impression as well.
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Old 01-14-2017   #68
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Originally Posted by David Hughes View Post
Hi,

This is a new use of the word 'compact' that I did not know. I am seeing my FED 4 in a new light...

Regards, David

PS But how can I describe my Olympus XA now?
Super-compact.

Giorgio
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Old 01-14-2017   #69
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I must be insensitive. The M9 and M240 feel exactly the same to me...
I don't know... This wheel they putted on M420 and all of this jazz with additional futures just makes it closer to DSLRs, not to M6. IMO.
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Old 01-14-2017   #70
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I find the M9 lighter, but then I use a Rapidgrip on a film M. Simplest digital camera ever, other than the M8 which had the counter on the top. M9 files are a dream to process.

If you need an ISO higher than 800 you might want a Monochrom.
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Old 01-15-2017   #71
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I understand the concept below, but my experience is usually just the opposite. Often, when two objects of different size objectively weigh the same, the larger one feels lighter because it exerts less force per square inch on your hands, or put another way, our nerves are sensitive to density. So the perceptions reported here continue to be interesting.

Giorgio
Hi,

That got me thinking but the results were different.

If I compare the M2 and M9 then I can pick up the M2 with both hands. The M9 can't really be picked up with both hands because of all the bits down the left side (from behind). So I pick it up one handed and carefully at the top right hand side. So the weight isn't taken by two hands but one, etc, etc...

Regards, David
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