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Curious, but what does bending the bellows do?
Old 06-14-2016   #1
panerai
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Curious, but what does bending the bellows do?

Seen camera images of bellows up or twisted and can't figure out how one would be able to take an image doing something like that if the site line is compromised.

Such as this



Thanks

DON
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Old 06-14-2016   #2
ruby.monkey
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The sight line isn't compromised. One would limit the camera contortions to keep the path from lens to film clear (this still allows from some pretty startling camera movements).
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Perspective and other controls
Old 06-14-2016   #3
kuzano
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Perspective and other controls

Bending the bellows is necessary to change the relationship of the front frame to the rear frame. Shutter to film. This allows many controls of perspective and shapes. Line of sight is maintained by the camera user by viewing the ground glass screen for desired contol over the final image.

Steve Simmons "using the view camera" is one of many books and publications that seeks to explain the effects of changing angles and shift differences of front/rear planes and how the image is affected.

Again, the user seeks to create a new line of sight from shutter to film and control many aspects of the image.

https://www.amazon.com/Using-View-Ca.../dp/1626540772
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Old 06-14-2016   #4
Roger Hicks
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There's a full explanation at http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subsc...movements.html . It begins:

Few things are more confusing at first than the 'movements' on large format (LF) cameras -- and yet few things are as simple or intuitive once you have mastered them. Matters are further confused by variations in terminology between English and American usage, and even between different photographers. Regardless of what you call them, movements provide ways of changing the shape of the subject in the final image, and of controlling the plane of focus.

The first picture shows a camera tied in knots, captioned,

More movements than anyone needs

The 121mm f/8 Schneider Super Angulon on this Linhof Technikardan is pretty much at right angles to the ground glass, so there would be no chance of an image even if the bellows were not in the way. It looks impressive, but it is completely irrelevant to real-world photography.

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Old 06-15-2016   #5
panerai
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Thanks for the information guys. No plans on buying one. Just being curious and expanding my knowledge

DON
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Old 06-15-2016   #6
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Additionally, some idiots bend it way too much when they make a pic of the camera they wanna sale. Somehow some sellers think, it's a virtue and a plus selling point, if the camera looks like an anaconda.
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Old 06-15-2016   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pherdinand View Post
Additionally, some idiots bend it way too much when they make a pic of the camera they wanna sale. Somehow some sellers think, it's a virtue and a plus selling point, if the camera looks like an anaconda.
I could see it maybe as a demonstration of range of movement. But otherwise, yeah... not great.
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Old 06-15-2016   #8
Bill Clark
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Another way:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UKEOlbaNKwY

Some will disagree and that's OK.

I have used free transform and warp tool a little.

I find it just another tool I could use with PS.

Any rate thought I would recommend as another idea to explore.
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Old 06-15-2016   #9
Dwig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pherdinand View Post
Additionally, some idiots bend it way too much when they make a pic of the camera they wanna sale. Somehow some sellers think, it's a virtue and a plus selling point, if the camera looks like an anaconda.
It's just like any other fashion pic showing an attractive model. They (human or camera) are often put into somewhat unrealistic poses in order to achieve the desired "look".
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Old 06-15-2016   #10
Benjamin Marks
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I would cut the sellers some slack. I think they are trying to demonstrate that the corners and creases of the bellows are in good shape, that there is no fraying of or corner holes in the materials. Let's face it, on a Sinar, or any camera so robust, the bellows are by far the most delicate part. Oh yeah, and they think the "anaconda" looks cool.

Personally, I have never used movements that extreme. But I have several cameras that would do the limbo like the one pictured above (if it ever came to that).
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Old 06-15-2016   #11
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It may also be important to note that some of the least expensive bellows large format camera's have nearly as much a range of movements as very expensive LF camera's.

Most of Graflex's Press cameras from the last mid century had no movements on the back, but a fair amount of movements on the front standards. One could accomplish quite a bit of perspective control with those press cameras if desired. In fact my $500 Graflex Super Graphic (in excellent condition) has more movements on the front standards than normally anticipated, while the back has no movements.

For me, what you spend on a LF camera beyond basic camera with movements is largely spent on builder reputation, brand name, quality of fine craftsmanship and engineering on struts and rails and holders. Then price goes up considerably the larger the format of the film shot in the camera. Ultra Large format uses film beyond 11x14 inch sheets, to much higher... 20x24 and up.
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Old 06-15-2016   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panerai View Post
Thanks for the information guys. No plans on buying one. Just being curious and expanding my knowledge

DON
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Old 06-15-2016   #13
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The general rule-of-thumb is that the rear movements control the shape, while the front movements control the focus.
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Old 06-15-2016   #14
Steve M.
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As mentioned, it just shows that the seller (it's always an eBait seller that does this) is not a photographer. No photographer would do that to their camera, as it could stress the bellows, and bellows are expensive and sometimes a real PITA to replace. It's doubtful that any sort of photography would require such extreme bending either. No way you could get a full coverage shot with these crazy twisty camera bellows. Not sure where the comment about PS tools came from. We're talking about LF bellows manipulations.

Actually, the op's link is to a normal front rise shot, and it's not extreme at all. I was referring to some of the extreme bellows twisting that you sometimes see. That camera bellows is not stressed. Perfectly normal.

This is not in reference to photography, but light can actually bend around corners, and in fact always bends around them. Gravity also bends light, and we might pick up a simple prism sometime to see some pretty nifty light bending. Holding a stick in the water is a great way to watch light bend.
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Old 06-15-2016   #15
Vince Lupo
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I could see using the high 'rise' with the front standard if you were shooting a tall building (but the front standard wouldn't be canted forward like that - it would be parallel to the rear standard). The only reason I could see doing that (as pictured) would be if you were keeping the rear standard straight up and down for some reason (to keep your verticals straight?), but wanted to have 'selective' focus by tilting the front standard forward.

But yeah, a bit weird as it looks in that photo. Nice camera though.
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Old 06-15-2016   #16
David Hughes
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Hi,

I expect Roger's mentioned it but try this for an explanation of something that seems weird when done upside down, as it must be...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheimpflug_principle

Regards, David
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Old 06-15-2016   #17
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I have contorted cameras to similar degrees in studio settings. But that particular combination really does not make any sense, unless you wanted to photograph a tabletop setting from below.
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Old 06-15-2016   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve M. View Post
.... No photographer would do that to their camera, as it could stress the bellows, and bellows are expensive and sometimes a real PITA to replace. It's doubtful that any sort of photography would require such extreme bending either. No way you could get a full coverage shot with these crazy twisty camera bellows. Not sure where the comment about PS tools came from. We're talking about LF bellows manipulations.
.......
For those worried about "stressing" their bellows they did make bags that replace bellows that provide some form but are more flexible.

I've seen my father do stuff close to that with the front and back to move the zone of focus when shooting industrial product stuff.

I think the seller is showing the flexibility of that design of LF camera rather than teaching a course in photography.

Just a few thoughts.

B2 (;->
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Old 06-15-2016   #19
Roger Hicks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve M. View Post
As mentioned, it just shows that the seller (it's always an eBait seller that does this) is not a photographer. No photographer would do that to their camera, . . .
Dear Steve,

Well, I guess I must not be a photographer then.

Or maybe, because it's it's been part of how I earn a living for decades, it's you who doesn't know much about camera bellows.

Yes, you might harm the bellows if your camera is a piece of clapped out junk with crumbling bellows, but if it's in reasonable condition, it will do no harm whatsoever.

See the above link, http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subsc...movements.html

Cheers,

R.
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Old 06-15-2016   #20
Roger Hicks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Hughes View Post
Hi,

I expect Roger's mentioned it but try this for an explanation of something that seems weird when done upside down, as it must be...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheimpflug_principle

Regards, David
Dear David,

Right first time. Not only the link in the above posts, but also http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subsc...de%20down.html

Cheers,

R.
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Old 06-15-2016   #21
farlymac
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Don, you can always start out small, and get one of these for 35mm.


Bellows_35mm_4 by P F McFarland, on Flickr

PF
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Old 06-15-2016   #22
rogue_designer
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But yeah, a bit weird as it looks in that photo. Nice camera though.
It is a nice camera. Horseman LS or LX - I have the LX and it's been a fantastic shooter for the past 15 years.
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Old 06-15-2016   #23
Vince Lupo
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It is a nice camera. Horseman LS or LX - I have the LX and it's been a fantastic shooter for the past 15 years.
I'm sure it is -- looks like it has a lot of great movements to it. Can you interchange the bellows (like for a bag bellows)? Revolving back? Can you add extensions to the monorail?
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Old 06-15-2016   #24
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Yes on all counts. I keep the bag bellows on mine for 90% of my uses.
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Old 06-15-2016   #25
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Quote:
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Don, you can always start out small, and get one of these for 35mm.

PF
Didn't Ilford make/sell a 35mm monorail?

Adrian
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Old 06-16-2016   #26
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Quote:
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Didn't Ilford make/sell a 35mm monorail?

Adrian
Dear Adrian,

The KI Monobar was made by Kennedy Instruments, who also made other things for Ilford. It's not clear whether they were (as some claim) a subsidiary of Ilford.

http://www.photomemorabilia.co.uk/Il...I_Monobar.html

Cheers,

R.
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Old 06-16-2016   #27
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Roger's page shows some of the common purposes for movements. In layman's terms those are to fix perspective so that architecture looks correct, and doesn't have the converging sides when pointing a camera up. Another is to get the foreground in focus, along with distant mountains, even without being stopped down much. You can also get both eyes in sharp focus of a model sitting at a 45 degree angle to the camera, even at very short dept of field settings. You can "move" the image out into the street like Roger shows. With still lifes, you can adjust the focus plane to be anything you want, to line up with the objects on the table. Or you can unfocus other objects.

Basically, with movements you can easily set up the shot exactly like you want, so your negative is perfect, and print ready with no fancy Photoshop post processing. Remember the time people shot film, then printed in a wet darkroom? Before computers? You could do none of the above without cameras with movements. So besides extremely better resolution, that's why large format cameras have movements. And yes, they are used, they're not just "for looks". ....wait...they are. For the look of the shot.

A video is worth a thousand words. Watch this and you'll instantly see the uses: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JU-eHpk97Y
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Old 06-16-2016   #28
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20mm of front rise plus 30mm of rear fall means the subject is quite a bit higher than the camera. Not an unusual situation.

A bit over 20mm of front shift means the subject is to the right of the camera and either the camera can't be moved to the right, or there's something directly in front of the camera that you want to "shoot around." Front shift is one way to have a mirror in or near the center of the frame without the camera showing up in the mirror. Although you can, in theory, just scoot the tripod a bit left or right most of the time, it can be more convenient or precise to use shift if you find you want just a wee bit of change in composition.

12 degrees of front downward tilt means the subject is not parallel to the film plane, but the photographer wants it to be in focus (or they're using the annoyingly-inaccurately-named "tilt/shift" effect to throw a subject selectively out of focus, which is just tilt, not shift!) Scheimpflug can be confusing stuff!

I don't know that I've used movements this extreme in the field, but I've certainly gotten close, and have used combinations of rise/fall and shift with tilt. I've rarely used tilt and swing together, as that tends to confuse the hell out of me. My Ebony is a field camera, so doesn't have quite as much range in its movements (and only has rear rise, not fall), but using movements is quite common with view cameras. I almost always use front rise or fall for every image, as it's easier to have the camera at my face and not move the tripod up or down or tilt the tripod head if my subject is higher or lower than I am.
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Old 06-16-2016   #29
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Quote:
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!

I don't know that I've used movements this extreme in the field,
The amount is not that unusual. But the direction of the downward tilt opposed to the upward rise is - that combination is highly unlikely, almost impossible unless you wanted to do a artificially low DOF picture, Burnett style, of something stuck to a ceiling.
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Old 06-18-2016   #30
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Interesting read, but still not buying one

Sadly my CL sits on the shelf as I tend to grab my Panasonic LX3

Not much use for a camera like this in my area. Dragging one downtown and set up not my style.

No open fields or majestic vistas to photograph. Grand nieces and nephews don't hold still long enough for the LX3, so forget about holding still for LF.

Created a good conversation though

Thanks

DON
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Old 06-19-2016   #31
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This is cool stuff I miss since I went totally digital. I have adapted 28 and 35 Leica PC to Nikon , but there are no swing controls to adjust focus plane. Digital darkroom does provide some interesting adjustments to compensate like focus stacking.

Gone are the nice quiet hours in the dark room.
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