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Old 10-21-2015   #41
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Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
I would like to see Leica get rid of video and live view from the M now that they have an alternative. Bring it back down to the size of a film M as well.
Why? There are so many excellent lenses that demand live view for accurate focusing and composition. I might again be in a minority in preferring wide and fast lenses, but I have three M lenses below 35mm. Even 35mm is tough on a .68x for us who wear glasses when shooting. If I buy a digital M I'll probably only shoot 50 and 75 through the RF window.

Agree with the size part, though. The M6 is much better in hand than any of the digital Ms.
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Old 10-21-2015   #42
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Originally Posted by Lss View Post
There are important qualities to this camera that do differentiate it from the competition. For example, the Leica SL shares much of the well-liked Leica S UI. It's simple but allows configuration. It also works well with M lenses according to the first reports.

For M lens use, I don't see real problem regarding the camera size without actually handling the beast. The same, of course, goes to confirming that the UI liked by many others really fits my needs. On paper, it looks pretty good. The weight increase is some 40% over my M8, which is significant and mostly unwelcome. I was certainly hoping for a smaller overall footprint, but this is based on Leica Q specs and the requirements of an M lens user. These obviously were not the driving principles of the Leica SL design.

It seems the initial price rumors were quite correct, and I must say I factored them into my expectations to some degree. Otherwise, again based on Leica Q, I was hoping for about 1000-1500 euro less for the body. Even that would have been a steep price for anyone who is specification-shopping among the competition.
The Leica S UI makes sense if you're in a studio or other controlled environment. But workhorses like the D4s or 645Z are covered with buttons for a good reason. When you're actually under stress to get consistent shots with time constraints and a lot of unknown variables, having everything 1-button deep is a huge asset.

Which again goes to the contradictory nature of the SL. It won't appeal to studio enthusiasts with its lackluster strobe support and *only* 24 megapixels. Not saying that 24 isn't enough, but if you're already in a studio and have things bolted down, more resolution never hurts. It also won't appeal to more spontaneous types because the control layout isn't quite versatile enough, and I suspect that with relatively slow AF tracking the camera can't machine-gun through important scenes like an 1dx could. The 1dx tracks at 14fps...
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Old 10-21-2015   #43
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I'm sorry, but the lens in that dpreview.com photo is absolutely huge. It takes 82mm filters. * cough cough * And I thought my Canon 70-200 was big! The lenses for the SL are so large they almost look comical. As somebody already mentioned on a different RFF thread, maybe the "SL" stands for "SO LARGE!"

But what do I know? I hope Leica sells tons of SL cameras. Then they'll still have the money to coax more performance and upgrades for the M-bodies.
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Old 10-21-2015   #44
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Originally Posted by YYV_146 View Post
Why? There are so many excellent lenses that demand live view for accurate focusing and composition. I might again be in a minority in preferring wide and fast lenses, but I have three M lenses below 35mm. Even 35mm is tough on a .68x for us who wear glasses when shooting. If I buy a digital M I'll probably only shoot 50 and 75 through the RF window.

Agree with the size part, though. The M6 is much better in hand than any of the digital Ms.
Why? because it is my preference... that's it. Liveview didn't exist in the M until recently... now it is a must have item? I like my RF to be a RF.
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Old 10-21-2015   #45
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Originally Posted by YYV_146 View Post
The Leica S UI makes sense if you're in a studio or other controlled environment. But workhorses like the D4s or 645Z are covered with buttons for a good reason. When you're actually under stress to get consistent shots with time constraints and a lot of unknown variables, having everything 1-button deep is a huge asset.
There are different needs and preferences. A lot depends on how configurable the UI actually is (I have never used the S myself).
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Old 10-21-2015   #46
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As a professional I would not buy this camera and guess there will be few that will. Its not as much about price as it is the lack of long fast glass and mature system.
I agree here, though I think the camera will sell fine, because they won't so many.

Compared to a D810, it's a lonely thing, in the autofocus universe. If it had a 500/4 all the way to UWA, you would start to see it more places.

But on the other hand, what it does offer are the M lenses, which are worshipped by many pros. That capability, combined with the video and other techie features will be enough.

All the "it's ugly" comments make me wonder if these critics have done anything but look at the midget model holding it. That image is pure bashing, on purpose, it should be obvious.

A careful look will reveal an exquisite build, the Sony is a toy in comparison, though those straight line have killed ergos. Ming's hand hurt in a short time with the big zoom.

Many are mad because it's not they want: small, simple, M-cool and free.

I'll never own one, but I very much admire the thing.
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Old 10-21-2015   #47
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Originally Posted by lcpr View Post
- What seems, on paper, to be fast AF and fast operation in general

- A video mode that isn't gimped to protect a dedicated video camera lineup (see: Canon). I bet Leica have asked Panasonic for advice on video as well. Assuming that the quality is up to GH4 standards, 4:2:2 10-bit output, 4k30 and 1080p120, stabilised Leica zooms, weather sealing, zebras, mic-levels, and the ability to mount almost every kind of lens would make for an amazing video setup. Of course, there are many other factors in what makes for a good video camera, but it looks promising.
.
According to the Shutterbug article Panasonic had a hand in both the af and video electronics.

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Old 10-21-2015   #48
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Many are mad because it's not they want: small, simple, M-cool and free.

I'll never own one, but I very much admire the thing.
Good way to sum it all up.
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Old 10-21-2015   #49
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I think it's a lovely looking camera--looks as though Leica took the industrial design of the original Sony A7 (mark I) to its conclusion. It's cool and weird. I'd be happy to have and use one if someone gave it to me. Hell, I want one, but I'd never buy one...not that I could afford it anyway. Another 24mp full-frame CMOS sensor? How boring, even if it turns out to be the prettiest CMOS sensor on the market. And too bad the reference 50mm Summilux-SL is still a year away. Maybe we'll see what it can do with the 50 Apo-Summicron and an adapter.

The contrast-detection AF may perform amazingly well in good light, but without phase-detection AF, where else can this camera really perform at a professional level (besides in a controlled environment)!? What I don't understand is why a studio photographer (presumably the the target audience) would be shooting this over a leaf-shutter medium format camera. I thought mirrorless, digital medium format was the next big market, what with the rumors about Sony and Canon preparing medium format offerings. Leica could have led this new market, and I would have loved seeing a similarly-sized, mirrorless S-type medium format-ish camera.
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Old 10-21-2015   #50
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[quote=YYV_146;2541733]
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Originally Posted by benmacphoto View Post
The same people who buy new M240s which cost $7200?


But arguably there is something special about the M240, being at the time one of four production digital rangefinders in the world, and the only one with live view. It also have a native lens system of 100+ lenses...




The peaking implementation in the M cameras leaves much to be desired. I was mostly thinking about what fuji did with the X100T...a live magnified view in the optical viewfinder.




Exactly. At $3,000 this is a nice, premium competitor to the A7II or XT1. At $7,500...not really.
You mean the Leica name and superior service are not worth $4500 extra?

It also has those beautiful sharp corners and edges so it looks like a 1960 Japanese SLR but more so. They should have gotten a designer.

Had I not sold most of my R glass when they said they will never make a R10 for them, I might have still given it some consideration. But they are now in Nikon mounts.

Leica M and pro Nikons are all I need.
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Old 10-21-2015   #51
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What Leica was thinking is that this is a studio camera, a mini S2 (itself a camera that has gained some popularity amongst high-end commercial photographers). If you're a RF shooter who likes the M-system, this isn't the camera for you. And this isn't the end of the M's- there will surely be an M360 or something soon enough; they're totally different market segments. The M system is fantastic and will live on, just as it has for the past 50 years of SLR dominance.

I'm honestly a bit shocked at all the hostility and broad generalizations I'm seeing about this system from what is otherwise an astoundingly reasonable community. I wouldn't use my X-E1 the same way I use my 5D; they're different tools for different uses. One wouldn't use an M240 the same as this SL; they're different tools for different uses. Sure, there will absolutely be fools who buy this as an expensive trinket, just as there are fools who buy M9's and Lamborghinis and loaded-up Mac Pros as expensive trinkets. But unlike some high-end cameras (*coughSonyBladcough*), this looks to be a legitimate system for high-end use. There will be more lenses, and they will be enormous because they will be optimized for the high performance at wide apertures that studio photographers want. That's fine because the SL does not have anything to do with the M.

As for the SL vs the Sony A7; it would be nice if this SL had a 36MP+ sensor to really compete with low-end medium format (of which I'm including the likes of the D810, 5Ds, A7r as well as S2, P645Z) but I am sure that the usability will be much better than the A7. It is well-known that while the A7 makes lovely images, actually using the camera is more akin to programming a VCR than operating a fine photographic tool. The SL on the other hand seems more similar to the S2; not the same experience as using an M but nonetheless possessing a very refined and photographer-oriented interface.

If I had the $$$, I'd absolutely purchase an SL. And I'd also purchase an M9 Each tool to it's own task
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Old 10-21-2015   #52
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Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
I would like to see Leica get rid of video and live view from the M now that they have an alternative. Bring it back down to the size of a film M as well.
Yeah! +1 and 10 char
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Old 10-21-2015   #53
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And I would like to re-iterate, that I do not agree that this has anything to do with Leica "betraying" or "abandoning" the Rangefinder folks. The M9 and M240 are wonderful cameras with a large following, and in the next ~18months I expect Leica to release an updated M body. Saying that the release of the SL or the Q or the T means Leica doesn't care about Rangefinders anymore seems to me a bit like saying that Chevy doesn't care about trucks anymore because they're developing the Bolt, or that Apple stopped caring about Macbooks when they made the iPad.
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Old 10-21-2015   #54
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According to the Shutterbug article Panasonic had a hand in both the af and video electronics.

Gary
That's great news then. Just looked at the spec sheet and it has V-log too, honestly at £5k it might be right there with Canon's 1DC, especially when you take adapters into account.
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Old 10-21-2015   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Markey View Post
Last time that I checked the reaction to it on LUF was pretty similar.
LUF is barely just "outside RFF". If Leica would ask their existing clients what they want, the answer would be a smaller M. (If they ever ask me, that is how I will respond.)

This is clearly about reaching new potential clients that wouldn't buy an M. Think of how many people there are out there with the means to buy a Leica but not the time or background in photography to really master an M. Then think of an AE, AF, zoom capable SL sitting in those nice black and red display cabinets in all of those new Leica stores. Then in those terms maybe Leica is on to something here.

I wouldn't buy one, but I think there is a large market out there for this camera.
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Old 10-21-2015   #56
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Originally Posted by Kate-the-Great View Post
What Leica was thinking is that this is a studio camera, a mini S2 (itself a camera that has gained some popularity amongst high-end commercial photographers). If you're a RF shooter who likes the M-system, this isn't the camera for you. And this isn't the end of the M's- there will surely be an M360 or something soon enough; they're totally different market segments. The M system is fantastic and will live on, just as it has for the past 50 years of SLR dominance.

I'm honestly a bit shocked at all the hostility and broad generalizations I'm seeing about this system from what is otherwise an astoundingly reasonable community. I wouldn't use my X-E1 the same way I use my 5D; they're different tools for different uses. One wouldn't use an M240 the same as this SL; they're different tools for different uses. Sure, there will absolutely be fools who buy this as an expensive trinket, just as there are fools who buy M9's and Lamborghinis and loaded-up Mac Pros as expensive trinkets. But unlike some high-end cameras (*coughSonyBladcough*), this looks to be a legitimate system for high-end use. There will be more lenses, and they will be enormous because they will be optimized for the high performance at wide apertures that studio photographers want. That's fine because the SL does not have anything to do with the M.
nicely put!
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Old 10-21-2015   #57
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Originally Posted by Kate-the-Great View Post
And I would like to re-iterate, that I do not agree that this has anything to do with Leica "betraying" or "abandoning" the Rangefinder folks. The M9 and M240 are wonderful cameras with a large following, and in the next ~18months I expect Leica to release an updated M body. Saying that the release of the SL or the Q or the T means Leica doesn't care about Rangefinders anymore seems to me a bit like saying that Chevy doesn't care about trucks anymore because they're developing the Bolt, or that Apple stopped caring about Macbooks when they made the iPad.
Kate, you are far too sensible and seem to have the rare gift of common sense that is so lacking in this world. Now let's let the naysayers have their word, or we'll never hear the end of it. ;-)
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Old 10-21-2015   #58
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Boy this is big and ugly and expensive !
Is SL for Super Large ?
no i think its for Super Lame. its actually the singular most ridiculous looking rig i have ever seen in my many decade dance with photography. absolutely absurd, and if it was done by anyone else you wouldnt be able to hear a helicopter over your head for the din of criticism--nay outright guffaws of laughter--that would be coming from this forum.
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Old 10-21-2015   #59
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Leica SL Typ 601
Dimension: 147 × 104 × 39 mm
Weight: 847 g with battery.
copied from bhphotovide0 com

Mamiya 7
Camera body : 159(L) x 112(H) x 66(D)mm :
Camera body : 920g

Just a quick and unfair comparison.
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Old 10-21-2015   #60
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did you see the picture? her open hand cannot get around more than 1/3 of the lens! seriously? its 82mm! cmon now, reality check anyone? lets pretend sigma put this out, you still behind it? dont think so, not at all.
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Old 10-21-2015   #61
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I guess I'm just a little confused about what need the Leica SL fills. It seems like a slightly oversized DSLR without anything standout-isn about its CMOS sensor, quite a steep asking price for the body, and a set of auto focus lenses whose stats don't really add up to what is offered by Canon/Nikon, at a price that is double what the Canon/Nikon lenses go for. Where is the draw to this system? Again, I'm confused by what Leica is trying to do with this camera.
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Old 10-21-2015   #62
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TJ you understand it perfectly. with the possible exception of the Q, this IS the leica business plan: sell old tech to those with 'red dot fever'. remember the xvario? a fixed lens zoom that tops out at 70/6.5??!! yeah, thats their MO. dont be surprised, dont expect anything different, and expect plaudits from the 'feverish' on this forum for whatever ridiculous retreaded hardware leica puts out.
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Old 10-21-2015   #63
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Actually Leica has by far the best 'pro' service that I've ever used. You will need to contact Leica and prove pro status and if you then have a problem its dealt with very speedily (only used it a couple of times and repair turnaround was within a week I think - I was away one time and the camera was back before I was).
On several occasions I spoke to multiple people at Leica NJ starting with the person that answered the phone to the manager of service and customer relations. I explained I've been A full time commercial photographer shooting for Fortune 500 corporations and major publications for over 45 years. I so said I've been a dedicated Leica user from the beginning of my career in 1968. I was there there is no loaner program, no priority service for pros and no NPS type services period. They were not in the least helpful or interested.

No pro support, no more dollars spent on new Leica gear period. Considering each of 4 trips under warranty of my body and various lenses to NJ at an average of 7 weeks each trip, I can not rely on my equipment (sold it) and can not rely on Leica.

I don't think Leica really cares about the pro market with a dedicated amateur base like they have. If they pick up a few I'm sure they'll be loving it but there arent enough of us with the money to buy a system to worry about.

Having owned a Hasselblad digital system for several years and a Nikon D800 digital system so the SL would have to be truly amazing for me to buy into the system. Without actually using one it's hard to say but it look enormous, heavy and awkward. IMO it's too close in cost to a MF digital system in cost and size to be attractive.

This is just my 2 cents. My needs and expectations are different than yours most likely so you may love it where I would hate it. You might say ymmv.
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Old 10-22-2015   #64
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On several occasions I spoke to multiple people at Leica NJ .....
You need to communicate directly with head office - pm me and I'll forward details. I've found the Leica 'pro' service better and faster than either Canon (or Nikon in the past) in the UK, even when dealing direct with Germany.
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Old 10-22-2015   #65
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did you see the picture? her open hand cannot get around more than 1/3 of the lens! seriously? its 82mm! cmon now, reality check anyone? lets pretend sigma put this out, you still behind it? dont think so, not at all.
You do realize that the 50mm Sigma Art lens is a 77mm filter ring and it sells well. It's 24-70mm F2.8 lens has a 82mm filter ring and sells well.
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Old 10-22-2015   #66
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You need to communicate directly with head office - pm me and I'll forward details. I've found the Leica 'pro' service better and faster than either Canon (or Nikon in the past) in the UK, even when dealing direct with Germany.
I no longer have the camera. It was too unreliable and service too bad. After that experience I have no interest in buying any Leica digital equipment.

The problem was not only the lack of service but the quality of service. One lens had to go back 3 times for the same problem. I finally forced NJ to replace it.
Thanks for the offer!
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Old 10-22-2015   #67
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This is irrelevant to the topic, but that person has breasts and a man's hands, or there is some kind of serious distortion in that picture.

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About Contrast Detection AF
Old 10-22-2015   #68
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About Contrast Detection AF

The most serious problem with automated (quick) contrast-detection AF is avoiding the focus on unintended objects with higher contrast than the intended focus region objects with lower contrast. This problem is not serious unless the photographer is unfamiliar with CDAF or if the camera does not have a diverse set of focusing modes available for different circumstances.

Since the EVF is said to be a game changer, analog (mechanical) focusing using manual focusing aids may be so efficient, PDAF is redundant.

Still, I am puzzled this camera does not have a phase-sensitive AF mode.

To be fair, implementing PDAF in a mirrorless system does not require a fundamental change in hardware. PDAF is currently implemented in mirrorless systems by assigning small sets of existing pixels for phase detection AF. The small gaps in the image required for PD do noticeably degrade IQ.

So releasing a PDAF version of the camera would be relatively straightforward (even inferior Japanese brands like Fujifilm can do it) and I predict PDAF to be a standard feature before long. In fact it could be the next logical model upgrade.
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Old 10-22-2015   #69
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I still think the person is tiny and the camera is not big at all. ;-)
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Old 10-22-2015   #70
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I still think the person is tiny and the camera is not big at all. ;-)
Today is the camera expo in NYC... I've heard it's big.
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Old 10-22-2015   #71
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Look at the beauty ring on the front of the lens and you'll see the filter size is E82. That's a very large filter. Put a hood on it and imagine the size. Now imagine the size of their 80-200! Add a hood.
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Old 10-22-2015   #72
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Originally Posted by x-ray View Post
Look at the beauty ring on the front of the lens and you'll see the filter size is E82. That's a very large filter. Put a hood on it and imagine the size. Now imagine the size of their 80-200! Add a hood.
I don't think they're planning an 80-200 at present. The 24-90 BAZOOKA will be complemented by a 90-250 HOWITZER. I love these new Leica codes!

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Old 10-22-2015   #73
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Originally Posted by willie_901 View Post
To be fair, implementing PDAF in a mirrorless system does not require a fundamental change in hardware. PDAF is currently implemented in mirrorless systems by assigning small sets of existing pixels for phase detection AF. The small gaps in the image required for PD do noticeably degrade IQ.
My mirrorless Nikon 1 V2 has a great PDAF system and that camera has been out for a number of years now. I don't see why Leica couldn't do a PDAF with this new SL camera.
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Old 10-22-2015   #74
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Enough fun and games. Let's put this VERY HUGE size BS to rest, okay?

Jono Slack's excellent article (http://www.getdpi.com/wp/) shows this picture of Leica SL and Leicaflex SL2 parked next to one another:



He provides measurements:
Leica SL
width 145mm
depth 36mm
height 103mm
weight 900 gm with batteries

Leicaflex SL2
width 146mm
depth 39mm
height 94mm
weight 818 grm (with batteries)
Leicaflex SL and SL2 differ in size only marginally, so here's my Leica M-P with Nokton 50 mounted next to my Leicaflex SL with Summilux 50:



I know some of you are going to tell me how fat the M-P is.. :-)

Note that the Protector half case adds 12mm to the height of the M-P. I didn't bother taking it out of the case. Compared against the M4-2 (also in its half-case), the M-P is 10mm taller, 6mm thicker front to back, and 2mm longer. I don't have a similar half-case for the Leicaflex SL or I'd have shown it sitting in that too.

Yeah, the SL's 24-90/2.8-4 image stabilized zoom lens is a big bazooka, but it's not *that* big. It specs out at:
Filter Thread: 82 mm
Dimensions (DxL): approx. 3.46" x 5.43" (88 x 138 mm)
Weight: 2.51 lb (1140 g)
That's just a little larger and heavier than my Nikon 180mm f/2.8 AF-D, which takes a 72mm filter. The unfortunate photo of the woman holding the SL with zoom on it, looking like it's a massive lump, shows a LOT of foreshortening and was probably made with someone's cell phone camera, given the DoF, etc.

The Leica SL is a nicely sized body, it will work beautifully with my R lenses for balance and overall feel, will fit in the same bag I currently have the Leicaflex in, etc. I'm not a big zoom lens user so however big the zooms are is not much interest to me. The upcoming Summilux-SL 50mm f/1.4 ASPH is a large lens, in the same vein as most other modern premium lenses; I can only presume this is due to a pretty complex assembly of optics. But I'll be fitting the same evergreen Summilux-R 50/1.4 you see in the photo above.

Life's too short.
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Old 10-22-2015   #75
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Let's just have a more straight forward comparison. No mirrorless EVF camera to SLR or to RF.



source: http://www.photographyblog.com/news/...de_comparison/

The lenses comparison is another matter...
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Old 10-22-2015   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
Enough fun and games. Let's put this VERY HUGE size BS to rest, okay?
Godfrey, it's big for what people have come to expect from a mirrorless camera. We get that you love it. But it IS big (and also a new type of mirrorless).
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Old 10-22-2015   #77
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The non contoured grip is a concern.
I used to have a custom grip for my P67 that was just a straight shot like the new SL.
It was far from ideal.
I'm loving the overall concept. It's a bit of a contradiction being that it seems so well set up for fashion or studio work but, relatively pedestrian resolution for such work.

24mp is not bad it's just sort of yesterday for a camera that otherwise says tomorrow.
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Old 10-22-2015   #78
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Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
Godfrey, it's big for what people have come to expect from a mirrorless camera. We get that you love it. But it IS big (and also a new type of mirrorless).
People should adjust their expectations and not let a misleading, foreshortened photograph be their guide. If I want a petite, professional quality mirrorless to work with, the Olympus E-M1 is far better at being compact.

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Old 10-22-2015   #79
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Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
People should adjust their expectations and not let a misleading, foreshortened photograph be their guide. If I want a petite, professional quality mirrorless to work with, the Olympus E-M1 is far better at being compact.
I can agree with that.
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Old 10-22-2015   #80
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Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
I can agree with that.
+1

But with a Caveat.

People should be allowed t express their surprise and disapointment without being put in their place constantly.
It's Big. It really is big. I'm surprised and happy with that. Someone else may be surprised and disappointed.
So what? Live and let live.
It's a Forum thread not a UN think tank !
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