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(High credibility rumor) The new Leica mirrorless
Old 09-22-2015   #1
danielsterno
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(High credibility rumor) The new Leica mirrorless

(High credibility rumor) The new Leica mirrorless non-rangefinder camera could be named "Leica SL"!
http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/high...amed-leica-sl/
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Old 09-22-2015   #2
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I like the M ergonomics, even if many consider it retro. I'm not sure I like that of the Leicaflex and hope Leica isn't making it in that form or in an intentionally retro style just because everyone else is doing retro...
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Old 09-22-2015   #3
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I think the SLR style body is seen as "professional" by amateurs hence the very popular Sony A7 and Fuji XT1.
Looks like Leica is cashing in on this trend. I'm curious what similarities the image processing engine will have with the new Q and what that may imply for the next M.
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Old 09-23-2015   #4
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love eveything about this idea, everything, except that it might not accept M lenses. if its mirrorless, i just dont understand that and hope its not true. this would be a great vehicle for accurate focusing of 90-135mm leica glass.
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Old 09-23-2015   #5
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I can't imagine it won't accept M lenses... just maybe not without an adapter. I look forward to seeing what it comes up with.
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Old 09-23-2015   #6
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I see it costing a lot more than the Sony .... and basically offering nothing extra except the fact that it is a Leica. I'm not convinced about the Solms elves venturing into this market ... it's very competitive!
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Old 09-23-2015   #7
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Hmmm. $8000. Unless it is replacing the M, this just doesn't make sense to me. It's going to be really tough playing in the mirrorless marketplace with an $8,000 dollar camera. Even if it says, "Leica," on the nameplate.
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Old 09-23-2015   #8
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Originally Posted by JP Owens View Post
Hmmm. $8000. Unless it is replacing the M, this just doesn't make sense to me. It's going to be really tough playing in the mirrorless marketplace with an $8,000 dollar camera. Even if it says, "Leica," on the nameplate.
One would think, but I see many people in the Leica store buying Leica cameras without knowing anything about them... there are people out there who have a lot of money and who like brand names. Remember, Leica isn't competing with Sony. Whether we like it or not, they are a luxury brand that has acted like one for awhile now.
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Old 09-23-2015   #9
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That's a fairly poor photo of a Leicaflex SL. It's a much nicer looking camera than that would lead you to believe. If Leica is looking to provide a good body for the excellent Leica R lenses, a Leicaflex SL lookalike and workalike will do well by me.

The only negative comment about the original Leicaflex SL/SL II I can make is that they're a mite bit on the heavy side. Other than that, it's one of my all time favorite SLR bodies. Something that looks and feels the same (at about 40% less weight...) would be a delightful camera.

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Old 09-23-2015   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP Owens View Post
Hmmm. $8000. Unless it is replacing the M, this just doesn't make sense to me. It's going to be really tough playing in the mirrorless marketplace with an $8,000 dollar camera. Even if it says, "Leica," on the nameplate.
But... it's a Leica.
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Old 09-23-2015   #11
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My insight is they have to make more profits so if this product or others like it get them to a more profitable bottom-line then go for it. Of course the more wiser photographer do not have to buy into it, or do, BUT if it gets us the products/R&D to what we want then its a win win for all and the Hollywood/Leica jewelry buyers can be happy as well…. thus its a good thing…. D.
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Old 09-23-2015   #12
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I see it costing a lot more than the Sony .... and basically offering nothing extra except the fact that it is a Leica. I'm not convinced about the Solms elves venturing into this market ... it's very competitive!
You obviously never shot much with a Sony A7. If you like working with half-finished science projects which loose half their value in short order, they are wonderful.

That's the only competition.

They don't have to sell more cameras. They only have to sell the ones they make.

Based on how the Q is doing, looks like a smart move to me.

Not that I want one, LOL AF gives me nausea.
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Old 09-23-2015   #13
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You obviously never shot much with a Sony A7. If you like working with half-finished science projects which loose half their value in short order, they are wonderful.

That's the only competition.
Yeah, the results from a Sony are fine, but they are not that fun to use. I still use one sometimes though.
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Old 09-23-2015   #14
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I'd love to know where they are going to make all these new lenses...Portugal?

Not that there is anything wrong with that. Sony has struggled with build quality of their lenses. The A7 is best in "Q" mode: put the 35/2.8 or 55/1.8 native on there and leave it. That's where the strongest results come from...well, now there is a great 90 as well. But the natives are famous for copy variation, and unlike the Q, they are no fun to MF.

Think of this: you want to make a quick landscape on a walk. With a M9, you whip out the 28 (which is a subpar FL on the Sony) high the infinity stop at F/8 and pow. With A7 and it's 35/2.8.....if you lucked out and got a good one.....you can hold it up and point it, autofocus and shoot. But where did it focus? The camera can be fickle in this situation. So, you MF, but....no infinity stop. You hit the magnifier, and.....NOISE....this is no patch LOL. You use the peaking and you frame thinking you are in a video game.

Sony's oblivious oversight in design of the focus by wire on the FE 35/2.8 defies belief. A literal headache. And for others....an opportunity.
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Old 09-23-2015   #15
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I think lenses would be made in Japan (speculation!) It would make sense however to adopt the policy that Leitz Microsystems and Zeiss follow to make only the "specials" in Germany and to outsource the routine production.
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Old 09-23-2015   #16
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I'd love to know where they are going to make all these new lenses...Portugal?

Not that there is anything wrong with that. Sony has struggled with build quality of their lenses. The A7 is best in "Q" mode: put the 35/2.8 or 55/1.8 native on there and leave it. That's where the strongest results come from...well, now there is a great 90 as well. But the natives are famous for copy variation, and unlike the Q, they are no fun to MF.

Think of this: you want to make a quick landscape on a walk. With a M9, you whip out the 28 (which is a subpar FL on the Sony) high the infinity stop at F/8 and pow. With A7 and it's 35/2.8.....if you lucked out and got a good one.....you can hold it up and point it, autofocus and shoot. But where did it focus? The camera can be fickle in this situation. So, you MF, but....no infinity stop. You hit the magnifier, and.....NOISE....this is no patch LOL. You use the peaking and you frame thinking you are in a video game.

Sony's oblivious oversight in design of the focus by wire on the FE 35/2.8 defies belief. A literal headache. And for others....an opportunity.
Dude... that is completely sarcastic blather. If you can't use af ....ok fine.
Making it sound like a handycap is just plain silly
The Sony is a peice of cake to use with native lenses and... it gives great results.
You just hate it because you wanted to love it more than you do
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Old 09-23-2015   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rscheffler View Post
I like the M ergonomics, even if many consider it retro. I'm not sure I like that of the Leicaflex and hope Leica isn't making it in that form or in an intentionally retro style just because everyone else is doing retro...
I love the Leicaflex. Of course, I love the M cameras as well.
The Leicaflex just fits my hands so well, best SLR as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 09-23-2015   #18
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Dude... that is completely sarcastic blather. If you can't use af ....ok fine.
Making it sound like a handycap is just plain silly
The Sony is a peice of cake to use with native lenses and... it gives great results.
You just hate it because you wanted to love it more than you do
I'd argue that if you actually want to accurately focus fast or wider Leica lenses on any body, E-mount is the way to go. Has anyone tried focusing with off-center composition with a Noctilux or 75mm Summilux? It's next to impossible on the M.

The A7's AF isn't great, it's flexible but not particularly fast in any scenario. Getting used to peaking and shooting manual provides a consistently more reliable experience.

But I agree on the viewfinder hump. A EVF in the RF window location is easier to use for shorter lenses. For long lenses (100mm+) I would want the VF to be on the imaging axis, though.
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Old 09-23-2015   #19
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You just hate it because you wanted to love it more than you do
True, but can you blame us?
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Old 09-23-2015   #20
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I'd argue that if you actually want to accurately focus fast or wider Leica lenses on any body, E-mount is the way to go. Has anyone tried focusing with off-center composition with a Noctilux or 75mm Summilux? It's next to impossible on the M.

The A7's AF isn't great, it's flexible but not particularly fast in any scenario. Getting used to peaking and shooting manual provides a consistently more reliable experience.

But I agree on the viewfinder hump. A EVF in the RF window location is easier to use for shorter lenses. For long lenses (100mm+) I would want the VF to be on the imaging axis, though.
Hmm. When I had the Summilux-M 75mm f/1.4 ASPH and used it with my Leica M6TTL, I had no problems focusing and framing with it. I don't know why it would be "impossible" on the M ...?

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Old 09-23-2015   #21
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Oh, I've had difficulties with ***off center compostion*** focusing using a summilux on an M. I can nail the focus on the subject when it falls at/near the patch, but off center.... tough. Tough at wide open or mostly wide open that is. I've been trying to develop strategies for this situation.....BTW, does anyone have a strategy they use...and would share with us(me)?

As for the rumored camera. I'm definitely curious. Not that it relates, but I've been looking harder at the SL2 (vintage) lately. Not sure why. I should be happy with my extensive Nikon accumulation, er I mean, system.
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Old 09-23-2015   #22
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Hmm. When I had the Summilux-M 75mm f/1.4 ASPH and used it with my Leica M6TTL, I had no problems focusing and framing with it. I don't know why it would be "impossible" on the M ...?

G
Have you done off-center composing at F1.4? Placing the subject on the line-of-thirds for example. With the RF patch you can only confirm focus at the center, and when you recompose focus is thrown off the critical plane. Hassy has a system to automatically compensate for off-center composing, but I don't think Leica has ever had one.

And IMO this problem is much worse with the 21mm Summilux or the CV 35mm F1.2. With wide lenses off-center compositions is often the norm.
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Old 09-24-2015   #23
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I wonder if this is it?

http://leicarumors.com/2015/09/23/le...ber-20th.aspx/
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Old 09-24-2015   #24
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There will be a lot of hype leading up to the release of this camera ... if it's real!

Lots of teaser videos etc I suspect ....
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Old 09-24-2015   #25
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I am an unabashed Leica fan, and I understand the concept of market segmentation very well. Yet I am baffled by the myriad of product lines that came out of Wetzlar lately, the X, Q, T, M, S, and now another one?
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Old 09-24-2015   #26
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I am an unabashed Leica fan, and I understand the concept of market segmentation very well. Yet I am baffled by the myriad of product lines that came out of Wetzlar lately, the X, Q, T, M, S, and now another one?
I don't know what's so baffling. Leica has diversified its products such that it is offering a similar mix to most other camera manufacturers now, that's all.
  • X and Q are new, fixed lens, digital cameras for those who eschew the expense and complexity of interchangeable lens systems cameras.
  • M is the same as it's been since the 1950s, including digital now too.
  • T is a new interchangeable lens system based on the APS-C format, lower cost than the M.
  • S is a larger format, digital replacement for the R film system.

The question is what the SL will provide in that context. If it is more direct replacement for the R system bodies and well matched to the R lenses, it has a clear position in the line.

G
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Old 09-24-2015   #27
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The question is what the SL will provide in that context. If it is more direct replacement for the R system bodies and well matched to the R lenses, it has a clear position in the line.
Or it could simply be a FF, AF Leica with new lenses.
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Old 09-24-2015   #28
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Oh, I've had difficulties with ***off center compostion*** focusing using a summilux on an M. I can nail the focus on the subject when it falls at/near the patch, but off center.... tough. Tough at wide open or mostly wide open that is. I've been trying to develop strategies for this situation.....BTW, does anyone have a strategy they use...and would share with us(me)?
There is no viable strategy. There's a reason the SLR slowly dominated the 35mm market starting in the mid-1960s. There's a reason why auto-focus sold cameras.

Every tool has weaknesses. I enjoyed using optical RF cameras. I still enjoy using a camera I can operate as if it had an optical RF. But achieving focus on objects away from the frame center and using a narrow DOF with a RF is futile.
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Old 09-24-2015   #29
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I don't know what's so baffling. ...
Me either.

The SL could simply be a less expensive version of the S. Why wouldn't Leica want to appeal increase its product diversity? To a point more diversity means more customers. After all the main R&D costs (CMOS sensor assemblies, displays, AF and firmware code) are slightly modified and repurposed. Product development cost is much less than that for a new system... like the M240.
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Old 09-24-2015   #30
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I am an unabashed Leica fan, and I understand the concept of market segmentation very well. Yet I am baffled by the myriad of product lines that came out of Wetzlar lately, the X, Q, T, M, S, and now another one?
The only way to grab attention and potential customers is to be in the news and talked about in social media. The only way camera companies can stay up to date with social media talk and news is to release new products as often as they can. For example Sony has nearly perfected this strategy, there is always news of some up coming Sony camera.

Leica is also trying to be in the news with frequent releases of cameras. But while Sony is catering to a large market, Leica with its small market might just overwhelm its own fans with one too many cameras...
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Old 09-24-2015   #31
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Me either.

The SL could simply be a less expensive version of the S. Why wouldn't Leica want to appeal increase its product diversity? To a point more diversity means more customers. After all the main R&D costs (CMOS sensor assemblies, displays, AF and firmware code) are slightly modified and repurposed. Product development cost is much less than that for a new system... like the M240.
So a 135 format Mirrorless S model to go along side the Medium Format S ?

3 seperate AF lens systems plus the M mount system or rather 4 lens mounts from one manufacturer ?
Seems unprecedented to have so many systems under one roof.

Leica has great products but has had a bad run of QC in the last decade.
It will be interesting to see how they manage yet another system in regards to actual production.
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Old 09-24-2015   #32
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Have you done off-center composing at F1.4? Placing the subject on the line-of-thirds for example. With the RF patch you can only confirm focus at the center, and when you recompose focus is thrown off the critical plane. Hassy has a system to automatically compensate for off-center composing, but I don't think Leica has ever had one.

And IMO this problem is much worse with the 21mm Summilux or the CV 35mm F1.2. With wide lenses off-center compositions is often the norm.
This effect is only at issue when working at the near-range limits of the lens, which is not where I am usually using a 75mm Summilux (or any other lens) when wide open, which is when it counts the most. When working in very close, I always stop down so that I have enough DoF to be useful. And, of course, with today's Live View on the M-P, I'd simply switch on Live View and focus wherever I needed to focus.

You and so many others complaining about this sort of thing are focusing on pixel performance of lenses. I prefer to focus on photographs. :-)

G
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Old 09-24-2015   #33
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Or it could simply be a FF, AF Leica with new lenses.
Sure. Nothing wrong with that either.

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Old 09-24-2015   #34
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Could the SL be an S-with-Less... that is, a mirrorless version of the S typ007. Accept S lenses with adapter, as its own lenses could be more compact, closer to the sensor... This would be unique in the market, expanding on the S niche.
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Old 09-24-2015   #35
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Could the SL be an S-with-Less... that is, a mirrorless version of the S typ007. Accept S lenses with adapter, as its own lenses could be more compact, closer to the sensor... This would be unique in the market, expanding on the S niche.
It wouldn't cost $8000 with a lens though would it?
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Old 09-24-2015   #36
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Conceivably $8000 without lens... Hmmm, maybe that would be too optimistic! The current S body is twice that. Ok, my speculation is unlikely.
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Old 09-24-2015   #37
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It would be nice though Doug.
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Old 09-24-2015   #38
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This effect is only at issue when working at the near-range limits of the lens, which is not where I am usually using a 75mm Summilux (or any other lens) when wide open, which is when it counts the most. When working in very close, I always stop down so that I have enough DoF to be useful. And, of course, with today's Live View on the M-P, I'd simply switch on Live View and focus wherever I needed to focus.

You and so many others complaining about this sort of thing are focusing on pixel performance of lenses. I prefer to focus on photographs. :-)

G
Near-range limit? The focus shift off the eyes is very obvious with, say, the Noctilux ASPH at 10-15 ft. I don't consider portraits without the eyes in focus as "usable" shots, especially for printing.

My go-to event lens is the 21mm Summilux which is great in tight crowds, but does not play well with center composition. 21mm is too wide unless the frame can be filled with multiple objects, which you have to choose one to focus on.

I recall that the M240 can't magnify focus in live view off-center...maybe this has changed in the M-P. Still, the ability to quickly and reliably focus off-center is not trivial.
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Old 09-24-2015   #39
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I don't know what's so baffling. Leica has diversified its products such that it is offering a similar mix to most other camera manufacturers now, that's all.
  • X and Q are new, fixed lens, digital cameras for those who eschew the expense and complexity of interchangeable lens systems cameras.
  • M is the same as it's been since the 1950s, including digital now too.
  • T is a new interchangeable lens system based on the APS-C format, lower cost than the M.
  • S is a larger format, digital replacement for the R film system.

The question is what the SL will provide in that context. If it is more direct replacement for the R system bodies and well matched to the R lenses, it has a clear position in the line.

G
Dear Godfrey, it seems to me that it is an overkill for a super-niche player like Leica to further sub-segment the market. Everytime a new product line is created, it dilutes the resources in design, planning, manufacturing, marketing, sales, and even management time. IMHO, Leica should have fewer product lines, but really excel in those lines. Just my 2 cents.
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Old 09-24-2015   #40
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Leica with its small market might just overwhelm its own fans with one too many cameras...
I think we are violently agreeing with each other
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