Adventures in Piezography
Old 12-21-2014   #1
Jager
Registered User
 
Jager is offline
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 95
Adventures in Piezography

A few thoughts about Piezography, after spending a month with it...


http://jeffreyhughes.net/wordpress/2...n-piezography/
__________________
Jeff

www.jeffhughesphoto.com (website)
http://jeffreyhughes.net/wordpress (blog)
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-21-2014   #2
charjohncarter
Registered User
 
charjohncarter's Avatar
 
charjohncarter is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Danville, CA, USA
Posts: 7,338
Thanks Jeff, photography is one endless learning curve.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-21-2014   #3
seagrove
Registered User
 
seagrove is offline
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by charjohncarter View Post
Thanks Jeff, photography is one endless learning curve.
You are absolutely right! But I do love what I am able (with my minimal skills) to produce using Jon Cone's Piezography inks in my Epson R2400. Rather than refilling cartridges I have a CIS system and just refill the bottles. Also recently had the printer professionally cleaned and I added the external waste ink bottle (again from inkjetmall.com) so I don't have to worry about that overflowing anymore!

Also added your blog to my list of frequently visited sites, Jeff!
__________________
Rich
http://www.richard-owen.com
http://meandmyx100s.blogspot.com
Yashica Electro35 GS, X-E1, XF 1,4/35mm, Nikkor 1,8/85mm AF-D & Fujifilm X100S
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-12-2015   #4
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
 
Calzone's Avatar
 
Calzone is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hell Gate, Madhattan
Age: 59
Posts: 6,837
Jeff,

Thanks for the post. Last week I set up my 3880 with a MPS K-7 warm neutral/selenium and printed for the first time digitally. Like you I bought my Monochrom two years ago, but only had the funds for a 27 inch Eizo and all the paper and inks recently.

The wait was well worth it. I found what you said about filtering and sorting though all the information to be confusing like in your experience. Download the QTR RIP and Print-Tool, but then throw away the vendor's user's manual; download the Epson driver just for the utilities and then throw away that manual also.

Took a couple of days to figure out that the curve library for Lightroom was seperate from the one for QTR and that I didn't mess up the downloads. After that discovery I found that printing was more or less straight forward. I really appreciate the smoother long tonal range, the extra shadow detail, and especially the lack of dithering/airbrushing effect that I see from K3 inksets.

Cal
__________________
"Vintage Hipster"
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-28-2015   #5
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
 
Calzone's Avatar
 
Calzone is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hell Gate, Madhattan
Age: 59
Posts: 6,837
Jeff,

UPDATE: Thus far went through a 50 sheet box of 8 1/2x11's of Jon Cone Type 5. Due to a lot of post processing of DNG files into JPEG's for "Maggie's" blog I made a great stride in technical ability. I now have a good understanding of how all the controls in LR5 work interactively.

I learned that I have to add a bit more contrast to my image to match Eizo to my 3880. At this point printing involves no guessing. I add contrast by tweaking the shadows in both the tone controls and with the tone curve. It seems that an offset can be seen when switching inbetween softproof and normal. This offset is only in the blacks so it is a reliable way to adjust. I use the clipping indicators as a visual aid for a reference because my adjustment is for slightly darker from there. My offset seems almost like the same fixed amount, and the rest of the tonal range displayed on my Eizo remains what I see.

Tonal range and detail on 8 1/2x11's scream for a much larger print. My amount of 13x19's might become limited as 17x22's are exactly twice the size of my 8 1/2x11's I would use for proofing.

Very-very pleased with the results. Some of my best money ever spent. Interesting to see a true black without a contrasty image and the full range of tone.

Cal
__________________
"Vintage Hipster"
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-28-2015   #6
Red Rock Bill
Registered User
 
Red Rock Bill is offline
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Gallup,New Mexico
Posts: 161
thanks for the post....I have a set of Cone inks waiting for me to get stuff going......I suppose the best thing to do is get with it...I was always pretty happy with my Epson 3800 and the b/w output......thanks again,Bill
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-29-2015   #7
Jager
Registered User
 
Jager is offline
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 95
Glad to hear things are going along so well, Cal. Indeed, you and I seem to be traversing the same ground!

Like you, I do all my proofing at 8 1/2 x 11. And then, for select images, I print larger at 13x19 or 17x22. I wish I had a bigger printer. Absolutely stunning results with the K7 inks...

Also like you, I am finding the clipping feature in LR to be invaluable. Much more important than when I used OEM inks and there was a lot more guesswork involved. It's a wonderful thing staring at a soft-proof on the Eizo and knowing that all those pixels just this side of going clipped will hold detail in the print. Piezography rocks.

I ordered a full set of Selenium K7 inks to go with my present Warm Neutral inkset, along with another set of refillable carts (and more JC5 paper) from inkjetmall. The box showed up late yesterday. Later today I should have my first split-toned prints coming to life. Am excited to see how that will work out!

Bill, life is short. Dive into those inks!
__________________
Jeff

www.jeffhughesphoto.com (website)
http://jeffreyhughes.net/wordpress (blog)
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-29-2015   #8
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
 
Calzone's Avatar
 
Calzone is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hell Gate, Madhattan
Age: 59
Posts: 6,837
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jager View Post
Glad to hear things are going along so well, Cal. Indeed, you and I seem to be traversing the same ground!

Like you, I do all my proofing at 8 1/2 x 11. And then, for select images, I print larger at 13x19 or 17x22. I wish I had a bigger printer. Absolutely stunning results with the K7 inks...

Also like you, I am finding the clipping feature in LR to be invaluable. Much more important than when I used OEM inks and there was a lot more guesswork involved. It's a wonderful thing staring at a soft-proof on the Eizo and knowing that all those pixels just this side of going clipped will hold detail in the print. Piezography rocks.

I ordered a full set of Selenium K7 inks to go with my present Warm Neutral inkset, along with another set of refillable carts (and more JC5 paper) from inkjetmall. The box showed up late yesterday. Later today I should have my first split-toned prints coming to life. Am excited to see how that will work out!

Bill, life is short. Dive into those inks!
Jeff,

I'm currently have a 50/50 mix in shade 4, and I like the results. Know that if I don't have the blacks boosted enough that the warmth gets a bit exaggerated.

When I nail the contrast just right the warmth becomes rather subdued. It seems the split tone transition when it is the most subtle has the strongest effect of making the image dramatically more 3-D. Warm shadows make the cool highlights really pop. It is a very delicate balance. My early attemps for broad tonal range by not boosting contrast had actually handicaped my images. A bit of shadow clipping it seems is required to create a true black.

Bill, Going with Piezography was some of my best money spent. I find that I'm printing a lot (50, 8 1/2x11's since January 7th). The level of control offered makes for stunning results. Printing is both exciting and fun. The 3800 I understand is another workhorse of a printer.

The Jon Cone Type 5 paper seems to be a superior product. My interest in other papers seems to be limited to Canson Baryta and Canson Photographique.

Not sure if I want the expense of a second or larger printer at this point. Might be more cost feasible to use PiezoPress for my ocasional 24x36 inch prints. My friend Jeff tried to keep a smaller printer going along with a 3880 and now he has problems with clogged nozzels running OEM K3 inks.

Cal
__________________
"Vintage Hipster"
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-02-2015   #9
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
 
Calzone's Avatar
 
Calzone is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hell Gate, Madhattan
Age: 59
Posts: 6,837
Jeff,

UPDATE: I ordered another 200 sheets of 8 1/2x11 Jon Cone Type 5 Baryta and 220ml of Selenium shade 3. Yesterday I blended 25% Selenium with 75% warm neutral in shade three to go with a 50-50 warm neutral/Selenium blend in shade 4.

I wanted to tone down the warmth a tad because with some files the prints are overly warm. I figured I didn't need much of a change to get the tonality I wanted, but I was very surprised by the results from such a small change. Now it seems the prints overall are much more "neutral" in that they are not overly warm. The split tone is still evident and the 3-D effect of seperation between highlights and shadows, but the transition is mucho smooth in a great way. I think I have found a sweet spot with the 25/75 shade 3 and 50/50 shade 4 that gives me the split tone I want.

My next experiment is to blend a 25/75 for shade 5 and 50/50 for shade 6 to recapture the warmth, by shifting the split into the upper mids while still maintaining cool highlights. I expect the transition to be smooth, but I am thinking the highlights might stand out more and be more pronounced.

I'm not printing high contrast, and there is only a hint of true black, but there seems to be a gelitine like glow that is wonderful to hold in the hand. I can only imagine further development in a larger print.

Cal
__________________
"Vintage Hipster"
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-02-2015   #10
Jager
Registered User
 
Jager is offline
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 95
Glad to hear it's going well, Cal. You seem to have hit on a combination that is really working for you. One of the cool things is the almost infinite variety of tonal renderings that one can conjure. I've already thought of how cool it would be to have a second printer so as to be able to run a second inkset at the same time.

I definitely hear you with how the Selenium in the lower tones moves the print more towards neutral. I love my original Warm Neutral inkset. But its hint of sepia wasn't always the best for every kind of print.

I've actually reversed my split-tone setup from what you're doing. I'm running Selenium inks in shades 1, 2, 3, and 4; and Warm Neutral inks in shades 5, 6, and 7. The shadows through to the mid-tones are much cooler, with warmth emerging as you head into the highlights. More neutral, and more akin to a silver gelatin print (and selenium printing in the darkroom, which drives that coolness into the shadows).

No mixing of channels yet, like you're doing, but I may try that at some point.

Right now I'm printing nearly every day (running through a lot of paper and ink, like you) and just enjoying the output so much. Piezography's innate tonal separation is given even more distinction when you multi-tone an image. It can be just so amazing!

I've got a 16 x 20" print in an exhibition starting later this month and I am just so happy with how it looks. I spend so much time thinking about how the final, printed product will look that it surprises me that so many otherwise good photographers give the printing end of their craft such short shrift. (But then, having said that, I shouldn't be surprised... I was one of those photographers for a long time!)
__________________
Jeff

www.jeffhughesphoto.com (website)
http://jeffreyhughes.net/wordpress (blog)
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-04-2015   #11
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
 
Calzone's Avatar
 
Calzone is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hell Gate, Madhattan
Age: 59
Posts: 6,837
Jeff,

I think you will be very surprised in how neutral a print gets with the blending I mentioned above.

Your inverse selenium to warm neutral is very appealing to me, and I think in the future I will definately try it. I'm an all or nothing kinda guy, I held off from printing even though I've owned a Monochrom for over two years. I knew for me it was going all the way or don't go. In my case I only have begun to develope any digital post processing skill.

Already I'm very happy with my results, and since I'm printing in full immersion mode I'm learn a lot. I found that using Piezography not to be so complicated and difficult. Very well engineered and designed. My next big jump will be printing 13x19 and 17x22. I'll be using Jon Cone 5 and rear feeding. My understanding is that with Jone Cone 5 there is no difficulty with Pizza Wheeling like with other papers that require front loading.

I figure it will be a few more intense months of printing before I experiment with any more changes in inks. I would refrain from getting a second printer unless you intend to fully utilize it, meaning printing at least several times a week. An idle printer runs the risk of premature death, but understand I'm already contemplating getting another 3880 or a larger printer already.

Good luck with the upcoming show.

Cal
__________________
"Vintage Hipster"
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-04-2015   #12
jsrockit
Moderator
 
jsrockit's Avatar
 
jsrockit is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: NYC
Age: 43
Posts: 17,558
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calzone View Post
My understanding is that with Jone Cone 5 there is no difficulty with Pizza Wheeling like with other papers that require front loading.
Cal, what does this term mean?
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-04-2015   #13
sweathog
Registered User
 
sweathog's Avatar
 
sweathog is offline
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London
Age: 29
Posts: 892
Interesting read, and very well written.
Certainly has made me think more about digital printing, something I had never really considered.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-04-2015   #14
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
 
Calzone's Avatar
 
Calzone is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hell Gate, Madhattan
Age: 59
Posts: 6,837
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
Cal, what does this term mean?
John,

With Piezography glossy printing there is a second printing of a gloss overcoat to eliminate gloss differential and bronzing. A print is made, then dried, then a thin layer of gloss overcoat is then printed to fully print the print. It seems that with some thick heavy "art papers" that the paper transport rollers imparts a horizontal line onto the prints. This is most visible on the blacks and dark sections of the print.

Interesting to note if you are still considering getting a printer that I would avoid desk top printers and go with a "Pro" model for the more advanced paper feed and paper transport, especially if you ever intend on making large prints. The next sized printer larger than my 3880 uses a vacuum platen to keep the paper flat. My 3880 has a good paper transport that is better than any desktop printer, but it is not the best when compared to the even larger printers.

Here's some smut that might be useful to you: understand that this gloss overcoat can be used over color ink to make color prints more vibrant. It is compatable with Epson K7 inks and Cone Color inks which can be blended. If I were you I would consider going this route and utilizing refillable carts for both performance and economy.

Understand that the printer driver I'm using is third party made by Roy Harrington (QuadtoneRIP) that lacks the dither that creates an airbrush like effect of lower resolution to make up for less shades of black. Pretty sure this driver can be used for higher performance than the OEM Epson driver for color also.

This Jon Cone type 5 Baryta paper I'm using is the slackers way because it is optimized for Piezograpghy. There is a big jump in IQ in my prints from the last time I showed you. The Jone Cone papers don't require work arounds and extra steps to avoid pizza wheels.

Cal
__________________
"Vintage Hipster"
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-04-2015   #15
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
 
Calzone's Avatar
 
Calzone is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hell Gate, Madhattan
Age: 59
Posts: 6,837
Quote:
Originally Posted by sweathog View Post
Interesting read, and very well written.
Certainly has made me think more about digital printing, something I had never really considered.
Sweathog,

I use to be a total die-hard retro B&W film only guy, but then Leica made the Monochrom. Never-ever thought I would go digital. I have been shooting my Monochrom for over two years now, and only recently have beed printing digitally (since January 2015). I still shoot mucho film, but the results, meaning prints, are compelling. Best money ever spent, and this is a guy who went to art school in the 70's.

Currently I'm also getting 20x30 inch prints made from Digital Silver Imaging which are wet prints made from Monochrom files. The results here are also stunning. On one landscape image I have a zoomed in crop (8x10) of a 40x60 ich print as a proof/sample. All of the sudden I learn that I can do a "Salgado" and wet print from a digital capture on a rediculas scale.

Anyways, not for everyone, it gets mighty expensive, but the end results are beyond expectations if you want to go there. In comparing a DSI wet print against a Piezography print: each medium is different enough that you really can't compare them. Each holds it's own, none is superior over the other, they are just different with there own merits.

Cal
__________________
"Vintage Hipster"
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-04-2015   #16
jsrockit
Moderator
 
jsrockit's Avatar
 
jsrockit is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: NYC
Age: 43
Posts: 17,558
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calzone View Post
John,

With Piezography glossy printing there is a second printing of a gloss overcoat to eliminate gloss differential and bronzing. A print is made, then dried, then a thin layer of gloss overcoat is then printed to fully print the print. It seems that with some thick heavy "art papers" that the paper transport rollers imparts a horizontal line onto the prints. This is most visible on the blacks and dark sections of the print.

Interesting to note if you are still considering getting a printer that I would avoid desk top printers and go with a "Pro" model for the more advanced paper feed and paper transport, especially if you ever intend on making large prints. The next sized printer larger than my 3880 uses a vacuum platen to keep the paper flat. My 3880 has a good paper transport that is better than any desktop printer, but it is not the best when compared to the even larger printers.

Here's some smut that might be useful to you: understand that this gloss overcoat can be used over color ink to make color prints more vibrant. It is compatable with Epson K7 inks and Cone Color inks which can be blended. If I were you I would consider going this route and utilizing refillable carts for both performance and economy.

Understand that the printer driver I'm using is third party made by Roy Harrington (QuadtoneRIP) that lacks the dither that creates an airbrush like effect of lower resolution to make up for less shades of black. Pretty sure this driver can be used for higher performance than the OEM Epson driver for color also.

This Jon Cone type 5 Baryta paper I'm using is the slackers way because it is optimized for Piezograpghy. There is a big jump in IQ in my prints from the last time I showed you. The Jone Cone papers don't require work arounds and extra steps to avoid pizza wheels.

Cal
Thanks Cal... interesting. Yes, I'm still going to get a printer. I'm just not sure which route I'm going. And thanks for the tips... I was aware of the QuadtoneRIP, but wasn't aware that there were Cone color inks.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-04-2015   #17
sweathog
Registered User
 
sweathog's Avatar
 
sweathog is offline
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London
Age: 29
Posts: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calzone View Post
Sweathog,

I use to be a total die-hard retro B&W film only guy, but then Leica made the Monochrom. Never-ever thought I would go digital. I have been shooting my Monochrom for over two years now, and only recently have beed printing digitally (since January 2015). I still shoot mucho film, but the results, meaning prints, are compelling. Best money ever spent, and this is a guy who went to art school in the 70's.

Currently I'm also getting 20x30 inch prints made from Digital Silver Imaging which are wet prints made from Monochrom files. The results here are also stunning. On one landscape image I have a zoomed in crop (8x10) of a 40x60 ich print as a proof/sample. All of the sudden I learn that I can do a "Salgado" and wet print from a digital capture on a rediculas scale.

Anyways, not for everyone, it gets mighty expensive, but the end results are beyond expectations if you want to go there. In comparing a DSI wet print against a Piezography print: each medium is different enough that you really can't compare them. Each holds it's own, none is superior over the other, they are just different with there own merits.

Cal
Thanks for that additional info Cal. Definitely food for thought. Hopefully by the end of the year I'll be in a position to try something (moving in 6 months so don't want to incur the wrath of the better half by beginning new tinkerings before then).
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-04-2015   #18
arseniii
Registered User
 
arseniii's Avatar
 
arseniii is offline
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 355
I was curious about Piezo inks for a long time now, even ordered a sample pack of prints in various ink tones. I was VERY impressed by what this system can do, great tonality and shadow detail. Would probably have to get a second hand R2000 to use with it since I want to keep an ability to do color prints on my primary printer.
__________________
More by korshe~ on Flickr and korshe.com
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-04-2015   #19
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
 
Calzone's Avatar
 
Calzone is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hell Gate, Madhattan
Age: 59
Posts: 6,837
Quote:
Originally Posted by arseniii View Post
I was curious about Piezo inks for a long time now, even ordered a sample pack of prints in various ink tones. I was VERY impressed by what this system can do, great tonality and shadow detail. Would probably have to get a second hand R2000 to use with it since I want to keep an ability to do color prints on my primary printer.
What impressed me the most is the capabilities of making digital negatives for wet contact printing. The resolution and broad tonality is that high of I.Q.

I spent about two years planning because all this required a big commitment of time and money, but the dividends are now paying off. It costs nothing to do the research to figure out what is good and works for you. Plenty of information to filter through and mine for free.

Using a desktop has its advantages because changing inks does not require wasting lots of ink due to desktop printers not having "dampers" loaded with ink. It seems that Epson inks are comparable with Jon Cone inks. The color yellow seems stuborn to flush, but you might be able to get away with one printer. Check out Piezoflush.

Cal
__________________
"Vintage Hipster"
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-04-2015   #20
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
 
Calzone's Avatar
 
Calzone is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hell Gate, Madhattan
Age: 59
Posts: 6,837
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
Thanks Cal... interesting. Yes, I'm still going to get a printer. I'm just not sure which route I'm going. And thanks for the tips... I was aware of the QuadtoneRIP, but wasn't aware that there were Cone color inks.
John,

If I were into color printing, I'd definately would go with loading my own inks to save money. Also it seems that GO (gloss overcoat) adds vibrance and detail to color prints.

I very much like QuadtoneRIP because it is very easy to use. Remember how I lack any digital skills. Simple, efficient, and effective are all good.

Cal
__________________
"Vintage Hipster"
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-04-2015   #21
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
 
Calzone's Avatar
 
Calzone is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hell Gate, Madhattan
Age: 59
Posts: 6,837
RECENT DEVELOPMENTS:

I have to order more paper and ink after having bulked up on 330ml to start initially, mostly mid-tones, to keep stocked with ink. Ran through 400 ML gloss overcoat already and I'm on my second 400 ml. I had reordered 200 sheets of 8 1/2x11 Jon Cone Type 5, but I soon discovered that the prints really open up at 13x19. Oh-well. While Jone Cone's inks might be less expensive than Epson's OEM inks, my experience is that with Peizography you might be utilizing more ink to make a print. About every two weeks I've had to top up my carts to avoid the risk of an empty cart. Once came really close.

13x19 is a good size to print on 17x22 for exhibition prints because stock frame sizes are 18x24 that allows for exposing some additional border in a mat and then allow for a generous border generated by the matte. Printing a different size will require costly custom framing if exhibition is your goal. Dealers and collectors like generous boardes to allow for museum framing (archival).

I learned that air drying and printing the "Gloss Overcoat" 24 hours later instead of forced air drying for a few minutes provides a more satin/less glossy effect. My thinking is that the GO soakes more deeply into the paper when the print is fully dried buy the 24 hour wait. Also this seems to effect the contrast and tonality where an air dried print has slightly less contrast and added warmth over a forced air dried print that is glossy. No clear winner here, but I kinda like the satin of the air dried print due to the lack of glare. The GO layer is almost transparent and is almost invisible, even on a white border.

Cal
__________________
"Vintage Hipster"
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-05-2015   #22
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
 
Calzone's Avatar
 
Calzone is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hell Gate, Madhattan
Age: 59
Posts: 6,837
Jeff,

I just got a seldom used 7800 that was sporatically used enough over its 9 year life that remains fresh. Paid $100.00 because the previous owner was moving to Japan. Only made 1802 prints before I got it.

Over the course of a week I cleaned the capping station, printed 5 test pages in a row, aligned the print heads, and flushed out all the color inks with Piezoflush using new refillable carts.

The Jon Cone carts are a bit more than a third bigger than the 220ml OEM Epson carts, and I pretty much used a gallon of Piezoflush to fill the carts and perform an initial fill. I removed the doors because they just hang open, and eventually they will get snapped off otherwise accidently.

Now I need some big dollars for paper and ink. A pretty big step for someone who only started printing digitally in January of this year. I'm going to the next level of a 24 inch Pro printer.

Cal
__________________
"Vintage Hipster"
  Reply With Quote

Old 09-03-2015   #23
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
 
Calzone's Avatar
 
Calzone is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hell Gate, Madhattan
Age: 59
Posts: 6,837
Piezography is having a 10% off sale for Labor Day. Now is the time to load up if you have the cash flow.

Cal
__________________
"Vintage Hipster"
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-30-2015   #24
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
 
Calzone's Avatar
 
Calzone is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hell Gate, Madhattan
Age: 59
Posts: 6,837
I just dropped another $3.2K in paper and ink. Since January 2015 I have spent a total of $8.2K in paper and ink.

All of a sudden that Epson 7800 that I secured for $100.00 got expensive. It is a 9 year old printer that only made 1802 prints before I got it, it somehow was used just enough to not have any maintenance issues, and is basically a fresh printer.

The 7800 has been loaded with Piezoflush for long term storage since August and will be put online soon. Not sure if I can afford to keep the 3880 going due to the costs of paper and ink, but it would be nice to have a second printer with a different inkset.

Cal
__________________
"Vintage Hipster"
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-05-2016   #25
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
 
Calzone's Avatar
 
Calzone is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hell Gate, Madhattan
Age: 59
Posts: 6,837
Been experimenting with Canson Baryta Photograpique, and Canson Platine Fibre Rag. Discovered that both papers offer the same tonality, but the Baryta Photograpic is a bit smoother intexture and makes a bit glossier print.

The bad news is that "Pizzawheeling" is evident when printing the Gloss Overcoat with the Canson papers when using a 3880. I was aware of all the reports, and now I have first hand experience. Good thing I have the 7800 with its vacuum platen for the paper transport because I really really like the look of the Canson papers. There seems to be more of a glow to the midrange with the Canson papers when compared to the Jon Cone Type 5 that I am use to. In contrast the JC Type 5 to me has the blackest black (Joe differs) and the added texture of the JC 5 makes it more like a mat paper than glossy. When the detail is in the shadows the JC 5 is the best paper, but for midrage I love the Canson.

I also have been printing on Epson Exhibition Fiber that has trace amounts of optical brightners. This paper has the glow in the highlights and offers the whitest white. Too bad about using optical brightners because otherwise I would not curb and limit its use. With my warm neutral to selenium splitone the EEF looks more like a wet print than a real fiber wet print.

So it seems that now I will more or less use the JC 5 as an art paper as being my mat paper even though it is processed as a glossy because it has a "satin" finish and is not as glossy as either the Canson papers or Epson EF.

The Baryta Photographic is cellulose and inexpensive to serve as for proofing since it matches the Platine Fibre Rag in tonality (it also has a Baryta coating). I think I need to bulk up on these papers because I think they most suit my printing.

The Epson Exhibition Fiber I will use sparingly and only when the image warrants it due to the optical brightners.

I hope to soon have the Epson 7800 online, and I think I will convert my 3880 with a Selenium inkset to have a second range of tonality on the smaller printer. With two inksets and just three papers I can do a lot of printing.

Cal
__________________
"Vintage Hipster"
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-07-2016   #26
thompsonks
Registered User
 
thompsonks is offline
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 745
Jeffrey Hughes' well-written Blog has revived my interest, but I have a question.

About a year ago I met a Piezography aficionado here on RFF and we exchanged prints from the same files. My peer group and I couldn't see a consistent improvement in his Piezo prints over my three-toned ones, but a number of variables weren't under control.

Recently, though, I read on another forum that John Cone is working on a 'Pro' version of Piezography, and if this is so – and given Jeffrey's testimony – I'd like to try again. Do you folks have information about this development?

Kirk

BTW, the blog mentions inadequacy of Cone's tiny sample prints. I bought both sets, and IMO they're just awful: besides being too small to see, they exhibit considerable inconsistency in shadow detail; and some, with a proper viewing light, even look green. I wish some more convincing samples were available.
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-08-2016   #27
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
 
Calzone's Avatar
 
Calzone is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hell Gate, Madhattan
Age: 59
Posts: 6,837
Quote:
Originally Posted by thompsonks View Post
Jeffrey Hughes' well-written Blog has revived my interest, but I have a question.

About a year ago I met a Piezography aficionado here on RFF and we exchanged prints from the same files. My peer group and I couldn't see a consistent improvement in his Piezo prints over my three-toned ones, but a number of variables weren't under control.

Recently, though, I read on another forum that John Cone is working on a 'Pro' version of Piezography, and if this is so and given Jeffrey's testimony I'd like to try again. Do you folks have information about this development?

Kirk

BTW, the blog mentions inadequacy of Cone's tiny sample prints. I bought both sets, and IMO they're just awful: besides being too small to see, they exhibit considerable inconsistency in shadow detail; and some, with a proper viewing light, even look green. I wish some more convincing samples were available.
Kirk,

I remember the comparision made on RFF a while back. A well done mat print compared to a fine OEM inkset print was basically a coin toss.

The results I had from printing Joe's (from the NYC Meet-Up) Monochrom file that I printed two ways on a 3880 loaded with my warm neutral to selenium split tone had similar but different results.

Joe had sent me a TIFF that he had post processed, and I printed that TIFF as a baseline. The image was shot in the southern end of Central Park and buildings in Columbus Circle could be seen through the trees. In the midground were some textured boulders, and the lighting was high contrast and bright, but Joe somehow made a remarkable exposure that had high contrast lighting outside of Central Park, but within Central Park had rich smooth mids. It was an exceptional shot.

I took the RAW file of the same image and performed my post processing, and perhaps I went a bit heavy handed because of my reputation as "Calzone." LOL. Let's just say that my print was very different than Joe's: first off I printed with more contrast so I had a blackler-black; I also amped up the details which adds contrast and mucho shadow detail; and then I stretched the curve for more tonality (even smoother wider midrange).

My print from the RAW file displayed a squirrel in the foreground that remained hidden in a shadow in Joe's TIFF. My print also I think printed more detail like a larger format, but Joe says the image he shot closely resembled the print that was made from the TIFF.

Joe has a 3880 loaded with the OEM inkset, and he made a print from the same TIFF to compare, and Joe reports that the two TIFF prints are kinda indistinguishable even though one is with Piezography and the other OEM (K3). In this manner these results match yours and others.

But here is where things differ greatly: using a Monochrom there is a lot more tonality and shadow detail that often goes unprinted, and this is where Piezography I think excells. Also a 3880 with its 17 inch wide limit is too small a printer for Monochrom Piezography printing and a 7800 or 7880 is really what you need to print for exhibition. Perhaps what I'm saying that if you don't print large (20x30/24x36 or even bigger) then Piezography then is not likely needed. BTW I think with some files I can print even bigger than 24x36.

Understand that I shoot kinda like a large format shooter, meaning that I try to make perfect negatives/files that could be contact printed, meaning I actually do not do a lot of post processing, and I maximize IQ at image capture. Although I am shooting small format (Monochrom) the results I print have the tonality and IQ of medium format, and sometimes with certain files (high shutter speed, perfect focus, great lighting, detailed subject....) I get large format results.

At PhotoPlusExpo I brought a 13x19 print I made to give to my friend Robert Rodreguez who is the Artist In Residence at the Canson booth, but I kinda borrowed that print to show Richard Herzog of Phase One fame who was manning the Leica SL booth. Here was a guy who shoots with a Phase One back with a view camera, and I kinda blew him away with just one print. A picture is worth more than a thousand words.

Know that I use a 27 inch EIZO that I have dimmed down to 80 Lux in a darkened room, but know that when I compare a Piezography print to the Eizo screen that there is more shadow detail and tonality in the shadows on my print than on my optimized Eizo. Basically I can print what I can't see. Also consider that I am trying to emulate large format ideally and not high contrast or high ISO photography.

As far as Jon Cone samples, I laid out a $250.00 deposit for a 13x19 Jon Cone portfolio. Out of all the prints what impressed me the most was the digital negative printed on overhead transparency film. I borrowed this portfolio about 3 years ago and since then digital negatives using Piezography has become more turnkey. My interest here is to make limited edition silver wet prints using Piezography for contact printing.

Cal
__________________
"Vintage Hipster"
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-08-2016   #28
thompsonks
Registered User
 
thompsonks is offline
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 745
Looks like both 'experiments,' rough as they were, led to the same results - which is why I was asking about newer developments from Cone that might place Piezography more clearly ahead.

On the score of print size, I wouldn't want to go there - but IMO it's a matter of taste. I don't print BW as large as you have in mind because I think of it as a 'traditional' print-form. 16x20 paper with a 12x18 print was a standard size, and 20x24 (15.5x22.5) was gigantic. I'd be sort of embarrassed to go larger - but I see no reason why anyone else should accept this old-fashioned prejudice. :-)

Kirk

PS, my Monochrom has taken a long spin into outer Leica space for a sensor replacement. But I've been getting even more advantageous files from A7rII BW conversions - equal resolution, remarkable tonal range, and the important ability to use LR/ACR sliders in converting different colors (especially helpful in landscapes). Still use MATE and WATE for consistent rendering.
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-08-2016   #29
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
 
Calzone's Avatar
 
Calzone is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hell Gate, Madhattan
Age: 59
Posts: 6,837
Quote:
Originally Posted by thompsonks View Post
On the score of print size, I wouldn't want to go there - but IMO it's a matter of taste. I don't print BW as large as you have in mind because I think of it as a 'traditional' print-form. 16x20 paper with a 12x18 print was a standard size, and 20x24 (15.5x22.5) was gigantic. I'd be sort of embarrassed to go larger - but I see no reason why anyone else should accept this old-fashioned prejudice. :-)

Kirk
Kirk,

On one hand I'm with you and 13x19: tradition and convention makes this size suitable for most of my work. I tend to print 13x19 on 17x22 for the wide borders, but some images scream to be printed crazy big. I underline the word crazy because it is both bold and outlandish.

With larger formats that I try to emulate a 18 1/2 x 18 1/2 B&W film 6x6 negative printed on 20x24 inch paper is not really gigantic where the IQ can easily print 20x20 or 24x24. With film a large format shooter once said, "With negatives like these you don't need a 4x5," and this was in referance to some of my 6x9 negatives.

Part of shooting large format is to maintain the IQ and tonality on larger prints. I'm not trying to look small format, thus I have to print larger like large format. I'm really glad that I own a 7800.

Cal
__________________
"Vintage Hipster"
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-08-2016   #30
hlockwood
Registered User
 
hlockwood is offline
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Boston metro area
Posts: 914
I disagree rather strongly, Cal, with your statement, " Perhaps what I'm saying that if you don't print large (20x30/24x36 or even bigger) then Piezography then is not likely needed. BTW I think with some files I can print even bigger than 24x36."

I have been a Piezography user for many years, and always with a desktop printer. Over the years, I've moved from an 1160 4-ink system to my current R3000 with Jon Cone's K7-N inks.

It was I who exchanged B&W prints with Kirk to compare Epson inks on his 38XX to mine using neutral K7 inks on the R3000. The primary conclusion of that exercise was that a comparison was less than meaningful because I was printing on matte paper while Kirk was printing on glossy. The blacks on glossy are definitely deeper (dMax) than on matte. (Jump in Kirk if I've misstated our results.)

I am currently printing on Canson Rag Photographique which yields the high contrast that I prefer. And the prints on 13x19 paper are outstanding.

A further note: I also avoid any resampling to avoid artifacts associated with up or down sizing; this means printing at 360 dpi for smaller prints (~8x11) and at 280 dpi for the (near) 13x19 prints. At those (Epson canonical) resolutions dpi=ppi, therefore no pixels are added to or subtracted from the original image file. Something you'll want to watch out for, Cal, in moving to very large prints from those fantastic MM files.

HFL
__________________
Harry Lockwood

Leica M7/0.85, Hexar RF, M9-P and a bunch of lenses.
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-08-2016   #31
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
 
Calzone's Avatar
 
Calzone is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hell Gate, Madhattan
Age: 59
Posts: 6,837
Quote:
Originally Posted by hlockwood View Post
I disagree rather strongly, Cal, with your statement, " Perhaps what I'm saying that if you don't print large (20x30/24x36 or even bigger) then Piezography then is not likely needed. BTW I think with some files I can print even bigger than 24x36."

I have been a Piezography user for many years, and always with a desktop printer. Over the years, I've moved from an 1160 4-ink system to my current R3000 with Jon Cone's K7-N inks.

It was I who exchanged B&W prints with Kirk to compare Epson inks on his 38XX to mine using neutral K7 inks on the R3000. The primary conclusion of that exercise was that a comparison was less than meaningful because I was printing on matte paper while Kirk was printing on glossy. The blacks on glossy are definitely deeper (dMax) than on matte. (Jump in Kirk if I've misstated our results.)

I am currently printing on Canson Rag Photographique which yields the high contrast that I prefer. And the prints on 13x19 paper are outstanding.

A further note: I also avoid any resampling to avoid artifacts associated with up or down sizing; this means printing at 360 dpi for smaller prints (~8x11) and at 280 dpi for the (near) 13x19 prints. At those (Epson canonical) resolutions dpi=ppi, therefore no pixels are added to or subtracted from the original image file. Something you'll want to watch out for, Cal, in moving to very large prints from those fantastic MM files.

HFL
Harry,

Thanks for your response and clarity.

I failed to mention because I am printing glossy that "Pizzawheeling" has become an artifact that comes out especially on Canson papers which I really like. I kinda stuck with Jon Cone Type 5 to avoid this issue, but sometimes it happens anyways, particularly in big sections of black. I discovered this becomes less pronounced if I let the print air dry for a day before printing the gloss overcoat. I think air drying gives me a flatter print. Sometimes the Pizzawheeling is a sign of a slight clogging and a cleaning seems to clear the artifact.

The only way to avoid "pizzawheeling" entirely when printing glossy is to print with a "Pro" printer that utilizes a vacuum platen. Of course you do not have this limitation since you print mat.

I agree with you that 13x19 is a great image size. The results are truely stunning. I'm not saying that every image would be better or appropriate to be printed on a mammoth scale, but some do. It is rather crazy how big one can print because at a certain point it gets crazy expensive.

At the Leica booth the group of guys manning the SL booth were truely stunned by my 13x19. It is just one of those exceptional prints/images.

Interesting to note that the Jon Cone Type 5 to me has a satin finish while the Canson Baryta Photographique and Canson Platine Fibre Rag that both me and Robert Rodreguez seem to favor are more of a true glossy. I'm a new Piezography printer (almost a year and a quarter), I never printed digitally before, but I bought my Monochrom over three years ago when it was first released.

I would not have spent the big money if I did not think that Piezography was the best for me, but I also have to respect others who have not reported seeing a difference like my friend Joe and others on this forum. You and I are guys that have made Piezography work for us, but in different ways. I also am trying to provide useful information because Piezography isn't for everyone. Although I have not been printing long I have printed a lot in that time burning through $5K worth of paper and ink in one year alone, and I just restocked with more paper and ink taking advantage of a Christmas sale and bout another $3.2K worth of paper and ink.

Happy printing.

Cal
__________________
"Vintage Hipster"
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-08-2016   #32
Jerevan
Recycled User
 
Jerevan's Avatar
 
Jerevan is offline
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 976
I just have to ask ... maybe it is you Cal, but isn't this a very expensive adventure?

From what is written here, it seems to be an A-level investment requiring a financial sponsorship. Granted that the results are stellar and one may "need the best", but all the equipment, huge screens, big printers, papers, ink ...

Or can you "cut corners" and get 95% of the results for much less money, when printing say 8x10" to 11x14"?

I am not trying to start an argument, I am just genuinely curious.
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-08-2016   #33
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
 
Calzone's Avatar
 
Calzone is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hell Gate, Madhattan
Age: 59
Posts: 6,837
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerevan View Post
I just have to ask ... maybe it is you Cal, but isn't this a very expensive adventure?

From what is written here, it seems to be an A-level investment requiring a financial sponsorship. Granted that the results are stellar and one may "need the best", but all the equipment, huge screens, big printers, papers, ink ...

Or can you "cut corners" and get 95% of the results for much less money, when printing say 8x10" to 11x14"?

I am not trying to start an argument, I am just genuinely curious.
J,

Many people print without a calibrated monitor, but I don't. To me printing without one is like printing blind because you can get pretty close to what a print will look like with a calibrated monitor. Basically I owned and used my Monochrom for two years without printing to save up for the Eizo ($2.3K) because this was important to me.

Not many are necessarily printing for exhibition, none the less want to print big. I would say not everyone even prints.

I am not one to settle for less, I worked hard for a long time to get to this point, and perhaps for me it is a great investment of my rather modest resources because all of this is important to me. Basically I don't mind eating nut butter sandwiches at work for lunch every day to live life without compromise in regards to photography.

Your question is kinda like why shoot an expensive Leica when there are cheaper cameras. Also I think I am getting use of the advances that Jon Cone performed that are well suited for me. For some shooting the Leica makes them happy. For me Piezography also makes me happy.

Anyways you ask a good questions that every serious photographer should answer for themselves: what is the best tool for the job, and what will make me happy. All kinda personal.

I can't tell you how pleased I am with the results. The prints really speak for themselves. I never thought it could be this good, and that I could actually afford it, abid with sacrifice.

As far as my expenses for paper and ink, my expenses are high because I print a lot, and it creates great joy to get results that exceed what I originally envisioned.

Cal
__________________
"Vintage Hipster"
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-08-2016   #34
Jerevan
Recycled User
 
Jerevan's Avatar
 
Jerevan is offline
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 976
Cal,

Good to hear how you feel about it and what you care about - like eating nut butter sandwiches

I guess I am just trying to grasp (for myself) what my own best tools are and how to achieve what I want. Thanks for the insight.
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-08-2016   #35
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
 
Calzone's Avatar
 
Calzone is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hell Gate, Madhattan
Age: 59
Posts: 6,837
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerevan View Post
Cal,

Good to hear how you feel about it and what you care about - like eating nut butter sandwiches

I guess I am just trying to grasp (for myself) what my own best tools are and how to achieve what I want. Thanks for the insight.
J,

Everyone is different. Getting what works for you is the only thing that is important.

Also know I have friends who buy new cameras all the time, and this is their style. Basically it works for them.

Know that I'm an old B&W film guy who went to art school decades ago with a day job. At 58 years old at this point in my life I splurge because I don't have as many decades left. Also the gear I buy are keepers that I intend to keep for the rest of my life. Even the Epson 7800 is rebuildable, and if I want to keep it going for decades basically I can. Already downloaded the service manual. I purposely seek gear that has "legs" meaning stuff that will be durable over the long haul, is not disposable, and can be fixed or repaired.

Your values and who you are will manifest itself through your gear and what you do. The best advice if you want to be an artist is avoid what other people are doing, and this is the best way to stand out as an individual. Best of luck.

Cal
__________________
"Vintage Hipster"
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-08-2016   #36
gdmcclintock
Registered User
 
gdmcclintock's Avatar
 
gdmcclintock is offline
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: New York
Posts: 470
"At 58 years old at this point in my life I splurge because I don't have as many decades left."

Yes! At 63 I know I'll be lucky to make pictures for another 17 years before I lose my marbles.

It's always time to concentrate on what's important.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Calzone View Post
J, Everyone is different. Getting what works for you is the only thing that is important. Also know I have friends who buy new cameras all the time, and this is their style. Basically it works for them. Know that I'm an old B&W film guy who went to art school decades ago with a day job. At 58 years old at this point in my life I splurge because I don't have as many decades left. Also the gear I buy are keepers that I intend to keep for the rest of my life. Even the Epson 7800 is rebuildable, and if I want to keep it going for decades basically I can. Already downloaded the service manual. I purposely seek gear that has "legs" meaning stuff that will be durable over the long haul, is not disposable, and can be fixed or repaired. Your values and who you are will manifest itself through your gear and what you do. The best advice if you want to be an artist is avoid what other people are doing, and this is the best way to stand out as an individual. Best of luck. Cal
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-08-2016   #37
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
 
Calzone's Avatar
 
Calzone is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hell Gate, Madhattan
Age: 59
Posts: 6,837
Quote:
Originally Posted by gdmcclintock View Post
"At 58 years old at this point in my life I splurge because I don't have as many decades left."

Yes! At 63 I know I'll be lucky to make pictures for another 17 years before I lose my marbles.

It's always time to concentrate on what's important.
George,

We both have lived interesting lives. The key here is not to have regrets.

Cal
__________________
"Vintage Hipster"
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-08-2016   #38
gdmcclintock
Registered User
 
gdmcclintock's Avatar
 
gdmcclintock is offline
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: New York
Posts: 470
Sounds like your life as a fashion/street photographer is more interesting than mine is, Cal!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calzone View Post
George,

We both have lived interesting lives. The key here is not to have regrets.

Cal
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-08-2016   #39
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
 
Calzone's Avatar
 
Calzone is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hell Gate, Madhattan
Age: 59
Posts: 6,837
Quote:
Originally Posted by gdmcclintock View Post
Sounds like your life as a fashion/street photographer is more interesting than mine is, Cal!
George,

I have had a very disrupted life with many stumbles, stops and starts. I am very deeply jealous of you being a Jazz musician who had the courage to live the life.

I have a great pair of hands, but anxiety and other difficulties that make me a good photographer with some obsessive traits prevent me from being the guitar player I would like to be. I wish I could be like a drummer to keep a beat and multitask.

You my friend have something special.

Cal
__________________
"Vintage Hipster"
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-08-2016   #40
thompsonks
Registered User
 
thompsonks is offline
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 745
Oh to be as young as you guys!

I've received answers from Jon Cone to my question about what's forthcoming, and he didn't say it was Top Secret or even confidential, so here are his 3 points:

1. Re: the rumor of a new Pro system, he's aiming for April;

2. He'll have a version in a couple of weeks for Epson P600, but won't have one for P800 because it can use none but Epson inks.

3. The Canon project from a number of years back was abandoned because once a Canon printer has been used for color inks, it can't be cleaned/purged/converted for other inks. I'm particularly sorry about this because I have an idle Canon 6300 with vacuum pump that I was hoping could be converted.

Let me assure you and Harry that I haven't given up and do plan to try Piezo printing when the new products are available. I could use a P600 and limit myself to 13x19, but sometimes I merge files into a square and would like to be able to do 14x14" on 17" paper (same image area as 2:3 format printed 11.5x17.25" on 13x19"). So my best bet is to keep waiting to see what printers the Pro system is designed to use best. Maybe I can abandon the 24" Canon and replace it with a used 7xxx Epson with vacuum, if that's really what works best.

Anyway I'll keep reading your experiences and Jeff's blog regularly, and with thanks.

Kirk
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:13.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.