Old 11-07-2014   #41
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part of my 'problem' is that i like most cameras when it comes to feel or use...i set every camera i have used the same way...aperture priority and keep the settings simple...but i get bored and want to try something else...i know it hasn't changed the quality or style of my output but i like changing things up on occasion...
the xe1 is slow in focus but it has never bothered me...i like the feel of that simple small body and love the lenses i have...it's not the camera at fault...it's me...
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Old 11-07-2014   #42
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I bought an M9 two years ago and haven't been tempted by another camera since. The RX1 looks great, but it's been a welcome relief to stop thinking about the camera platform altogether and instead just have fun choosing a lens to take out for the day.
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Old 11-07-2014   #43
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Re: the comment of too many options - I'm curious - do you have to look at all the options, every time you use a camera?
It depends on the camera. Some cameras with lots of options allow you to work them simply and easily. Others require a lot of remembering which menu/knob/button worked in conjunction with what control affects a simple and necessary setting.

The Leica X came out of the box and, without cracking open the manual at all, I had it completely configured and taking pictures the way I wanted it to work in less than three minutes. I did read the manual, learned a couple of nuances, and could put the camera down for a year, pick it up again, and remember everything. That's the value of not providing too many options and of making the controls and menus simple, direct: easy to learn, easy to use, easy to remember. (The same is true for the M9.)

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Old 11-07-2014   #44
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It depends on the camera. Some cameras with lots of options allow you to work them simply and easily. Others require a lot of remembering which menu/knob/button worked in conjunction with what control affects a simple and necessary setting.

The Leica X came out of the box and, without cracking open the manual at all, I had it completely configured and taking pictures the way I wanted it to work in less than three minutes. I did read the manual, learned a couple of nuances, and could put the camera down for a year, pick it up again, and remember everything. That's the value of not providing too many options and of making the controls and menus simple, direct: easy to learn, easy to use, easy to remember. (The same is true for the M9.)

G
I seem to have managed just fine, setting it (the RX1R) up to shoot RAW, setting a ceiling for the ISO and selecting Aperture Priority. Probably took me two minutes

Not sure where people are getting the idea that the RX1 menu is complicated. It has tabs for various sub menus and you scroll left or right, up or down and select where required. Pretty much like every other camera. Given I don't shoot video, that's one of the seven tabs I can ignore.

Anyhoo, I'm not trying to convince anyone - just clearing up some possible misconceptions. I sold the RX1 once. Regretted it almost instantly (replacing it with a DSLR). Ditched that and have gone back to the RX1R. Couldn't be happier.

I would have bought into the X, but I was a little galled when I learned that the pseudo-Summilux lens, its main selling point, can't be shot wide open given certain situations. No point lauding about simple manual controls when they can't over-ride crappy thinking and firmware.
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Old 11-07-2014   #45
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Well, Sony menus do have a lot of options... and many pages. However, the only time I go into my menus (after my initial set-up) with my A7r is to format my card.
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Old 11-07-2014   #46
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However, the only time I go into my menus (after my initial set-up) with my A7r is to format my card.
Thats what I said
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Old 11-07-2014   #47
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Well, Sony menus do have a lot of options... and many pages. However, the only time I go into my menus (after my initial set-up) with my A7r is to format my card.
The Format command is my most used menu command on nearly any camera once I've got the camera configured to my preferences. On most cameras, it's either right up top or right at the bottom of the menu structure, where you can find it with three button presses.

I have to constantly hunt for the format command on the A7 because it's buried somewhere around page five of seven in the Setup menu rather than being in a more memorable location or easier to find. There are about four other Sony A7 menu commands that are essential for my use, and all of them are buried somewhere not easily remembered. It's a pain when you've put the A7 down for a bit.

By comparison, the Olympus E-M1 places the format command right at the top of the shooting menu, where you'd expect it to be, first thing you see when you press the menu button. The Leica M9, X2, and X all have it two up from the bottom of their linear menus so it's tap menu, up, and up and you're ready to format your card. Easy to find, easy to remember, fast.

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Old 11-07-2014   #48
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I seem to have managed just fine, setting it (the RX1R) up to shoot RAW, setting a ceiling for the ISO and selecting Aperture Priority. Probably took me two minutes

Not sure where people are getting the idea that the RX1 menu is complicated. It has tabs for various sub menus and you scroll left or right, up or down and select where required. Pretty much like every other camera. Given I don't shoot video, that's one of the seven tabs I can ignore.

Anyhoo, I'm not trying to convince anyone - just clearing up some possible misconceptions. I sold the RX1 once. Regretted it almost instantly (replacing it with a DSLR). Ditched that and have gone back to the RX1R. Couldn't be happier.
I'm glad you're happy with it. To me, the Sony menus are a mess. I have an A7 and find it galling to find anything in them, far more annoying than the much more complex Olympus E-M1. Luckily, I only use the Sony one way ... as a body for my Leica R and Nikkor lenses ... so I minimize my need to use the menus. But the four-five settings I do need to change now and then are well buried in the mess.

All this about menus being said, the main thing I disliked about the Sony is the fact that the body is too small for the lens and leaves nowhere for my hands to sit without making it bigger with grips and other doodads. I found it a very awkward camera to use.

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I would have bought into the X, but I was a little galled when I learned that the pseudo-Summilux lens, its main selling point, can't be shot wide open given certain situations. No point lauding about simple manual controls when they can't over-ride crappy thinking and firmware.
Sigh. Sorry you feel that way, you've missed a superb camera. It's the right size and shape, everything falls to my fingers beautifully, and the Summilux lens is awesome. Using it after the RX1 is like night and day ... it's that much better for me.

BTW, There's only one situation where f1.7 is not available: when the focus is set to less than 1.2m. The aperture is programmed to close down to f/2.8 on a curve from 1.2 to 0.4 meters distance and then hold that wide open setting to 0.2 meters. It's simple, it's constant, it's not confusing, and it does nothing but improve the performance of the camera. I guess a lot of people prefer bragging rights over image quality. Shame on Leica for not realizing that.

I guess that's why there are so many different cameras on the market...

G
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Old 11-07-2014   #49
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Bragging rights? Not really sure what there is to brag about. It's just I'd rather decide what to do with my camera than someone else. Not a big ask really. I'm not entirely convinced that the X's IQ betters the RX1 either.

Edit : And out of interest, and not that I'm being picky, but how do you know that the X stopping down improves its performance when you've never used it where it doesn't? You'll never know, as that choice has not been offered to you.
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Old 11-07-2014   #50
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I'm glad you're happy with it. To me, the Sony menus are a mess. I have an A7 and find it galling to find anything in them, far more annoying than the much more complex Olympus E-M1. Luckily, I only use the Sony one way ... as a body for my Leica R and Nikkor lenses ... so I minimize my need to use the menus. But the four-five settings I do need to change now and then are well buried in the mess.

All this about menus being said, the main thing I disliked about the Sony is the fact that the body is too small for the lens and leaves nowhere for my hands to sit without making it bigger with grips and other doodads. I found it a very awkward camera to use.



Sigh. Sorry you feel that way, you've missed a superb camera. It's the right size and shape, everything falls to my fingers beautifully, and the Summilux lens is awesome. Using it after the RX1 is like night and day ... it's that much better for me.

BTW, There's only one situation where f1.7 is not available: when the focus is set to less than 1.2m. The aperture is programmed to close down to f/2.8 on a curve from 1.2 to 0.4 meters distance and then hold that wide open setting to 0.2 meters. It's simple, it's constant, it's not confusing, and it does nothing but improve the performance of the camera. I guess a lot of people prefer bragging rights over image quality. Shame on Leica for not realizing that.

I guess that's why there are so many different cameras on the market...

G
For the A7, have your tried a half-grip? Mine is a bit uncomfortable to hold before I put a Gariz grip on, but perfect in size after. The grip also color-codes the bodies I have, so I immediately know if I've picked up the A7 or the A7s...I use M lenses, though, but heavy ones nonetheless.

With regard to the menus, my only wish is that they would allow a hotkey for switching silent shooting on with the A7S. On the A7 I rarely change anything except shutter speed and iso.
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Old 11-07-2014   #51
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Bragging rights? Not really sure what there is to brag about. It's just I'd rather decide what to do with my camera than someone else. Not a big ask really. I'm not entirely convinced that the X's IQ betters the RX1 either.

Edit : And out of interest, and not that I'm being picky, but how do you know that the X stopping down improves its performance when you've never used it where it doesn't? You'll never know, as that choice has not been offered to you.
I completely agree. The lens could be as soft as an uncoated pre-war sonnar with alignment issues, and I would still want Leica to offer the option of opening it up. The X100 lens is pretty soft at f2, but I still appreciate it being able to be used at f2 and close up. Makes for some interesting effects.
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Old 11-07-2014   #52
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Bragging rights? Not really sure what there is to brag about. It's just I'd rather decide what to do with my camera than someone else. Not a big ask really. I'm not entirely convinced that the X's IQ betters the RX1 either.
I'm not convinced about the performance one way or the other either. I think it's a toss up. The X does focus closer, and in my experience has lovely bokeh at wide open from closest focus on out.

You can always only do what the manufacturer allows the camera to do. That's the bottom line. There are certainly restrictions on the RX1's behavior as well, like the rather strange 11-bit encoding on the raw files (like the A7/r/s).

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Edit : And out of interest, and not that I'm being picky, but how do you know that the X stopping down improves its performance when you've never used it where it doesn't? You'll never know, as that choice has not been offered to you.
I don't find it important to know that detail. All I find important is that it works beautifully, and has cost me nothing in terms of usability. I want to make photographs with it, not analyze its operation. :-)

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Old 11-07-2014   #53
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For the A7, have your tried a half-grip? Mine is a bit uncomfortable to hold before I put a Gariz grip on, but perfect in size after. The grip also color-codes the bodies I have, so I immediately know if I've picked up the A7 or the A7s...I use M lenses, though, but heavy ones nonetheless.
I wasn't referring to the A7 when it comes to grip, I was referring to the RX1.

The A7 is clunky but fits my hands ok. I use mostly Leica R and Nikkor lenses on it, with the adapter tubes they balance beautifully and the camera has lots of gripping area.

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Old 11-07-2014   #54
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I completely agree. The lens could be as soft as an uncoated pre-war sonnar with alignment issues, and I would still want Leica to offer the option of opening it up. The X100 lens is pretty soft at f2, but I still appreciate it being able to be used at f2 and close up. Makes for some interesting effects.
To each their own. I have plenty of soft and "entertaining rendering" lenses that I can use with my other cameras. ;-)

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Old 11-07-2014   #55
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If I am shooting digital it is B&W with Monochrom and colour with RX-1 and I can't talk highly enough about the RX-1 files. Also being fixed lens you don't get any of the dust issues you get with Leica. Colours are great, size is great and I shoot a lot of ground level shots so the EVF is great for me. Have fingers crossed that the rumoured RX-2 could come out with a zoom lens. I would be on that list.
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Old 11-07-2014   #56
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The Format command is my most used menu command on nearly any camera once I've got the camera configured to my preferences. On most cameras, it's either right up top or right at the bottom of the menu structure, where you can find it with three button presses.
Because I only go into the menus for formatting, it is right there when I go into the menus... still there from the last time I used it.

I can understand both sides. Sony menus are convoluted and Leica menus are simple. However, depending on how you use your camera, this may not matter... that was my point. You own the A7, so in your usage, it does. I can respect that. However, the way Black uses his, which sounds like the way I do, menus do not come into play much.

And speaking of limitations... in shutter priority, the A7r defaults to F/4 even when using a F/1.8 lens.
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Old 11-07-2014   #57
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I have been in your shoes.

Joe,

I think you should consider the following three things when comparing an M9 with multiple lenses to a RX1 with a fixed 35mm lens.

First, of course, will you be happy with just a 35mm lens? So you need to ponder whether the RX1’s very nice 35mm f2 lens will be sufficient for you. Or will you want other focal lengths, faster lenses, etc.?

Second, do you need higher ISO for your shooting? While the RX1 is definitely much better at higher ISO, I'd take an M9 with CCD at lower ISO any day.

Third, what type of user experience do you like? This is a big deal and very subjective to how you shoot, what you like, etc. If you want excellent manual focus and simplicity in operation, a Leica rangefinder is your best bet. If you like automization and lots of options, get the RX1 (with external finder).

Anyway, this is all incredibly subjective. There are so many great cameras today, and people can make great images with any of them, including the M9 and RX1. It really comes down to what YOU want and what YOU like (pardon the CAPS).

Good luck,

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Old 11-08-2014   #58
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money is the real problem here...or lack of it...i'd really like to keep the fujis, get an m9 and the rx1 and use them as my whims prevail...but reality says pick one and go forward with it.

i've had the fujis for quite a while now and still enjoy them but the pull for something different is strong.
How about a Fuji X100? You could trade an XE for one. That would bring you much closer to the rf shooting experience than an RX1.
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Old 11-08-2014   #59
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How about a Fuji X100? You could trade an XE for one. That would bring you much closer to the rf shooting experience than an RX1.
i wonder…that might work...
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Old 11-08-2014   #60
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Hi Joe

Have you tried a Ricoh GR ?
It might really surprise you.
If you're looking to freshen up your interest and eye with new gear it may really do the trick.
A great little camera with killer IQ and... one that does not break the bank!
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Old 11-08-2014   #61
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m9 loses in every aspect if you ask.. But it sometimes does render colors in a more unique way. If you buy M9 try stick with newest 35 summicron asph. I did side by side comparing tests using zm35/2, rx1 is better hands down
Trust technology, digital era do not buy old stuff lol
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Old 11-08-2014   #62
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Hi Joe

Have you tried a Ricoh GR ?
It might really surprise you.
If you're looking to freshen up your interest and eye with new gear it may really do the trick.
A great little camera with killer IQ and... one that does not break the bank!
IMO the GR, RX1 and M9 offer significantly different shooting experience, so they cannot really be compared to one another directly. I agree with your recommendation that Joe should at least take a look at the GR/Coolpix A, though, since it is a rather unique and nice experience.

The RX1R is about the maximum amount of versatility in a fixed prime body. Compromises are there (the complex menus), but it handles high iso, has extremely detailed output at lower iso levels, can have OOF when you want it, and is borderline pocketable...The GR and Coolpix A are all about discreetness and speed in street photography. It cries to be used pre-focused and at waist level, discreetly snapping away in the city. But if you want to set up and focus each shot, both can be a bit on the slow side. 28mm FOV can also be a bit wide as an all-purpose travel camera.

So the question might come down to how much street photography is involved, and how one shoots street in general.
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Old 11-08-2014   #63
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Hi Victor

I agree the GR does not really compare to either the RX1 or M9.
Maybe a bit to the RX1 as a af LCD screened P+S (no built in OVF or EVF).
It's a great creative tool though and has invigorated the wide FOV for me.
As you say. It's very much tailored for street photography and waist level use.
Easy to pre-focus and does a great job create beautiful flexible Hi-IQ RAW files and, very nice ooc jpegs (although I always shoot RAW).

Cheers
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Old 11-08-2014   #64
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as others have said, the rx1 is only sensible if you'll be good with shooting a fixed lens camera versus the flexibility you have with your fuji set-up. attractive concept in its simplicity, but not for me unless i could have several rx1 bodies with, say, 21/35/75 lenses on them.
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Old 11-08-2014   #65
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Hi Joe

Have you tried a Ricoh GR ?
It might really surprise you.
If you're looking to freshen up your interest and eye with new gear it may really do the trick.
A great little camera with killer IQ and... one that does not break the bank!
i had the original grd digital…great little camera! loved the snap focus...
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Old 11-08-2014   #66
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i had the original grd digital…great little camera! loved the snap focus...
The latest apsc model might blow your mind. Same size as all of the other GRd's with a large sensor. The files are wicked good!
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Old 11-08-2014   #67
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The latest apsc model might blow your mind. Same size as all of the other GRd's with a large sensor. The files are wicked good!
i should look into it…have not been following amything but fuji lately.
also thinking of putting a roll of film in my old oly 35rc for the heck of it...
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Old 11-08-2014   #68
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Maybe another camera?

I'm looking at the Panasonic LX100 as my next one. Seems to be getting very good reviews



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Old 11-08-2014   #69
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...but i get bored and want to try something else...
It's always fun to read these sorts of threads. Everyone will recommend either what they own or what they personally prefer and defend it to the death. That's understandable, it's human nature (I sometimes get caught up in it all, too.) But we also all know that every one of the cameras mentioned here are highly capable of producing exceptional imagery and with only nuanced differences (and with differences that the viewer will never notice or care about; it's only the photographer him/herself who might notice or care about. )

imho, the answer to these sorts of 'dilemmas' (and the cure for 'boredom of the gear') is just grab something that works (none will be 'perfect' anyway) and dive into a long term project with a major end product in mind (exhibition, grant proposal, book, web production, etc..) When the energy goes in that direction then the camera 'disappears' and the g.a.s. disease goes away.
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Old 11-08-2014   #70
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The latest apsc model might blow your mind. Same size as all of the other GRd's with a large sensor. The files are wicked good!
Have to agree, the output from the GR is superb
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Old 11-09-2014   #71
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It's always fun to read these sorts of threads. Everyone will recommend either what they own or what they personally prefer and defend it to the death. That's understandable, it's human nature (I sometimes get caught up in it all, too.) But we also all know that every one of the cameras mentioned here are highly capable of producing exceptional imagery and with only nuanced differences (and with differences that the viewer will never notice or care about; it's only the photographer him/herself who might notice or care about. )

imho, the answer to these sorts of 'dilemmas' (and the cure for 'boredom of the gear') is just grab something that works (none will be 'perfect' anyway) and dive into a long term project with a major end product in mind (exhibition, grant proposal, book, web production, etc..) When the energy goes in that direction then the camera 'disappears' and the g.a.s. disease goes away.
Well said.
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Old 11-09-2014   #72
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Originally Posted by VertovSvilova View Post
It's always fun to read these sorts of threads. Everyone will recommend either what they own or what they personally prefer and defend it to the death. That's understandable, it's human nature (I sometimes get caught up in it all, too.) But we also all know that every one of the cameras mentioned here are highly capable of producing exceptional imagery and with only nuanced differences (and with differences that the viewer will never notice or care about; it's only the photographer him/herself who might notice or care about. )

imho, the answer to these sorts of 'dilemmas' (and the cure for 'boredom of the gear') is just grab something that works (none will be 'perfect' anyway) and dive into a long term project with a major end product in mind (exhibition, grant proposal, book, web production, etc..) When the energy goes in that direction then the camera 'disappears' and the g.a.s. disease goes away.
Or, lacking motivation for a serious project, fool around with "not-so-serious" stuff: box/toy cameras, pinhole, Polaroid/Instax, flatbed scanner as still life camera, one of those build-your-own large format kits...

Modern digital cameras are boring by their very nature – with each technological and ergonomical improvement, they grow more predictable, dependable. There's little room for surprise. You push the button and you know pretty much exactly what you're going to get. This is excellent news for production/professional work, but not so great for play. Jumping from one camera to another similar one will buy you a couple of months worth of gear-related excitement and then you'll gradually settle into boredom and/or GAS pains again. Seriously – my recommendation is not to look for some new approximation of perfection in expensive gear but to allow some elements of chance, play, surprise in your process.
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Old 11-09-2014   #73
helenhill
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Wow I very much like 'ottluuk' perspective and quite abit of truth to
"there's little room for surprise"
"my recommendation is not to look for some new approximation for perfection in expensive gear but to allow some elements of chance,play, surprise in your process"

Damn you 'ottluuk' , Where were You when I bought the M-E

Great outlook !
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Old 11-09-2014   #74
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Originally Posted by back alley View Post
been thinking about selling my gear and going with an m9 and 35 mm lens...but then got to thinking about a used sony rx1... much the same thing, no? full frame, very small, excellent 35 mm lens attached...

thoughts?
To my mind it's a no brainer.

RX1r is one trick pony with many annoyances. MF is terrible on the thing. EVF or LCD gives me headaches.

For pure photography the M9 is the best digital camera ever made by anyone anywhere. Finally many can afford it. I've had mine for nine months and now wince at using the A7.

Yes, at f/2 35mm RX1 makes good images. It's also very compact, which is great. Not comparable really to a platform tuned to the best glass in the world 12 to 135mm, from 1932 to 2014

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Old 11-09-2014   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by helenhill_HH View Post
Wow I very much like 'ottluuk' perspective and quite abit of truth to
"there's little room for surprise"
"my recommendation is not to look for some new approximation for perfection in expensive gear but to allow some elements of chance,play, surprise in your process"

Damn you 'ottluuk' , Where were You when I bought the M-E

Great outlook !
Indeed, this concept is why I have both excellent, modern digital and film gear as well as a closet full of old Polaroids, 'toy' cameras, and pinhole oddities. Even good film and digital cameras can be urged into a certain amount of variability by stressing the recording medium to its limits.

It's all good. Don't regret your M-E! :-)

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Old 11-09-2014   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ottluuk View Post
Or, lacking motivation for a serious project, fool around with "not-so-serious" stuff: box/toy cameras, pinhole, Polaroid/Instax, flatbed scanner as still life camera, one of those build-your-own large format kits...

Modern digital cameras are boring by their very nature – with each technological and ergonomical improvement, they grow more predictable, dependable. There's little room for surprise. You push the button and you know pretty much exactly what you're going to get. This is excellent news for production/professional work, but not so great for play. Jumping from one camera to another similar one will buy you a couple of months worth of gear-related excitement and then you'll gradually settle into boredom and/or GAS pains again. Seriously – my recommendation is not to look for some new approximation of perfection in expensive gear but to allow some elements of chance, play, surprise in your process.
when bored with my current kit i tend to pull out the little zoom (24-70 equiv.) and play with it…i almost always come home with at least one shot i like.

[IMG]11.08.14.xe1.16-50.snow bike by back alley images, on Flickr[/IMG]
from yesterday, morning snow storm...
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Old 11-09-2014   #77
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LOVE it Joe ...a Winter Wonderland !
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Old 11-09-2014   #78
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thanks helen…we have many winter bikers around here...
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