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View Poll Results: Vignetting: Is it a dirty word?
I hate vignetting 20 7.14%
I don't mind some vignetting but not all the time 172 61.43%
I like a lens that vignettes 73 26.07%
Doesn't bother me, I'll just fix it in post 12 4.29%
It sounds too painful to think about 3 1.07%
Voters: 280. You may not vote on this poll

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Vignetting: Is it a dirty word?
Old 02-15-2014   #1
lawrence
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Vignetting: Is it a dirty word?

Does vignetting annoy you? Is there any place for a lens that vignettes? Any other thoughts about vignetting?
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Old 02-15-2014   #2
2WK
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In the Julius Shulman documentary there is a scene where Julius is arguing with his assistant about vignetting that is pretty funny. His assistant is saying something like, "oh this lens is great because it has zero vignetting"
Julius: "oh well I always use vignetting"
His assistant is kind of shocked: "oh, I NEVER use vignetting!"
Julius, getting annoyed...ends the conversation: "That's why people like my pictures!"
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Old 02-15-2014   #3
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You can see vignetting on the upper corners of some of Eugene Atget's photographs, probably because the lens he used didn't have enough coverage for front rise. He printed full-plate and sold his prints to painters etc., so he didn't care -- the artist wouldn't include it. When I accidentally get vignetting (shift lens on 35mm shifted too far, wrong lens hood) I sometimes leave it in the print when it's effective, sort of like burning in the corners.
Of course Atget was one of the great photographers and I see the vignetting as an interesting indication of the old-fashioned, limited equipment he used.
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Old 02-15-2014   #4
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Vignetting is a way of saying, that the lens you have is actually not fit for the format it's sold for. Having said that, I actually like some lenses that vignette, because I have been conditioned to dislike pure white corners in my photos. One of lenses I really like, is the Pentax 645 55/2.8 lens, that really vignets significantly when shot wide open, even on B&W film.

MF20130113 by mfogiel, on Flickr
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Old 02-15-2014   #5
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Only special design lenses can be made 100% free of vignetting (like the photolithography lenses which are tele-centric) - and NONE of these are photographic lenses. There is the light fall-off because of the geometrical effects and there is mechanical vignetting. The first is physics and will always be there and the second is result of a trade-off between cost, size and optical performance (lens that mechanically vignettes wide-open may have actually bette optical performance than one with the same design that does not).

Only time when I really object vignetting up to very last bit of it is when I am trying to make stitch-panoramas. Otherwise a little of it mostly adds to the image. Too much of it usually does not.
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Old 02-15-2014   #6
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i think it can sometimes frame/focus an image nicely...
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Old 02-15-2014   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by back alley View Post
i think it can sometimes frame/focus an image nicely...
Well, that's it, really, isn't it? Not much more to say. Sometimes, it's OK; sometimes distracting.
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Old 02-15-2014   #8
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Vignetting and softness at edges... what's not to like?
Not for every image but occasionally it makes something out of nothing to have flaws.
Of course not all will agree but I like it.

Canon ltm 50mm f1.2 at wide open and near infinity.
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Old 02-15-2014   #9
helenhill
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Hah to those that say 'Vignetting is a Flaw'
For Me it Adds Character, Atmosphere and takes you a step out of The boring hundrum of Reality
Hats off to 21 Super Angulon...a Classic Design, Vignetting & Fall off at its Best
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Old 02-15-2014   #10
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I wish they made a vignetting filter. Those software programs are not good. Here is a 28mm Pentax Super Takumar that I like for it's vignette:

Just a hint of vignette:

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Old 02-15-2014   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by back alley View Post
i think it can sometimes frame/focus an image nicely...
Yes, I think that sums it up. Adds a natural, subtle border to a frame, and sometimes will pleasantly darken a sky rather than it be washed out.

I'm happy to have a lens that does it, but would never add in post.
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Old 02-15-2014   #12
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Large planes of the same flat colour towards the edges can be a tad boring... I like adding a little vignetting sometimes.
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Old 02-15-2014   #13
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Sometimes I emphasize vignetting in my images to put some "focus" on the subject. I like it.

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Old 02-15-2014   #14
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I like vignetting that is a byproduct of lens design, such as the vignetting caused by an f/1.0 Noctilux. Photoshop vignetting just never looks right IMHO.
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Old 02-15-2014   #15
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I like to use light as my "vignette".
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Old 02-15-2014   #16
Monochrom
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Very interesting thread.

In fact i prefer lenses that vignette because that means a small front optical element which means less focus shift.

Iīve been studying focus shift for a long way and there is a relation between this frustrating flaw and larger front elements...no mystery when you understand how FS and vignette work.

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Old 02-15-2014   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monochrom View Post
Very interesting thread.

In fact i prefer lenses that vignette because that means a small front optical element which means less focus shift.

Iīve been studying focus shift for a long way and there is a relation between this frustrating flaw and larger front elements...no mystery when you understand how FS and vignette work.

BR
For us on Earth, would it be possible to elaborate on this subject. Or maybe clue us to a work that simply explains FS and Vignettings relationship. Thanks for the post.
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Old 02-15-2014   #18
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Vignetting does not bother me. If I don't have it - I often add it in post. Its an old photographers trick to add a vignette to focus the eye on the subject.


Usually it should be subtle...........................


Fiefy by yoyomaoz, on Flickr

But I don't mind going over the top a bit as quite often that works too..............


At Raffles by yoyomaoz, on Flickr


Through a glass darkly 10 by yoyomaoz, on Flickr


Chiaroscuro in a hood by yoyomaoz, on Flickr
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Old 02-15-2014   #19
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Old 02-15-2014   #20
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"it depends" - sometimes I like it, sometimes I want to get rid of it (not always easy). I quite often add subtle vignetting to portraits for reasons already mentioned by others, if the lens doesn't vignette as much as I'd like it to at the selected aperture.

I usually don't appreciate it in landscapes, but stopping down is not such a problem with them.
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Old 02-16-2014   #21
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Curses. I hate it when I pick my vote and it turns out to be the majority opinion. I used to shoot a 75mm Superangulon on a 5x7 - lots of vignetting. I learned to live with it.
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Old 02-16-2014   #22
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Here's another pro-vignetting vote. I like that it for a framing tool, to 'draw you in' almost as if you're peeking through a telescope at a scene. Also allows you to hide the otherwise boring four corners.

And yes, I've even been known to add it in post just… because I liked the effect.
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Old 02-16-2014   #23
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I like it but in moderation ... it can draw the eye to the centre of an image very effectively.

I don't have many lenses that do it so I tend to add it in post where appropriate.
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Old 02-16-2014   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris101 View Post
Curses. I hate it when I pick my vote and it turns out to be the majority opinion. I used to shoot a 75mm Superangulon on a 5x7 - lots of vignetting. I learned to live with it.
... this is why I seldom vote
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Old 02-16-2014   #25
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Back in the 70's I was using pieces of stiff paper of different shapes mounted in front of my lense for vignetting. It was very nice for close-ups of people, plants and other still -life objects.

Mike
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Old 02-16-2014   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charjohncarter View Post
For us on Earth, would it be possible to elaborate on this subject. Or maybe clue us to a work that simply explains FS and Vignettings relationship. Thanks for the post.
There is no correlation other than the typical relationship between optical aperture and aberrations, cjc.

Regarding the original question: I hate very much dislike vignetting when it's introduced outside the lens, like via filters or hoods. When it's part of the lens behavior it's mostly nice, if you don't need it, just close down the aperture a bit. Just another tool in the kit.



What's causing vignetting here, lens, fog or sun ?



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Old 02-16-2014   #27
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No more than "35mm" or "large format" or "colour film" are dirty words. As Roland said, another tool in the kit.

Cheers,

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Old 02-16-2014   #28
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Any other thoughts about vignetting?
I'm not so anal.


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Old 02-17-2014   #29
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Check out the Lomography web site for the new Petzval art lens. Artistic vignetting at it's best.

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Old 02-17-2014   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by film nut View Post
Check out the Lomography web site for the new Petzval art lens. Artistic vignetting at it's best.

MIke
Thanks for the tip although I have to say that's truly the most distracting bokeh I have ever seen. I would put this in same drawer as those ghastly mulit-prism things that were popular in the 1970s (at least those are now on eBay at a more realistic price: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hasselblad-m...-/261401063557)
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Contains the eye to the image....
Old 02-17-2014   #31
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Contains the eye to the image....

That's what I was once told by an acquaintance who professionally judges photo competitions...... Certain things count plus....

White mats only, if submissions are matted

Mat a bit longer on the bottom to weight the image toward teh bottom

Vignette helps to prevent the eye bleeding off the corners out of the image. Contains viewing into the image. Slight, of course.

He did critiques at our camera club, and pi__ed a lot of people off. However, I know he did do a lot of individual and panel judging on photo competitions and was called on frequently to do so.

One of the reasons I burn out on camera clubs so easily..... It's not about photography in most camera clubs. They tend to be overly social and more often about the politics and control. I walk......
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Old 02-17-2014   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charjohncarter View Post
For us on Earth, would it be possible to elaborate on this subject. Or maybe clue us to a work that simply explains FS and Vignettings relationship. Thanks for the post.

hello, of course iīll try to explain it simple.

Iīll talk about fast lenses but not aspherical fast lenses.

In order for a lens to be fast it must have a larger glass that can gather more light.
In order to do so the diameter of the glass must be increased.
and thus the aperture will achieve 1.4, 1.2, 0.95 etc which is a relation based on focal length, thats why the diam pupil of a 50mm lens at 1.4 is different than a 1.4 aperture of a 35mm focal length lens, bla, bla , bla...

With this clear we can talk about wether we want focus shift or vignette for supper...

the best example i can find about is the comparison tween v3 and v4 of the leica summicron 35mm.

The v3 vignettes but itīs focus shift is negligible, on the contrary the v4 which is famous and to my taste the most beautiful leica lens, has no vignette but tons of focus shift...i tested two copies and each one had the same FS, one different focus point for each aperture tested on my m9. I sold it immediatelly once noticed this....Also iīve made tests in various other lenses observing exactly the same behavior.

When you have already an f2 capability doesnīt mean you also have delt with vignette, for avoiding this thing you must increase further the front element in order to illuminate the corners...and doing this, means you are entering focus shift territory...

FS is produced when you set your rangefinder at a given distance with a large aperture then extreme peripheral light beams (of this increased aperture) enter the lens and hit the focal plane but donīt match it, the effect is rangefinder at 1mtr resulting focus at 95 cm! ...for shooting hydrants or dark park benches it doesnīt matter! but for making portraits itīs a miserale fail!

Then FS is the incapacity of the lens to direct these peripheral beams into the same point as the center part beams.
On the contray the beams of the center part of the lens donīt show this behavior since diffraction wonīt casue them the same misseffect, check a slow perfect lens as the best lens ever the elmar 5cm 3.5...

Vignetting is produced when larger apertures canīt illuminate frame edges.

And so i canīt stand missfocus, but i can live with vignette!

Bye!
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Old 02-17-2014   #33
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Monochrom, Thank you for that explanation. I thought it would be too difficult for me to understand but I do understand. I did a little pre-study on FS so I was able to not have to check that part out while reading. Again, thanks for the nice explanation. I have notice FS but didn't really know the cause. I wonder if SLR lenses are more or less prone to FS?

Anyway, I hope others will find this as enlightening as I did.
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Old 02-17-2014   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charjohncarter View Post
I wonder if SLR lenses are more or less prone to FS?
I can't see why it would matter, since with an SLR you are focussing through the lens you automatically take any focus shift into account. With a rangefinder you're relying on the RF to focus so any focus shift is a bad thing.
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Old 02-17-2014   #35
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Quote:
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I can't see why it would matter, since with an SLR you are focussing through the lens you automatically take any focus shift into account. With a rangefinder you're relying on the RF to focus so any focus shift is a bad thing.
It also depends on the camera. If you shoot manual focus but with a camera that stops down the lens while shooting then you have exactly the same problem - what you see isn't always what you get as in this case you are focusing wide open but might shoot at a different aperture.
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Old 02-17-2014   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monochrom View Post
The v3 vignettes but itīs focus shift is negligible, on the contrary the v4 which is famous and to my taste the most beautiful leica lens, has no vignette but tons of focus shift...i tested two copies and each one had the same FS, one different focus point for each aperture tested on my m9. I sold it immediatelly once noticed this....Also iīve made tests in various other lenses observing exactly the same behavior.
The 35/4 Summicron v4 does vignette significantly wide open, not much less than the v3, and so do her design cousings 40/1.4 Nokton and 40/2 Summicron, for instance. The Summicron v2 has a smaller rear element and vignettes more. Focus shift is closely related to the Seidel Aberrations (for example field curvature). Vignetting is not, at least not in general. You can build two lenses with the same Seidel Aberrations and identical focus shift but with different vignetting. Just put the wrong hood on your favorite lens and you will see.

Roland.
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Old 02-17-2014   #37
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I like vignetting.

Im not a big fan of distortion or resolution fall off, but I LIKE vignetting. never had a picture ruined by it, had a few made better by adding some.
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Old 02-17-2014   #38
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Quote:
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I can't see why it would matter, since with an SLR you are focussing through the lens you automatically take any focus shift into account. With a rangefinder you're relying on the RF to focus so any focus shift is a bad thing.
Ah, but the question and I'm treading on the OP's thread here: is focus shift greater, lesser or no difference from RF lenses. Still, the trend would be to get a fast lens (with a large piece of glass up front), and maybe some powerful ND filters if you wanted vignetting with a fast lens. Or am I wrong?

So, is that a reasonable way to create vignetting (without those stupid PS tricks) with both RF and SLR lenses.
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Old 02-17-2014   #39
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I'm in the "Doesn't bother me, I'll just fix it in post" camp.

Although "fix it in post" is more often adding it than removing it...

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Old 03-28-2014   #40
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I use vignetting at times. Especially with ancient Petzvals for Large format. I prefer the type caused by lens design field curvature or coma or spherical aberrations. As apposed to mechanical or software vignetting.
Here are a couple small ones, from a tiny Kern 25mm/1.5. I'll take what it gives.



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